Talk:Wuxing (Chinese philosophy)

Theory

 * Even when we know now the electrons, not the positive charge flow in the circuit, the definition of electric current is not abandoned because the model still works despite the invalid underlying theory.

This is a misrepresentation of the theory of electromagnetism. The definition of electric current is in no way invalidated by the fact that electrons are negatively charged. The definition is J=dρ/dt, and this definition gives no special place to either positive or negative charge.

I'm changing it to an example that hardly anyone will understand, but at least it's factually accurate. -- Tim Starling

-- This is incomprehensible. The statement that a scientific model does not have to be valid to be useful makes no sense.


 * At first sight, the theory behind the five elements seems to be very unscientific. However, if one thinks of it as a model and scaffolding to build knowledge on, one may find the system intriguing.  Even the western scientific model does not have to be valid to be useful.  One example is classical electrodynamics - even though it suffers fundamental problems such as infinite field energy and acausal acceleration, it is still widely used. By the same token, the five elements system is a useful model regardless how unscientific it may seem to be

-- User:Roadrunner

5 "Elemental" Phases Are All the Same Around the World
This is a theory..

In understanding the cyclical elements, we shall rely on the traditional Wu Xing arrangement alongside the contemporary Wiccan arrangement of the classical Greek Phases. I shall use parallel examples of the classical Babylonian 'elemental' phases.

The question of 'physical' elements is not of consequence in any philosophical arrangement of cycles, whether eastern or western. Rather than labeling the "phases" or "walks" with physical substance, we can instead "colour" these cyclical patterns. Before we break into this, first, one must understand the true orbital flow of our planet relative to our season changes. It is after the Winter solstice in which the initial spark of Yang (projective) energy is truly born, considering that the days become longer after the beginning of Winter. Thus, climatic changes observed during Spring had already taken place on a "cosmic" scale back in Winter...

During Winter, we enter the 'Green' spectral energy phase. It's climatic traits manifest during the Spring, but during Winter, its cosmic energy traits are occurring. This 'Green' flow may correlate with either the Chinese phase of Water (Stream on the Pakua), the Greek element of Earth or the Chaldean element of the Sea. During the Spring, we enter the energy spectral phase of the 'Yellow.' Its energies climatically manifest during the summer when the sun is strongest. "Yellow" energy may be associated with the Chinese element of Wood (Lightning and Wind) and the Greek and Babylonian elements of Air. The hallmarks of this energy phase is forward optimistic thinking and cognitive awakeness.. During the Summer, our world enters the "Red" energy phase. This phase of transformation is representative of the light and warmth which follows combustion, thus it is a period of relative stillness and inner stability when compared to the flammable 'yellow' phase. Its traits correspond with seasonal changes observed visibly during Autumn. "Red" is associated with the philosophical Chinese and Greek elements of Fire and the Chaldean element of Light. During Autumn, our planet enters the "Blue" energy phase. "Blue" is a colour of internal serenity, slumber and rest. During the Winter, reminiscent climatic traits become visible. "Blue" energy is associated with the Chinese element of Metal (Heaven and Lake), the Greek element of Water and the Babylonian element of Heaven. It is associated with the theoretical substance of aether in modern physics. This "element" represents substance of formless potential. Both the Chinese in some respect (through the Lake) and the Greeks have associated this phase with Water. However, this "phase" also enacts traits reminiscent of physical characteristics of pure metals such as iron, silver and platinum- hence the Chinese proper association. Neither the Chinese nor the Greeks wished to associate their elements with theoretical forms of matter which were then beyond grasp, hence the Greeks called this phase "water" and the Chinese "metal."

Safe to believe, the Chinese signs of the Ox, Snake and Rooster are "Green" as they correspond to the Earth ptolemaic astrolgical signs. The Tiger, Horse and Dog are "Yellow" as they correspond to the ptolemaic air signs. The Dragon, Monkey and Rat are "Red" as they correspond to the Fire ptolemaic signs. The Rabbit, Goat and Pig are "Blue" as they correspond to the ptolemaic Water star signs.

Did some editing
I considered it somewhat inappropriate that this page and Zang Fu theory were linking to Western medicine entries about organs, and have threfore created corresponding (Zang) and (Fu) stubs, linked to those where I considered it appropriate and moved some content from Pericardium to Pericardium (Zang), putting in some appropriate linking text instead.

Also deleted 'hair' from the list corresponding to the Metal element, since the body hair is Metal and the head hair is Water (Maciocia, The Foundations of Chinese Medicine) - leaving it there could create potential for confusion. User:NickArgall

add
wood matter is yin metal air energy is yang left months table information arctic antarctic difference etc.

Countries
In an old version of this article, the following correspondence between the elements and some countries were noted:

Earth - China

Metal - Hong Kong

Water - Japan

Wood - Taiwan

Fire - South Korea

Why was this removed? Answer: The correspondence is wrong and probably has no source. Hong Kong is not West of China so it can't be Metal. Similarly, Japan is not North, and South Korea is not South. Taiwan is East, but I highly doubt it's big enough to warrant an entire phase/agent for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.216.186.113 (talk) 09:29, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose merging Gogyo into Wuxing (Chinese philosophy), as per the earlier Talk:Gogyo suggestion of User:Mazamadao. Gogyo is simply the Japanese language translation of the Chinese Wuxing and no compelling argument for its retention as a separate article has been made. As Gogyo is only a stub, created by a (now blocked) disruptive editor and maintained by their socks, it seems sensible to merge the two articles. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:27, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I would endorse your proposal, since, as the article itself said, "Gogyo" is just Japanese for "Wuxing". In fact, it is the only thing this entire article says! Furthermore, I checked the history of the article, and I found that it was a redirect to Wuxing from 2007 to 2014, and a disambiguation page until 2020! Maybe we can mention the Japanese term at the beginning of the Wuxing article? Either way, the "Gogyo" article isn't very useful! SleepTrain456 (talk) 02:16, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Support The previous edits on Gogyo by User talk:Zongqi were moot at all, merging to Wuxing (Chinese philosophy) is more understandable. UU (talk) 15:52, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ Klbrain (talk) 07:06, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Sources for Section on Ming Neiyin?
I cannot find a source for the chart under the heading Ming Neiyin. There is no source listed in this article, nor is this chart referenced in the main article "Heavenly Stems", nor does the book from which the "Heavenly Stems" article is sourced mention anything about "Fortress Earth" or "Forest Wood" (or any of the other listed names, as far as I can tell). Finally, I have failed to find any source on the web that discusses this information (except for a few dozen sites that have simply copy/pasted this article).

At the very least, there needs to be a "citation needed" note, but I can find no evidence that this information is accurate, historically or otherwise. VoxAdActa (talk) 21:23, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

The Days and Planets don't make sense
There's a table under the "Cosmology and feng shui" section. In antiquity, only Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn were visible in the sky. And even if there were eight planets, Bagua has no association with them. Also, the Chinese Calendar uses nine or ten day weeks, not five days as this table seems to suggest. My guess is that someone tried connecting the days of the week with the planets, but that was done in western culture as part of Hellenistic astronomy. 72.216.186.113 (talk) 09:21, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Quincunx or pentagram?
After scrolling through pages of images relating to the wuxing, I noticed that the pentagram arrangement shown in the article only ever appears in computer-illustrated diagrams, while any diagrams of the wuxing featured in older documents and emblems use a quincunx arrangement with Earth in the centre and the other phases in the four corners, corresponding to the cardinal directions. This suggests that the pentagram is just a convenient representation of the traditionally tabulated relationships between the phases, but not a traditional representation itself. If sources discussing the iconography could be found, it would make sense to replace the current image with a more traditional one. Albie&#39;s relation of misfortune (talk) 12:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Update: ofc. this is not a reliable source, but there are some good pointers at https://elementaljapan.com/2021/09/23/solving-the-puzzle-of-the-pentagram-and-the-five-phases-in-japan/. Albie&#39;s relation of misfortune (talk) 14:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)