Talk:Xenogears/Archive 1

The use of the word Oriental
I had to change this. I'm asian myself and I don't really mind this word personally, but I do know many many other people who would take serious offense to that word used to describe anything in Asia. Careful with that. --Kiyosuki 03:17, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Bleh, I thought I had gotten rid of all the oriental words. Thanks for picking that one out! Deckiller 03:50, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but do we really need to be that PC? I understand that some people may be offended, but I'm just playing devil's advocate here. How many people have to find a term offensive before all of society need to bow do to their sensitivity? And have you read the article on the word? "In popular usage, the Orient is most often used in reference to the countries of East Asia, including China, Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Vietnam, and sometimes the rest of Southeast Asia. The term "Oriental" refers to people, goods and culture from those areas” It's completely nuetral, and is the only context the word is being used in here. Also “Major objections to the use of Oriental are chiefly limited to North America. Its use is much less controversial…..in Asia where, especially in south-east Asian countries, the word is in comparatively widespread usage.” Widespread usage in the region it's supposed to be offensive too.


 * Usually I think people are a bit too sensitive, and I welcome controversy on topics. However, to many people oriental has the same meaning as nigger. Regardless of why or weither its really needed, I do whole heartedly believe that Wikipedia should try to avoid accidental racist insults. Thats one of the few things. It just is unecessary. Even if some don't take offense to it, if even a notable percentage do then I think its a hassle that just doesn't need to happen. I think we should save our energy for arguments that should actually happen. And its not just limited to North America, I've been to Japan many times and China a few, and there's a lot of people there who consider Oriental to be a Western derragatory term for far eastern countries.


 * As I said, I don't really care myself. There's many who share my sentiment as well, but its just a little thing thats best avoided. Basic courtousy.--Kiyosuki 08:41, 18 December 2005 (UTC)


 * How can you consider "oriental" offensive when its definition is not derogatory? Of course "eastern" wouldn't attract as much attention even though it would mean the exact same thing based on context.

Just how hard is it to say asian? Seriously.


 * Newcomer to the series and this entry. I read it over and oriental wouldn't be so much offensive as it would be a word choice error born entirely out of willful ignorance of embarassing depth. The game has obvious references to japanese culture; to chinese culture; and to southeastern pacific islands customes. To say 'oriental' in all those cases would be wrong. It would be same if I lumped Matrix, Munich, and Predator together and labeled them all "action movies". Asdfff 08:02, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Oriental is not a bad word, nor is it racist. This action = denied.

Is the term Occidental offensive to western culture? We really shouldn't have to change the language we've all agreed upon for many years because some people are too stupid to understand what a word means. I mean what if Germans decided Germany was an offensive term and insisted everyone call them Deutchland, would we stop calling them Germany? Give me a break people. 70.191.222.17 23:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite/Reorganized
Did a lot of work on the structure and overall writing of the article... Have a quick request though. If you want the NGE - Xenogears section to remain in the article, please expand it a bit. As it stands, it doesn't quite fit with the rest of the article divisions, and I want it to remain simply because its something that deserves a bit of attention. I'll gather my thoughts and come back later to better summarize the comparison I think. Charles M. Reed 00:01, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Since I think the discussion on organising this article is relevant to organising Xenogears articles as a whole, I've found a few floating around on the cleanup pages (Towns and Locations and Factions ). I've added them to the Xenogears category by they need some real work done to them if they're to be relevant articles. I think organising with the category should be considered with any further rewrites and reorganisations because there is a lot of content and information in this game and it certainly has the potential to fill a few articles. --FlooK 08:34, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

What is the best way to increase the relevance of the NGE section? It looks fairly complete as of right now, the only real lack of anything is a section dedicated to similarities between it and Xenogears, and the infatuation Tetsuya Takahashi has with the series. Believe me i have heard dozens of "self made anime aficionado's" claim Xenogears is nothing more than Evangelion REHASH. Xenogears™©® 07:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Evangelion and FF
I removed the links to Evangelion and FF. I believe that we should keep only the necessary links - links that further explain and expand the item, or are of necessity.

We should discuss FF's influences to XG, rather than put up a link without any hint of its relations to the topic. This will only lead to confusion for newbies to the topic.

Evangelion is more of an item of comparison to XG; and not an item that further expands on the topic. Other than that, it already has a link on the topic's body.

-Virgofenix

I'm putting in links back to Evangelion and 2001 as things the game references. I'm also cleaning up the story section, and if it's any indication of the article as a whole, this needs to be cleaned up - way too many unecessary adjectives, and an excess of wordiness.

-Bobquest3

Episode V
The article contains the following sentence: "Xenogears is actually the fifth installment of a series of six, but no Xenogears games were made before this one.". What does this mean? If there were no other Xenogears games made before this one, then how can it be the fifth installment? Does it say "Number 5 of 6" in the intro or something? --4.246.6.169 05:23, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Xenogears' ending credits has a quick flash of the word "Episode 5". -Virgofenix


 * It's the same situation with Star Wars, George Lucas created the fourth installment of the saga before created the first three. Also, take a look at the Xenosaga page for more info. --ThatNateGuy 04:22, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps this has something to do with Xenosaga? --Agentsirus


 * Xenosaga supposedly is a reworking of the series. However since it never reached episode V we won't know for sure. Xenogears is suppose to be the fifth in a much larger saga much how George Lucas named Star Wars episode 4 as previously mentioned. - Kageden

NPOV
BKidd, it's great that you're describing this game, but remember that a) we're trying to write an encyclopedia here. That means we try and present a balanced picture of things, not taking a fan's perspective.  Please read the article on neutral point of view at some stage.

Your claim that Xenogears has "proven to be one of the most memorable and controversial games ever released", shows a bit of a lack of perspective. It's like claiming that, say, Limp Bizkit is the greatest band ever. I read computer gaming magazines fairly regularly, and I don't even remember Xenogears. (I'm not saying it's not a great game. It might well be). Compared to the controversy caused by, say, Wolfenstein 3D, or Doom, the fuss caused by Xenogears is pretty minimal. Nor have you explained what genre the game belongs in. It sounds like an RPG, but I'm frankly not sure from your article.

Like I said, it's really excellent that you're putting in this effort, but try to write your articles for other people who might not be so familiar or enthused with the game and we'll all get much more use from that substantial effort. --Robert Merkel

I've lived in modern technological countries for several decades and I've never heard of it before. :-)

It's a relatively hard-to-find game. Just because something isn't big doesn't mean it doesn't have a profound impact. Does this mean we should dumb down articles on rare paintings or topics that people aren't familiar with? Sigh.

That's why I amended the text to read "for the Playstation". I'll work more on it soon, because it's not that big a deal even within the Playstation universe. -- NickelKnowledge

Wolfenstein or Doom could be a great popular success, but nothing compared to the shock xenogears did to his fans. For me, this saga beats Star Wars ... Xeno is a RPG for the playstation,it hadn't a great success so u probably never heard of it ... however it has the deepest story ever imagined for a video game (and i'm objective here, ask everyone who finished it ...). I consider it as the first RPG, due to his sci-fi evoluted story ... it's worth an article in the pretty cool wikipedia ^^ ... hoping it'll make some of you to discover this great game (you have the chance to be able to legaly buy this game, some have not this possibility ... Xenogears was never released in europe :'( (some fans are going to remedy to this ;) ). It's impossible to have a NPOV with this game once you finished it ;-) sorry for my bad english. Smeuuh@free.fr

Why some of you have never heard of it is probably because it was in fact released 1998. Some people have actually become how shall I put it... Obsessed with the game and certain characters in it. -Tsumari Mezurashii

I agree with Robert Merkel. I tracked down Xenogears, and it was worth it, but just because it touches on some philosophy doesn't put it head and shoulders above everything else. Moreover, Square's narrative is anything but top form - the game had some unforgettable moments, but it also had a second disc that was mostly text and crude graphical trickery.

-Bobquest3

Smeuuh writes: "It's impossible to have a NPOV with this game once you finished it." Agreed. I would be hard pressed to have a NPOV about that overwrought, navel-gazing, hastily-assembeled piece of dreck. I suspect that it draws fanboys like moths to a globe because the story was deliberately made nonsensical to give it the illusion of depth --- in the eyes of the true fans, the game's detractors detractors simply can't understand the sheer genius of it. Count me in the latter category -- I got the impression the writers just made everything up as they went along. Xenogears was not an awful game, but even if we compare it just to PlayStation games, it's importance pales next to --- say --- Final Fantasy VII. jdb &#x274b; (talk) 15:45, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

The controversy of Xenogear's religous tones was well covered by the gaming magazines, about 7 years ago... So it was a very controversial game, whether some of you never read about it or actually did. As for it being "the most memorable", well of course that doesn't come from a NPOV. But it would seem to be the most controversial game to date...
 * I'm not sure that I buy that. FPS games regularly make huge mainstream-media (not just gaming media) splashes when it turns out that the latest school-shooter played them obsessively; viz. also the recent feeding frenzy over GTA San Andreas. jdb &#x274b; (talk) 20:10, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * anonymous here again, I say it is most controversial because those FPS/GTA games were never threaten to be not released in America.  So XG did spark up a lot of controversy...
 * I'd think you'd have to be buried under some kind of rock to not know that there are lots and lots of people that would rather GTA not have be released, not to mention the huge legal liability Rockstar Games has incurred from their flagship title. 68.38.181.200 02:28, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

---

This talk of neutral perspectives and political correctness has me thinking. Is it possible to make a rap song like Night Of The Living Base Heads in this day? Is it even possible to imagine a game in which you kill and destroy God, being released TODAY in America? It is impossible to make movies like, The Wild Bunch, To kill a Mockingbird, or Lawrence of Arabia, do you know what that means? You couldn't remake beverly hills 90210 because you can't even find people that cool today, film and cameras of that high quality, and the original thinking and ingenuity it took to slap everything together week after week, I am not praising the show, my statement is a sign of the times we are in. All that I wish to say is that this nonsensical attempt to water everything down to a dull, bland non-objectionable perspective is exactly the root of many of our current problems today. An example to my logic as you stereotype my point of view and mock my words. A neutral point of view, a politically correct mentality, an adaptively passive autonomic skill set, NPOV applied to your home. You look at your home, and it makes you smile, for it brings you shelter. But, what about the objectionable, and questionable mind-set? What about the critical and deceisive mind-set that drawns to and seeks to draw lines, Let's call this Dpov, deceisive POV. A house quickly becomes a hazardous and inefficient enviroment! "What?" you say? Flouridated water, butyl sterine, dioxin, radon, carbon monoxide, anti-positrons, energy leaks. No, I am not saying critical and descriminating analysis resulting in a desciesive mind-set leads to PARANOIA. I am simply stating that there are lines, parallels, and dycotimizations in everything, this leads to facts and evidance. In NPOV, trying to appeal to all faculty's and ideals resulting in a lass than generic mcdonalds hamburger ingredients explanation or conclusion only aides to cloud and blur the truth and relevance of all things. One more example, imagine this same please everybody, NPOV, conform for the status-quo and mind politicall correctness and observe social neutralism mentality applied to, WW2. Would we have been able to kill hundreds of thousands of Japanese soldiers with flame throwers and spring clips, and then incinerate another Two hundred thousand using nuclear boms with that mantality? Would we have been able to supress the death and destruction from facism? Look at there, I am making another point! I did not say Nazi's, or hitler. I chose a SOFTER,easier, more generic word like Facism. This is the same as Terrorist, Insurgent, Enemy combatant. Ever further the focus draws away from the physical symptom and becomes a perspective of the general ailment rather than the underlying cause. Again, Accute bronchial toxoplasmosis, Pulminary Infection, Pluricy, The flu, the cold, SARS, no your not sick at all! You just have Random Respitory Response Syndrome, RRRS, just take these pastel tablets! Again!, another example, Japanese, Asian, Oriental, you see how each interation the definition becomes more ambiguous and vague? This is the same as as the new world order conspiracy theory. Nationalism, Seperatism, globalism, until everything is blended into one. This is very clear with the 20th century in general. Look at world war 1, German, Japanese, French, Italion, Russian, Australian, British and American nationalism brimming with pride, each country creating it's own plaques and symbols, it's own ideals and goals. Signing their own inscriptions and meanings on their own weapons Forged from national mines and the blood and sweat of their industrial work base. Then by WW2 the global circumstance was a little more homogenized, a little more blended. The league of nations, The allies and the Axis of evil. Until we have today, no longer is the hard line nationalistic party of independant country's own monarchy or political establishment, but instead "an international coalition of the willing," The united nations, nato, CFR. No more is the enemy a singular enemy or gastly figure but a "global network of political insurgent terrorist intention."A shapeless figure who may be everywhere but never seen like smoke in a dark room. Now imagine the hard line american nationalism that was victorious in WW1/2 applied to our current terrorism war, it's alot more complex than big boys in dark rooms smoking cigars. I hope at least somebody has gained a little perspective.

The way I slipped deep logic into using the word facism is the same way works Xenogears, DISCRETE and subtle intonations. Like inside jokes between high school friends, This is the introspective modality of Xenogears. What other game draws lines and conclusions like Xenogears? What other game has as many socially provocative metaphor's in the 20 minutes of CGI hand drawn anime fmv alone? What other game attempts to bridge so many social and intellectual boundry's to consolidate it's message to such a distilled and pure eloquence? The differene in Xenogears, and other games like Final fantasy is that Final Fantasy is a wholly new world with every iteration, aside from generic cleshe's and faint resembalences it is an entirely new interactive experience every time. However, Xenogears is a proprietary world. A world in itself, of itself, and for itself. For this, the argument can be maintained that Xenogears is one of the single strongest video game worlds to be created. Why? Partially because even the left overs of Xenogears can create an entirely new game, Xenosaga. What is more Xenogears attempts to provide a complete and living world. Much the same a Dungeons and Dragons furnishes itslef with every possible ammenity in the universe. Xenogears attempts to complete itself. With everything from political intrigue, world apocalypse, deception, sex, and of course great beer! Do you know why Xenogears has more intellectual merit than a game like, say Suikoden III or IV? Do you even know what intellectual merit is? Now hold on, how can I say bartweiser beer is "Great?" Well, how can you say that bottled water is better for you than sewage? If you wan't to be politically correct to the sewage, and observe social neutrality, you can't say that, you will offend sewage lovers. You can only say one might prefer bottled water over sewage for a variety of personal reasons. If you are having trouble following me, I suggest you wach a movie called Baraka, read books like emperor wears no clothing, enemy from within, and inception. Then take two aspirin watch all of Serial Experiments Lain, call me in the morning then take a dose of Hand Maid May followed up by Twelve Angry Men and the original Manchurian Candidate. Bottom line, the point of my arguement lies in the fact that NPOV takes the responsibility of decision making from the individuaul, group, organization, country by allowing no decision or conclusion to be made at all. In reality, just like the computer most everything is BINARY. Yes or no, up or down, left or right. Just like the story of king soloman, when the boy was cut in half and given to each of the women. In this manner NPOV allowes the existance of ignorance. Back to the beer statement. Bartweiser can be a superior beer based on scientific, physiological, chemical, esoteric, and afflicting/limiting factors. Thus in tern, it becomes FACT of reality, a line driven through the sand by force of will that Bartweiser would be a superior beer, thus this negates the logic of NPOV by allowing clear and elemental evidance of the absolute corporial manifestation, and clear affiramtive approximation. -Xenogears, 20:18, July 5, 2006


 * Alright, what about this? " It's harder to say Xenogears sucks than any other game." I quote Yasunori Mitsuda " It was extremely difficult creating traditional music. " Infact, let's take a look at all of Xenogears, wasn't EVERYTHING about Xenogears extremely difficult? The 8X rotation sprites in a 3D world, the story involving many different plots and influences joining together, and anime cgi fmv. Infact, other than the length of the game and the fact that support was over by the end of disc 1, what was easy about Xenogears? What was CHEAP generic, easy and cost effective about Xenogears? I want you to sit there, right now and compare Xenogears to Orphen.  Look deep and ask yourself how Orphen could be better than Xenogears? Graphics? What if Texture resolution, polygon count, and technological superiority did not completely make for good graphics? What if ART, and creativity and style had an impact on the assessment of a game as well? What beauty and art does Xenogears have? How does the finality of it's creative expression compare to other games? Lastly, ask yourself this. What single game is more respected and talked about? Go to EBgame, Software ECT, even Toys R Us, anybody who WAS GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO PLAY playstation games will tell you Xenogears is golden. Xenogears™©® 08:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I guess you like Xenogears and all, given that it's your username, but what in the bloody hell are you talking about? Thunderbunny 14:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I have to disagree on three of the points raised here: that it is impossible to have a NPOV about Xenogears after you've finished it, that Xenogears is golden, and that it is nonsense. I consider myself to have a very neutral POV when it comes to this game.  I used to be a rabid Xenogears fanboy, and while I have always been interested in religion and philosophy, it was Xenogears that inspired me to wade into research about Gnosticism and Nietzsche.  I was really disappointed when I discovered that the game's usage of 90% of these themes was hollow; literally, name dropping.  I had always sworn up and down that it was worth suffering through the bad translation, the miserable camera angles, and the awkward graphics to get at the story, and the revelation that the story was so much recycled chaff dressed up with some buzzwords really hurt.  There's no great mystery concealed beneath the names and places, in Xenogears.  The story is good, but it is good for the same reason that humans enjoy Star Wars, Evangelion, or Jerry Bruckheimer's continual run of disaster flicks.  It is formulaic.  It is designed to strike chords in people without introducing truly original concepts.  Don't get me wrong, now, I do love Xenogears.  But I love it for what it is, not because I think of it as some kind of video game savior.  The story is worthwhile.  It's just not inspired.  In the same breath, however, I have to say that calling it nonsense and drivel just because you weren't smart enough, interested enough, or patient enough for it isn't fair.  Xenogears isn't significant for a whole bunch of reasons, but it is significant for having what is probably the most involved plot ever attempted in a video game.  If that turns you off, fine, go play Final Fantasy VII.  But don't badmouth Xenogears just because it isn't your thing.  That's not NPOV, it's just bias in the other direction.  (For the record, Xenosaga does a slightly better job at assigning proper meaning to its religious and philosophical themes and therefore to its story, and the translation is lightyears better, but the gameplay just makes me want to cry.)  -AZ  71.230.155.212 17:25, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I would have to agree with the above post. Xenogears is filled with the names of interesting concepts and people, but not necessarily the concepts themselves. For example, many people relate the defeat of Deus at the end to Nietzsche's phrase "God is dead, and we have killed him". Upon closer analysis-- the context in the game is completely different. Deus is an intergalatic murder machine. Going even deeper, it's a vessel for Krelian to ascend humanity to a higher plane of existence. Nietzsche's words have nothing to do with any of that at all; they were a critique on what he saw as the morally pitiful state of mankind at the time. Xenogears didn't even TRY to parallel that. But mindless fans would say otherwise. They try to make connections that just aren't there. Hell, the game just barely stands on its leg when arguing that the fight with Deus parallels killing the Christian God in the first place. LOL.


 * I have to disagree with that. The final fight againhst Deus is supposed to be symbolic, and is supposed to symbolize humans "defeating" god and "killing" god, overcoming his imposed purpose and necessity, not nearly, "LOL OMG WE KILLED TEH CHRISTIAN GOD".  And Deus himself was supposed to be a symbol for a God and Religion, which is why the authors choose to make him a "man made infinitely destructive weapon".  Whether or not you picked that up though is another thing. Liquidtenmillion 22:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * As Liquidtenmillion stated, Deus is supposed to represent a god, and not just in his name. Deus is a murderous machine, but it also created all of the characters in Xenogears--it may not be the Christian God, but it is the God of their world, of their race.

Agree completely with AZ. This article ain't gonna be written by people who have never heard of the game and are dissecting it like some animal on a table. 95% of the people I have spoken with love this game and have it in their top 5/3/1 RPGs. Chrono Trigger's article has a line along "hailed by its fans as one of the greatest games of all time." If Chrono gets that, then the opinion of the fans can be here. With the philosophy, the power of Xenogears lies in the symbolism and the connections you must make. A lot of the name dropping is designed to set the stage for the religious themes. They're icing on the cake. It's been a while since I've played- at what part does Neitzsche come in? Xenogears is rife with realism. Unfortunately some people are too blind to notice the parts of the game that aren't "name dropping." The war between Kislev and Aveh- bigger dog eat dog, the state of war, the self-interested pursuits of the villains and for the most part, the heroes. People are saying that this isn't Neitzsche? But I don't remember if he's exactly referenced- like I said, been a while. I found the Freudian aspects to be the most solid aspect of the plot. Nobody seems to have mentioned them, and those are far deeper and psychological than anything I have seen in any game.

Religious Backlash
Just out of curiosity, where did the rumors that Xenogears might not be released due to its religious content come from? Moral Majority types usually don't get that upset about games as far under the radar as Xenogears, regardless of their content. Thunderbunny 18:12, 14 May 2004 (UTC)


 * It came directly from the developer, Square. When they officially announced the game in Japan in 1997, they made it a point to say in the press release that they might not be able to release it outside of Japan due to it's religious content. Druff 23:22, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

The rumor of religious friction, according to xgam.org as well as other Xenogears sources, is entirely true. As for the proof that Xenogears was rushed, you really do have to figure so what with their reported funds drought, as well as the drastic difference between the first and second disks. Furthermore, there are bits of code which were never implemented, as well as some loose ends never tied up. These should really be nonissues. -Big Billy V


 * I looked at xgam; it appears to be a fan site, hardly an authoritative source. Anyways, I still think the rumors are suspicious (though they are, as a previous editor mentioned, definitely out there). I've heard plenty about uproars coming from games like Grand Theft Auto, Doom, Duke Nukem...genre-defining and/or very commercially successful games which contain frequent graphic depictions of violence and/or sex. Xenogears is a relatively obscure RPG whose greatest sin is making a few less-than-reverent, out-of-context Biblical references. I don't think that upsets too many people, and it really does seem like the only talk of a negative Christian reaction to Xenogears is speculation coming from Internet message boards. Thunderbunny 08:32, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I can't cite sources but I do remember something at the time about the game possibly not being released in the west due to religious sensitivities. It seems unlikely that people were getting up and arms about a game that hadn't been released so I've always assumed this was a fear of the publishers and nothing more. I wouldn't call it that controversial. As for the discussion about the game being memorable, it wasn't a huge commercial hit and it was never released in europe. It was however well received critically and managed to attract a cult following, it's arguably an important game in the RPG genre. Either way memorable isn't really a good word for wikipedia since its so subjective by nature. --FlooK 08:34, 31 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I recall reading that too. I think the worry was completely on the part of Square, who was afraid it MIGHT cause controversy in the U.S., but as far as I know it never did.

Although I don't have the issue anymore, I remember reading in UltraGameplayers magazine (which has been defunct for a long time now) that Square was considering not releasing Xenogears due to its religious themes. This was in 1997, I think, and it was part of a story that covered a bunch of Japanese RPGs that were heading to PSX and N64. At that point, apparently, the situation looked bad enough for UGP to claim that it wasn't likely that Xenogears would ever be released in the US. However, as has been mentioned by others, I think it was mostly concern on Square's side and not really anything caused by others not wanting it brought over. Adamantium Guy 17:38, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

A good measure of this issue is the difference between the original Japanese release, and the original American release. I have no beaten the Japanese release but I have studied it along with the script and there are obvious differences. In the Japanese version the pressence of Deus or planetary weapon system Yabeh is more aggresively displayed as GOD. Also, certain coments and scenes regaurding racy issues, like the Ethos raping young boy's were also altered from the Japanese release.Xenogears©™® 07:24, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Rushed out of the Gate
There is no proof that Xenogears was rushed. This can only be inferred from the gameplay of the second disc.--Paraiba 19:56, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I was under the impression that members of the production crew had admitted they had to rush the second disc to meet their deadline. 68.47.234.131 01:34, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I removed this statement:

"; they had simply too much ground to cover."

Because it was presenting a point that was already presented, and I'm a perfectionist. -Akir


 * The evidance supporting the notion that the game was indeed rushed during production is overwhelming at the very lest. I have emailed SquareSoft myself and It is impossible to obtain financial records from the mid 90's. However I have been personally informed that the current lack of support for Xenogears other than retention of the official website is due to " The Financial unequitability of the title." The evidance that SquareSoft did not fully comprehend the magnitude if Xenogears is demonstrated further by the blatent lack of enthusiasm after Disc 1. The official story of this is simple, Xenogears was 'getting in the way' of more important projects like the up and coming FFX project, and the final titles to be released for playstation, including FF8, Parasite Eve 2, and Front Mission 3. During pre-production assessment game was set for a early 1998 release, with a pre-set budget. Right before disc 2, Xenogears ran out of money and Squaresoft didn't want to babysit Tetsuya Takahashi's little God destroying paradox between Christian ideaology and Geram philosophy. What's more, Squaresoft did all this knowing  that Tetsuya Takashi had 6 PART SERIES lined up, with Xenogears being in the middle. -Xenogears, 1:40, July 4, 2006

Battle System
I removed this from the end of the (rather perfunctory) sentence on the battle system (which says that it's based on button combinations):
 * this system was used again in a later Square RPG, called Chrono Cross.

I would guess the author is referring to the fact that both games' battle systems give you a certain amount of 'stamina' with which to attack in a given turn, but in Chrono Cross one selects the level of attack (weak/strong/fierce) from a list, rather than particular buttons being associated with each level, and picking attacks in a certain order doesn't have special effects as it does in Xenogears. Unfortunately, I haven't played Xenogears recently enough to be able to give a more detailed description of the battle system; anyone else feel like improving on it? Damien Prystay 06:40, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)


 * Xenogears and Chrono Cross's battle systems were both devised by the same person, Hiromichi Tanaka (who was also the producer of both games.) Tanaka himself has said that Chrono Cross's battle system was merely an evolution of Xenogears' system. See for yourself here: Druff 20:10, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Nietzsche/Jung/Freud
I threw in the Nietzsche link, as his work is central to where they derived ideas for the overall themes of the game, as well as the titles for the Xenosaga series. -Polarism 16:38, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The links to Nietzsche and Jung under "related" seem like non sequiturs. They would make more sense worked into the article text itself so the reader can get some idea of their relevance from context. As it is, they come completely out of left field. &mdash; Gwalla | Talk 06:37, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I read about this article at the GameFAQs message board, where I go by the alias of Hellknight. I am a student of philosophy with a special interest in Nietzsche and, in the past, I wrote extensively about the influences he had on the themes behind Xenogears. Of course, most of this so-called research (more like pseudo-research) was not only original, but based on thin connections and parallels that could be infered from the game. For example, I used to hold Grahf as the nihilist par excellence, as he "not only [believed] that everything deserved to perish; [he] actually put [his] shoulder to the plough; [he] destroyed". Krelian could also be thought as a kind of religious nihilist, that devalued this world in favor of a world beyond - in the end, he also wished the nothingness. And finally, Sophia could, quite obviously, be thought as Christ, but not the Christ as put forward by Christianism. Rather, the Christ Nietzsche thought of, as a kind of ignorant about reality.

The point is, I could include this in the article; however, I'm not sure if it would be counted as original research. I still have the original commentary I wrote and posted on GameFAQs, if anyone is interested. What do you guys think? Daniel Nagase 04:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and I also have a piece on Miang, which also touches on Zohar, the Wave Existence and Deus. Again, if you guys wish, I can post it here so we can see how to integrate that into the article. Daniel Nagase 04:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It sounds like good, interesting stuff, but it would almost certainly be deemed original research and unencyclodpedic. Druff 16:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I suggest then that we take out the allusions to Nietzsche in the article, as they are not explicitly found within the game; unless memory is failing me, they were only "found" in retrospect, after Xenosaga came out with its explicit mentioning of Nietzsche in its title. The psychological references can stay, obviously.


 * What about the stuff on the plot, though? Does the article need a detailed backstory section? Daniel Nagase 16:43, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I can recall Nietzsche being brought up relatively soon after Xenogears was released, certainly long before Xenosaga was even announced; usually in terms of Krelian's echoing Nietzsche's "God is dead" proclamation, the concept of man's need to create god, and so forth. I don't think there's a problem with mentioning the influences of Nietzsche et al and providing a few examples, but that should suffice. Another option would be to post your essay somewhere permanent and then cite it here. Druff 15:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * As far as the content referring to the Freudian concept of Id, Ego, and Superego goes, it can be considered valid as one of the central characters is named "Id". This suggests that the developers had knowledge of what they were suggesting, especially considering the fact it was indeed discussed at length in-game. When it comes to Nietzsche, the argument is actually invalid, and I can tell you why. Eternal Return has nothing to do with mere reincarnation-- it suggests that our universe contains a limited number of potential phenomena, and thus has only a limited number of scenarios and arrangements, which means the universe is bound to repeat itself any given number of times eternally. Because this repetition really only applied to the Contact and the Antitype, I would call it reincarnation and not Eternal Recurrence. Furthermore, I do not personally feel that the developers even hinted at their recurring existence as being inspired by Eternal Recurrence. And yes, I do own six of Nietzsche's books (including Also Sprach Zarathustra, central to the Eternal Recurrence concept), so I'm not just pulling this out of thin air. Lol. Hope it helps in your decision to retire/keep the Nietzsche info. I think it should be retired.Sophia Demiurge 15:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * points to last update in previous section re: Neitzsche* If it's in the game then it holds. Otherwise it's interpretation. Freud is valid by all means. He develops a feral alternate personality called Id which he unleashes on his mother... :O

Xenosaga-style articles
Hey, I'm a fellow Xenogears fan, and I'm planning on writing brief articles on all the characters seen on the main page, as well as factions, regions, etc.

--- Thank you. This is one thing that I feel the Xenosaga articles do an EXCELLENT job of. I'll also be tackling a few of the people/places myself.

Charles M. Reed

--- Ok, cool. BTW, that post was by me, Deckiller.

Deckiller

--- Apparently, they were removed. It would be a good idea to have a list of links to each article to make navigation easy. It works fine in the Xenosaga page.

Deckiller

--- I would wish to add one suggestion, I feel the Xenogears website from squaresoft offers a good logistical example for us to draw from; [|Xeno Webpage] -Xenogears, 17:42, July 4, 2006

Template
How does it look? Deckiller 03:20, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Given the complexity and breadth of the story, it might be a good idea to also organize this according to a timeline. A good example of what I mean can be found here: Ironuckles 01:22, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I have a very simple idea, we should organize and categorize the information so that navigation and orientation feels like a well scripted SQLserver database, with corresponding links and subtopics culminating into a intuitive and useable circular logic open format platform. -Xenogears, 19:20 July 4, 2006

WikiProject proposed
Wikiproject/List of proposed projects Deckiller 00:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Link to Gears articles needed
Gears are mentioned in the Xenogears article, but no link is given to either the Playable Gears page or the non-playable one. TKarrde 19:47, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Chrono Trigger connection
I just deleted the bit under Game Notes about Xenogears' connection to Chrono Trigger. The issue is that it isn't a "fan theory". Attributing it to fan theory is wholly inaccurate. However, as the source is an old interview that's long lost in the mists of time, that bit will stay gone until the day I can find and present the verification. Druff 07:24, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * If I may be so bold as to make a point about this topic. Is not the coralation between Xenogears and Chrono trigger a stark and visible parrallel? It is well known that the core production team that worked on Chrono Trigger also devouted immense time to Xenogears. Yasunori Mitsuda, Kunihiko Tanaka, Yasuyaki Honne, and Tatsuyo Mizuno amongst others. Aside from this commonality there is also the clear evidance of Lucca being in Lahan village. So anything contrary to this fact in absurd, Lucca from Chrono Trigger clearly takes your money in Lahan village. thank you for your time. -Xenogears, 17:40, July 4, 2006


 * I'm with you. But the issue is not just the fact that they are connected in general; as you mentioned, that's flatly proved by the game itself. The real issue, the thing I removed from the article, is that the Xenogears project itself originally began its development cycle as a sequel to Chrono Trigger. In other words, after Chrono Trigger was released, many members of the staff reconvened and began having meetings to discuss their next project. The initial idea was to make a sequel to Chrono Trigger. But at some point early on, the direction of the project changed. They said "Let's forget about making Chrono Trigger 2. Instead, let's make a new game that isn't directly connected to anything else." Xenogears. That's the specific idea that causes controversy. Without a direct confirmation of that, people assume it's just some baseless rumor started by an overzealous 13 year old fanboy in his parents' basement. It's understandable; it should have concrete confirmation. Druff 21:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Additional Evangelion/Star Wars Similarities
I've just added serveral additional similarities commonly cited between both Xenogears and Neon Genesis Evangelion and Star Wars, as well as a few miscellaneous similarities regarding Rico and Blanka from Street Fighter 2. I have further separated the psychological and philosophical connection section into its own category for purposes of better organization. --Fred 13:25, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I think there are too many of them now; there should only be 3 or so major ones from each category. &mdash; Deckill e r 01:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree. The more information relevant to the article and issues surrounding the article, the better.  More similarities make the topic more informative, which is ultimately Wikipedia's mission as an encyclopedia.  Of course, given the increasing size of the "Similarities" sections, particularlty for Evangelion, I wouldn't be opposed to creating a new article exclusively for them, and linking to it from the main Xenogears page.


 * Also, I corrected some minor points in two similarities listed, and re-added them after Druff removed them. Particularly, that Shinji didn't lose consciousness when destroying part of a city (but he did lose control), and that Misato didn't betray Shinji.  Similarities still remain in Shinji and Fei's inadvertant destructive incidents early in the plot, and a valid similarity still remains among Citan and Misato in that they are both 29 year old mentors to the plots' heroes, and are either doctors (in Citan's case) or the children of doctors (in Misato's case).  More similarities between Elly and Askua were added, as well.
 * --Fred 2:30, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed an incorrect "correction note" on the main page under the Star Wars similarities section stating that Grahf was not Fei's father, Khan, and that he never removed his mask. Grahf was, in fact, Fei's father.  Khan was both the Wiseman and Grahf, visiting Fei to help him as the Wiseman, and then reverting to Grahf occasionally when the spirit of Lacan (Fei's prior incarnation) overtook him.  Also, he did remove his mask during the last battle he engages with against Fei.  --Fred 1:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I re-added two Evangelion similarities after Druff removed them for reasons I find inappropriate. First, Chu-Chu's similarity to Pen-Pen is by no means nullified because similar characters to both existed in a select few other anime.  Chu-Chu from Revolutionary Girl Utena was produced one year after Evangelion, making Pen-Pen a more likely basis for both (though both Chu-Chu's are more similar to one another than Pen-Pen, and should be mentioned in the "Other" similarities category).  With any portion of a given listed similarity, or even some similarities in and of themselves, one can probably find additional works of fiction that share the similarity, be they in anime, literature, or games.  When taken together as a whole and in context of one another, a very distinct, comprehensive similarity base exists, and bolsters the validity of each individual piece.  Consider a simple test commonly used when determining if a writer has plagiarized a passage of text: that passage, in its entirity (or at least, as a collective sum of most of its parts) is compared to outside texts written by the accusing body to see if, as a whole, it is distinctly similar.  If you isolate, say, two-word phrases within the questionable passage, you can find they those phrases have been written a million times over in literature, but it's completely irrelevant, because they're taken out of context of the whole passage.  Therefore, the fact that occasional characters in anime exist that are somewhat similar to Chu-Chu other than Pen-Pen does not affect the validity of the listed similarity in any way, shape, or form.


 * Second, because the Angels from Xenogears were initially called Aeons (which is actually a Gnostic term for divine beings very similar to Angels (in fact, some Aeons are also Angels[]), and not a localized "invention," as you claim), they still look exactly like Judeo-Christian angels, and are still enemies of extra-terrestrial origin whose defenses can only be broken by the special gears piloted by the main characters. Finally, yes, Grahf is still Fei's father in large capacity, regardless of the fact that he is possessed by Lacan's spirit occasionally, and retains validity for all listed similarities to outside works based on this fact.  --Fred 1:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Grahf is not Fei's father in any way, shape or form. Grahf is Lacan, and Lacan is an earlier incarnation of Fei. Ergo it would be more correct to say that Grahf is Fei himself. Grahf has merely been possessing Fei's father's body for three years. When Grahf loses control of the body, it reverts to Fei's father, Khan. Khan hides his identity from Fei using the Wiseman disguise. If you insist on showing a parallel between Darth Vader and Fei's father, use Wiseman.


 * The Pen-Pen/Chu-Chu issue doesn't hold water. There is a long history of comic-relieving mascot characters that goes much further back than EVA and isn't restricted to anime. It's ludicrous to hold up EVA as the inspiration for a cliché that's been done before it in countless other places for so long.


 * As to the Aeons/Angels issue, the fact remains that they were not called Angels by the people who created Xenogears.


 * If you insist on using Wikipedia as the means to prove to the world that Xenogears is a rip-off of Star Wars and EVA, at least do it accurately. Druff 18:12, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * That is correct. Fred you are wrong.  But he does take off his mask,you are right about that.  But it is unfair to say that Grahf is Fei's father, because he is not at all.


 * In the near future, I'm going to trim that similarities section down to about ten major items. This is an encyclopedia, not a collection of original research information. I agree with Druff that a lot of this is original research and POV. &mdash; Deckill e r 21:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I shall introduce some facts. First, all we can do is ask, " Would Chu-Chu exist in it's identical nature if Pen-Pen was never invented?" Grahf is Lacan's alter ego after seperating from himself during contact with the Zohar. Lacan wanders aimlessly after loosing Sophia and searches for the ultimate power to bring her back, finding the Zohar Lacan splits and Grahf is born. Grahf lives on long after seperating and searches for the 'ultimate' power to simply destroy everything. It is his hope that ID may be permanently awakened and used as a tool for his destructive ambitions. Whilst Wiseman IS Fei's father, it is true that he only takes the role of ONE masked vagrant, thus rendering the two roles as individuals. This particular relationship may be something you can find between Vader and the Emperor in starwars the similarity ends there with the introduction or Emperor Kain, and the antitype process. -Xenogears, 19:00 July 4, 2006.


 * Go ahead, talk to any teacher or scholar. From an academic point of view, Evangelion and Xenogears are about the two best subjects to write your college thesis on. What other anime and video game duo/pair is equal in being a meaty good choice for a college thesis, I expect no credible rebuttle.Xenogears™©® 09:40, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, I love Xenogears, but that statement is absurd. While they are certainly more valid for anthropological or sociological study, and definitely literary study, than most other video games and/or anime, Xenogears and Evangelion are so rife with blatantly misused imagery that they are worthless as actual interpretive religious or philosophical texts.  They use German philosophy and Judeo-Christian religion for shock and recognizability, and nothing more, the same way they use borrowed ideas from other, more popular science fiction.  For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls say nothing about alien invasion, and the twelve tribes of Israel have nothing to do with super-powerful walking tanks.  I'm not saying the stories don't have punch, and it is obvious that the imagery they use plays a part in their effectiveness, but the usage of said imagery has absolutely nothing to do with actual philosophical or religious meaning.  It's showmanship.  Please don't risk your degree on a thesis topic like this.  I'm not saying some "progressive" advisor wouldn't let you get away with it, but you wouldn't deserve any accolades.  There's nothing there, under the surface.  -AZ 71.230.155.212 17:06, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Back
I'm generally back for good, so I can finally start working and improving this article. It will be soo much easier than the Xenosaga article(s) since it's not a whole series. I'll be using a style similar to some of my previous projects with WPFF: Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy VIII are some examples.

Let's work harder!
Added more content to Gameplay article, and included a convenient link to Chrono Trigger. Xenogears™©® 07:52, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

How can I edit the TOP BANNER paragraph for the Xenogears definition? Reads as; Xenogears (ゼノギアス, Zenogiasu?) is a. It needs updating, and it needs to be more descriptive, but not LONGER. Things like no support for SECAM and australia need attention.Xenogears™©® 09:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Under publishers we need to add a THIRD publisher under Electronic Art's. We need to add Square-Enix co,LTD. You can buy the new 2001+ RELEASE of Xenogears and the label is CLEARLY SquareEnix. That makes 3 publishers. Since SquareSoft, CO is still a fact set in time. It was published by that name-plate.Xenogears™©® 09:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Crossreference section
So why is the section listing references removed?