Talk:Wyandot people

Iroquois of the Haudenosaunee
Correct me if I'm wrong, I think the terms Iroquois and Haudenosaunee are interchangeable, so it's tautology to write "Iroquois of the Haudenosaunee" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.73.8.227 (talk) 19:36, 23 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Haudenosaunee is what they call themselves. Every tribe has what the French or English named them and their true name they went by before that time period. 2605:A601:AAD6:5000:C82B:ACA3:1135:FD5 (talk) 01:26, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Clans or tribes?
"The Petun nation, the tribes who lived around Georgian Bay in southern-central Ontario, were further divided into Bear, Cord, Deer, and Rock tribes." - it seems to me based on what I know of the Iroquois proper that these would have been *clans*, not tribes, but I am certainly no expert... Anyone got a reference? Brianski 21:24, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The history of these people is complex and hard to summarize in a short encyclopedia article. There is a very good analysis of the interrelationships of the languages and tribes in the article by John Steckley, which I added as a source.  Briefly, these people were beaten by the Anishinabek to the North, the Iroquois (Hadenosaunee) to the south and east, the French and then the English.  The English and Iroquois pretty well finished them off.  Many were assimilated by the Iroquois, others were displaced to the east (Quebec) and south (Kansas and Oklahoma).


 * Note that Steckley says that it is unclear as to whether the Bear, Rock, Cord and Deer were clans, moitees or tribes. He uses "tribes," so I went with that. Sunray 07:45, 2003 Dec 8 (UTC)


 * Oh, heh, yeah I read that article just a few minutes ago, before I saw your response. Since it talks about a Huron "Bear tribe" I must be wrong. Nevermind me :)! Brianski 21:51, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Those would be clans or groups of that tribe that fled together to other tribes. 2605:A601:AAD6:5000:C82B:ACA3:1135:FD5 (talk) 01:27, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I am from the Wolf Clan and am a Wyandotte citizen. This is how I know. All this information is passed down from ancestors and our tribal nation. 2605:A601:AAD6:5000:C82B:ACA3:1135:FD5 (talk) 01:29, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Wyandots in 18th century Ohio country
Discussion relating to Colonel William Crawford and the Crawford expedition moved to Talk:William Crawford (soldier)

Meaning of Hure
"the name referred to a hure, the rough-haired head of wild boars". Hure also means the nose of the boars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.82.36.55 (talk • contribs), 21 February 2006

Origins of the word 'Huron'
The article states that it was Gabrielle Lalemant who proposed that the word originated in the French 'hure'. I think you will find that in the Relation of 1639, it is Jérôme Lalemant who writes of a French soldier seeing the hair fashion of a Wendat: ‘[T]his fashion of wearing the hair making their heads look to him like those of boars [hures], led him to call these barbarians “Hurons;” and this is the name that has clung to them ever since.’ (Reuben Gold Thwaites, 'The Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents.' Vol. 16, pp 229 - 231.


 * You are probably right. This online source speaks of three different Lalemant working for the Jesuit order.


 * http://www.wyandot.org/lalemant.htm


 * The three could have easily been mixed up. I originally wrote "Father Lalemant". Someone must have added the first name later on. We would have to look at the article's revision history. For sure however, it is Gabriel and not Gabrielle. The first is masculin, the second feminin. :-) -- Mathieugp

Tobacco
Re: removal of growing tobacco text -- I think tobacco was grown that far north, but I can't remember the source of info offhand. Tobacco was grown in England in the 1600s, brought from the New World, until the practice was outlawed for the benefit of Virginia. If I remember, I'll look for a source when I have better acccess. Pfly 03:11, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Toujours les Hurons
There is high probability that the Frenchman's reference to the boar-like appearance of these Indians was directly related to their hair. The first Indians observed by the Missionaries and settlers were often scouts that commonly were engaged in hand-to-hand skirmishes. As a matter of protection, long hair was a liability. The cropped stripe down the middle was proof of virility without the easy grab. Dixonsnt 22:19, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Image; Hairdress
The article could use some paintings or photos of the Wyandot. A magazine I read in the 1960's showed Wyandot warriors wearing hairdresses made of stag antlers. Did the artist invent this or does it have a historical factual basis? Das Baz, aka Erudil 19:12, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that the article, like many others, would be improved by the presence of images, but why do they have to be images of stereotypical romantic "warrior" or "shaman" figures from the past? The Wyandot are a living culture, personally I'd like to see images that capture the Wyandot people and places as they exist today. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 20:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay, let's compromise. Let's have images both of the old Wyandot, shamans and warriors, and the modern Wyandot, as they are today. Das Baz, aka Erudil 21:21, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Algonquin or Iroquois?
I studied that they were the only Algonquin non Iroquoian farming group on the st. Lawrence river Zakster22` (talk) 20:11, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * You evidently misunderstood or have confused Hurons/Wyandots with a different group. —Kevin Myers 21:27, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Disambiguation
Should there also be a Wyandot (disambiguation) page to list all the articles with this or similar names (Wyandotte)? Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:13, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 * see for example Huron (disambiguation) Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:37, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Primary source
The following was dropped into the middle of the article. Perhaps a more knowledgeable editor can integrate it into the article?

Death Notice from the State's Advocate, Milton Pennsylvania published 8 February 1827"Died - at Upper Sandusky, on Tuesday the 2nd of January, the celebrated Chief of the Wyandot Nation, BETWEEN-THE-LOGS. He was eminent for his eloquence and the conspicuous relation he held to the Nation as their Chief Speaker. He lived and died a friend to the American government. He was the first that embraced religion among his brethren and the nation: from his firm piety he was appointed leader and afterward exhorter in the Methodist E. Church, in each of these, as every other station, he filled with dignity and faithfulness. He died in full triumph of the Christian faith and with his last breath declared the goodness of God." {State's Advocate 8 February 1827}

-Uyvsdi (talk) 06:30, 30 April 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Move discussion in progress
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Mantle Site, Whitchurch–Stouffville, Ontario
Hard to understand why there is no reference of any kind to the very large 15th century Huron village, called the "Mantle Site", excavated in 2012 near Whitchurch–Stouffville in Ontario. If it is true that this is the biggest Huron village ever discovered, does it not merit the title 'national capital', and thus mention here on the Huron Wikipedia page? (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantle_Site,_Wendat_(Huron)_Ancestral_Village) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.243.152.118 (talk) 23:44, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 10:55, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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Slight Confusion
I ought to point out that this article seems to largely pertain to what is now the Huron-Wyandot Nation, not really to any of the historic groups who made them up. Below are a few things I've been able to discover that I think ought to be addressed. Sorry about the amount of info, but I think it's important to address it all.


 * The Wyandot are one of the most famous tribes associated with the Cleveland region of Ohio & the Cleveland museum hosts many artifacts from their time.
 * The Wyandot were apparently caught up in the move of tribes in Ohio getting pushed continuously west by white settlers during the 18th & 19th centuries. They eventually ended up in Michigan & appear to have chosen to move to Canada, where they merged with the Huron, after the War of 1812.
 * You can see in this article here, http://genealogytrails.com/ohio/early_indian_migration_in_ohio.htm, (I've had trouble getting people to pay attention to it, but it's a transcription of a speech from an Archaeology convention & Ohio has a history of the experts seeming to know far more than the general public & not appearing to be aware of that.) that the Wyandot seem to have split off from the Petun, who fractured during the Beaver Wars. A third nation noted by West Virginia historians as the Tiontatacaga, or Guiandotte, also appeared & it seems the name Wyandot was a variation on that. This suggests that they were known to be connected in some way, despite being separated from one another by the unsettled Mahoning Valley of Ohio-Pennsylvania. Also, this map, https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3300.ct000656/ , notes a group called the Kentatentonga, who may be the same as the Tiontatacaga, as they come from the approximate region the Tiontatacaga claim to have been chased away from & are also marked as "Destruit," or destroyed-- this being exactly between the lands of the Wyandot & Petun.

You can also find a great deal of information on the previous point under the Other Historic Groups section here-- [] & under the Monongahelan section (including info explicitly concerning the Huron, on their own) here-- Prehistory_of_West_Virginia Annoyingly, there used to be more relevant information on the Tiontatacaga, but it seems to have vanished from the page(s) during revisions. Note, please don't change anything on either of these pages. They are, presumably, kept to hold together relevant archaeological & historical information that is important as archaeological sites are, apparently, endangered in the regions of West Virginia & Kentucky & I have not seen a more complete record for any other states in the U.S. on wikipedia.


 * I do realize that villages not belonging to the Petun have been found on the U.S. side of the Niagara River. I have heard that the Neutral Nation had two villages close to Niagara Falls that gave them control over the resources there & a fair edge in the regional economy-- but only two. Again, I believe the rest of the region between the Genesee, Alleghany & Cuyahoga Rivers belonged to the Petun until the tribe split. We also know for a fact that the New York Petun migrated to Canada & merged with the Huron, who may have moved west at the exact same time & they are often depicted as separate tribes around the end of the 17th century, post Beaver Wars.
 * I don't know whether the Huron tribe was named so first, or Lake Huron, but a lot of early maps show Lakes Michigan & Huron collectively referred to as Lake Michigan. [] So, I would have to guess the tribe's name came first.
 * The Huron keep being labeled as one of the most numerous Iroquoian nations that existed. The largest archaeological sites for Iroquoian peoples were found north of Lake Ontario & along the north side of the St. Lawrence River, so I would have to say that that is them.
 * I don't know if this helps, but in the Cayuga Dictionary, there is a reference to a tribe called the "Lake People," or (I don't have it in front of me, so bear in mind) Kanandaghono. They aren't mentioned alongside the other tribes in the back of the dictionary, but you can find the term if you look up the word for "Lake" in the English-Cayuga section. I feel fairly certain that these are the Huron, or whatever tribe was north of Lake Ontario. That probably means that they are also the mythical Canada Nation.
 * There is some speculation that the Huron & Neutral Nation attacked the Mascouten . I don't think that's true & I believe that the Iroquoian group who came from the Lake Huron-Detriot River region who helped the Neutrals in that war were actually the Erie. A few people say the war occurred during the 1730s, which is not contemporaneous with the Beaver Wars & the Mascouten are already noted as being chased out of Michigan by 1688 & existing much further south. [] In fact, trying to make all of this make sense, I'm almost positive that that conflict actually started the Beaver Wars to begin with, not the Huron attacking the Petun. If the information in the Ohio genealogy page is correct, it appears that the war continued on into the Petun because they may have harbored the Ontario from the combined Erie & Neutral forces. By the way, the Neutrals were also called Attawaderon, & you can also see a similar term named on the Baptiste map that I noted in point 3. Plus, the Cat Nation, or Eries, are also mentioned in the oral histories of the Ojibwe/ Odawa/ Saulteaux & were published in the book "Johnson, Basil "The Manitous: The Spiritual World of the Ojibway". 1995." It does not mention where they came from or who they were, but given other information, it seems fairly obvious. Plus, Cat/ Chat has become an accepted term for them on their Wiki page, []

Bobbotronica (talk) 17:58, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Finally, I know the current model of the Huron's involvement in the Beaver Wars dictates that they attacked the Petun, spawned the Wyandot & migrated west all at once. I find this unlikely that they would attack such a small territory that was separated from them by the Neutral Nation & would be difficult to keep ahold of, or that they would then abandon the Wyandot to their fate & move to protect the Petun whom they had just attacked. Plus, there had to be a reason territory was abandoned to allow them to move west in the first place.

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The section "War" has to be removed or rewritten
Most info in this item is informative, but the part under "War" makes no sense. It gives no useful information and only creates a lot of questions. So please either rewrite of remove this item.--Codiv (talk) 13:58, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

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Relationship among groups
Is the following correct?

Iroquoian peoples
 * Wyandot people
 * Also known as the Huron.
 * Originally from the North American Great Lakes region.
 * Iroquoian-speaking peoples.
 * Displaced by war in the mid-17th century from the North Country, especially by the powerful Five Nations of the Iroquois League.
 * Huron Confederacy (or Wendat Confederacy)
 * A confederation of four major tribes: Bear, Deer, Hawk, and Wolf.
 * Attignawantan: A tribe within the Huron-Wendat Confederacy.
 * Tionontati (or Tobacco/Petun): Historically known as the Tobacco people, allies of the Huron-Wendat, lived in the Blue Mountains area.
 * Battled against the Iroquois Confederacy.


 * Iroquois Confederacy
 * Also known as the Five Nations or Haudenosaunee.
 * Iroquoian-speaking group.
 * Comprising the Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, Seneca, and later the Tuscarora tribes.
 * Displaced the Wyandot from the North Country in the mid-17th century.

Algonquian peoples Brett (talk) 14:30, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * A large linguistic and cultural group of Native Americans.
 * Includes tribes such as the Mi'kmaq, Blackfeet, and Cheyenne.
 * Algonquian-speaking group.


 * Nice! I like your style here with the bullet points. Yes. These are correct. There is different dialects that we speak of Iroquois, Wyandotte/Wendat/Waⁿdat, being Northern Lake Iroquoian.
 * -Wolf Clan member, Wyandotte Citizen 2605:A601:AAD6:5000:8473:2F60:8DD4:B6B4 (talk) 01:38, 20 September 2023 (UTC)