Talk:Wu Chinese-speaking people

[Untitled]
Wu Yue refers to an ancient kingdom in the past and this article does not give sources that suggest people around shanghai region are actual descendant of Wu Yue. To not get the readers confuse, I suggesting changing this to Wu People(corresponding to the language they spoke) or Jiangnan People or Jiangnanese People. --Lennlin (talk) 15:52, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Apparently, there is an equivalent article in Chinese Wikipedia stating that they are Wuyue people, not Wu people. I believe that you are right, though. I think the Chinese wikipedia equivalent article is more confusing, though, in its appellation of Jiangnanese people/Wu people as Wuyue people. And Wu Yue isn't an ancient kingdom (certainly not a Warring States-era nor a Spring and Autumn era kingdom), it's a Ten Kingdom and Five dynasties-era kingdom which could have links to the development of Modern Wu culture, according to the article on the kingdom founded by Qian Liu. Chinese wikipedia states wikis as its 'links', so that could be bad judgment on my part. And Jiangnan refers to a specific part of Wuyue, namely southern Jiangsu and northern Zhejiang, the 'Yangtse Delta' region. The region encompasses the Shanghai Municipality, the southern part of Jiangsu Province, the southern part of Anhui Province, the northern part of Jiangxi Province, and the northern part of Zhejiang Province. 'Wuyue people' could refer to the Wu-speaking areas of China, which roughly corresponds with the territory of Wuyue. The only visible legacy that I am aware of are Qian Liu's improvements, temples to Qian Liu, Buddhist patronage, and persons with the surname of Qian in Wuyue. 'Jiangnan people' is defined by Taihu Wu dialect-speaking groups, with the exclusion of other Wu speaking groups. People of Wenzhou could be counted as Ou-yue as well as Wuyue people, but are certainly not Jiangnan people (unless if otherwise proven). Would you suggest if this article be changed to Wu-speaking peoples? Bloodmerchant (talk) 20:50, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Chinese Wikipedia sometimes are inaccurate but so are any other wiki-like websites. I think we can agree on that Jiangnan or Wuyue is off the list. If someone happens to do a Wenzhou People then certainly it should stay as Wenzhou people, not OuYue (although they speak oujiang dialect) but Ou People or OuJianger/ese for Wenzhou would be fine also. we can look at Fujianese or Cantonese as an example. However, Wu-speaking peoples fits but sounds werid compare to others. I hope someone else can provide a better term. --Lennlin (talk) 21:49, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * *The term Wu-speaking peoples fits the criteria for it, but it does sound stilted and odd. I feel that Chinese Wikipedia is still inaccurate in its regards to consider those peoples as Wuyue minxi, Jiangnan minxi, and Jiangzhe minxi. Oddly enough, the Wu region is synonymous with Wuyue. So I guess Wu-speaking peoples fits it accurately, as a macro- Han ethnic subgroup. I think the change for this article and the article in Chinese wikipedia should be only be pertain to people of which Jiangnan/Wuyue is stictly applied. In other words, I am confused as to which approach to take. So there are two feasible options:

In my opinion, I think the latter option is the more feasible of the two. It's safe to say that the Wu region/Wuyue is a part of Jiangnan, and the Wuyue region does not include southern Zhejiang and parts of Northern Fujian. (Though they were a part of the Kingdom of Wuyue) Wuyue, by strict definition, is a part of Jiangnan, specifically refers to the area around Suzhou and Shaoxing, in reference to the capitals of the ancient kingdoms of Wu and Yue, which are largely Wu-speaking. Southern Wu speaking peoples should be separate from the Jiangnan people and have their own articles, such as Wenzhou, Quzhou, or Taizhou people. Taihu Wu dialect-speaking peoples are just as likely to call themselves Jiangnanese people as well as Wuyue people, if they were to group themselves as a Han regional subgroup. There are also non Wu-speaking Jiangnanese people, such as those in Nanjing who speak Jianghuai Mandarin. So in this article, it refers to Wu-speaking people of Jiangnan, who live in the Wuyue region. Bloodmerchant (talk) 03:02, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Change the title of the topic to "Wu-speaking peoples", while retaining its original content
 * 2) Rename to "Jiangnanese people" or retain the name "Wuyue people" ( preferably Jiangnanese people Actually, it depends on the situation), but changing its focus specifically to peoples of Shanghai, southern Jiangsu, and northern Zhejiang- areas of Taihu Wu dialect speaking peoples, as Jiangnan is mostly populated by people who speak Taihu Wu dialects. (That change should also be applied to Chinese Wikipedia)


 * um, I think we should do like this, put every groups of people under the name of the province / grouped by region. Like the article Fujianese (i'm fujianese ^^). For example, Fuzhou, Xiamen ,Putian under Fujianese or difference dialects of Xiang under Hunanese. We can do Jiangnanese and put regional people in and put links to pages like Ningbo People. I think this way, the articles would be more categorized and easy to understand. However, there are still problems like where would Hakka go because they are in guangdong,fujiang,jiangxi, and even hunan.  OR OR SECOND CHOICE!! put all Min dialects under Min Chinese People by changing Fujianese to Min Chinese People and we can do it for Wu Chinese People ,Xiang Chinese People, Jin Chinese people, Mandarin Chinese People and Gan Chinese People. BUT don't delete pages like Shanghainese People, just put a link to the page under the article Wu Chinese People. THIRD CHOICE, like the second choice but just change it to Wu Speaking People. I think i would go for second one, I hope I don't confuse you more lol --Lennlin (talk) 17:53, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I like your second choice better, so I have an idea: I should change this article to Wu-speaking peoples, but also make a new article on Wuyue/Jiangnanese people, as a subgroup of Wu-speaking peoples, roughly analogous to creating an article for Quzhou or Oujiang people. And then possible articles such as Shanghainese (for Jiangnanese) and Ruian people (for Oujiang), for example.

So there are three (basic) tiers of regional subgroups:
 * 1) First by macro-regional subgroup such as Min Chinese-speaking peoples (or Min Chinese people?), Gan Chinese-speaking peoples, or Xiang Chinese-speaking peoples. That's pretty simple.
 * 2) Second by a more narrowly defined subgroup such as Jiangnan/Wuyue people, Puxian or Min Nan people.
 * 3) Third, narrow those groups into smaller regional groups such as Ningbonese, Shanghainese, Hainanese, etc. By the way, I've already created an article about Hunanese people, which is roughly analogous to Xiang Chinese-speaking peoples in Hunan, Sichuan, and Jiangxi, since Hunan is the origin of Xiang Chinese. So for most regional subgroups, they fit quite nicely, such as Wu-speaking peoples, Hunanese/Xiang-speaking Chinese people and Hakka people. (As for Hakka people, they are widespread throughout China, as I have heard of Hakka radio stations in Xi'an) But for Min speaking peoples (especially for Min Nan speakers), it could have a possible fourth and even fifth tiers, because from what I know, even though, for example, Chaozhou, Hainanese, Zhenan, Leizhou and Fujianese (of Quanzhou-Zhangzhou) speak variants of Min Nan, do not consider themselves to be the same Min Nan people, especially between Chaozhou people and Fujianese people. Not to be confused further, people of Wenzhou prefecture speak Zhenan Min Nan and/or Oujiang Wu (In this case, there are two Wenzhou dialects, one Wu and the other Min Nan, two Rui'an dialects, as well as two separate dialects- Min and Wu in each part of Wenzhou prefecture). Also, something interesting came up. Since Jin is spoken in nearly all of Shanxi, maybe Jin-speaking Chinese are Shanxinese, even Shanxi is called Jin. Bloodmerchant (talk) 00:36, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yea! Min Nan Variation are confusing, there some differences in Fujianese too (small though).

As you see Minnan have too much and we can't seriously make all of them. I suggest only make the important ones like Teochew, Hainan, Leizhou, Zhenan ,Southern Fujian (Hokkien/Standard Minnan)people and disregard making a Minnan People.

If you take the "Wu Speaking People" / "Min/Mandarin/Jin/Xiang/Gan/Hakka/Cantonese/Ping Speak People" then I will fully support it. it would work for every regional dialect. Whether or not it should be Wu Chinese People or Wu Speaking People, you make the choose because i'm fine with both--Lennlin (talk) 02:52, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * They have an article on Hui'an Maidens(as Hui'an dialect is a variant of Zhenan Min), I think the Zhenan Min people and the Wu-speaking people of Wenzhou prefecture are one people (by geography). So if there ever was an article on Zhenan Min people, they should me merged with the Wu-speaking Wenzhou/Oujiang people. Bloodmerchant (talk) 15:20, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Alright, If you start the Wu Speaking People or Wu Chinese People then I will fix Min and others. hopefully all these articles are in a similar form. --Lennlin (talk) 23:14, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

History
I'm having bigggg problem with the "origin" section. It look like it's an article about Wuyue kingdom and it's history (let me remind that Chinese Wikipedia have no real sources). This is about Wu speaking people and their origin. So please I request anyone to change it and cite the proper sources otherwise I will remove them.--LLTimes (talk) 22:07, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

There could be a mention of Jianghuai Mandarin speaking people, since in my guess, they were originally culturally economically and probably "ethnically" tied to the "Wu" culture. All before they got "mandarinized" > There used to be a Wu kingdom (Yangwu) around the Huai river, and having its capital at Yangzhou, what's more, there still is a substratum of Wu consonants soundings in Jianghuai mandarin, tilting towards some to be defined ties. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.161.197.86 (talk) 11:33, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry to burst your so-called 'Goetian' bubble but traditionally, most Wu speakers dislike being related to 'Kaon Pon Nyin' (People from North of the [Yangtze] River) and even consider it to be an insult. It is especially extremely insulting to Shanghainese who have at least some ancestry from the Jiangbei region (or even none at all!). Sorry if it offends you, but it is quite obvious when the term 'Kaon Poh' (North of the [Yangtze] River) is even considered to be a synonym for stupid or moronic. Although there is a Wu substrate in Jianghuai Mandarin, most Wu speakers dislike being related to Jianghuai speakers; and even Jianghuai speakers in areas bordering Wu-speakers to the point their dialect resembles very much like Wu do not consider themselves to be the same as Wu-speakers. Thank you for your concern. Bloodmerchant (talk) 23:07, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

This article needs references
Only one reference is offered, which doesn't even mention any ethnic group identifying as Wu or Wuyue, only the amount of speakers of the Wu language(s?) saɪm duʃan Talk|Contribs 09:35, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

So...
Does anyone outside of Wikipedia ever refer to these people as Wuyue? Wu is Suzhou. Yue is Shaoxing. They ain't the same. The people and cultures ain't the same. Afaik, China's never considered them the same. Add authoritative sources to this article, but comment at greater length at Talk:Wuyue culture which (afaik) isn't an actual Thing. — Llywelyn II   13:28, 26 August 2023 (UTC)


 * You do often see the two bundled together in early sources, like 楚 and 荊. It's true that they were never actually one thing, but sometimes a shorthand when making some ethnocentric comparison. No opinion on move. Folly Mox (talk) 12:21, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Similarly Wu people and Wu-speaking people both redirect here. Either is a more name than the current silly one. Move as soon as possible. — Llywelyn II   14:22, 26 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Still not moved, months later. 166.62.226.9 (talk) 23:47, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅. 源義信 (talk) 03:52, 16 May 2024 (UTC)