Talk:Xenos Christian Fellowship/Archive 1

sources?
shouldn't there be 3rd party sources for this article? they all seem to be from the xenos website... with all of the controversy surrounding accusations of the church having "cult-like behavior" (re: underage drinking, partying, etc), you would think a 3rd source would be more helpful than someone deleting the information over and over? Andsat (talk) 05:07, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Any suggestions. I am not going to rip stuff off blogs and message boards.  there really isn't that much stuff on it.  The size of that church however, makes it notable in my mind. Oldag07 (talk) 05:42, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Clarification, we can not rip off blogs.(see WP:RS). I found some sources in newspapers on Xenos, but I need authoritative sources if i want to publish criticism on this topic. Oldag07 (talk) 06:16, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The church discipline website did a pretty thorough investigation that neoXenos (the Akron branch) cited. Since Akron officially cited them that could be considered a reliable source, or perhaps we link off to the discussions on Akron.  jbolden1517Talk  10:54, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * For some reason I did not see this comment. . . . What church discipline website? Oldag07 (talk) 06:15, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I can't find a single source on the "cult-like behavior" of the church with conforms to wikipedia's standards for a reliable source. While i don't know all of the controversies about the church, I don't feel "underage drinking" or "partying" is unexpected with a social group very large university student population with into split into "home groups". They are no different than fraternities or sororities in this respect. As for the church's "cult-like" doctrine, with does encourage evangelism, it is very similar to fundamentalist christian churches. Xenos is similar to college christian organizations like Campus Crusade for Christ or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. As such evangelical teachings are not uncommon in student organizations. The church's unique structure (combination frat/ fundamentalist church) does bring out both of these attributes in extremes. I can see how this would cause a negative perception of the church. But I am not sure if these topics are notable. Oldag07 (talk) 05:43, 10 May 2009 (UTC) (made more readable)Oldag07 (talk) 16:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Here are some third party sources--of course it is hard to say where *their* info came from originally.

Yount, W. "Called to Reach", p 200 (the paragraph can be found using Amazon's search feature).

Boren, M. S. "How do we get there from here", pp 52, 63 (also found via Amazon).

Telford, T. "Today's All Star Missions Churches", has a chapter on Xenos (not searchable on Amazon), which I have read (the author was an MLB Ump and correlates churches with MLB players he knew--fun concept).

Page, F. "The Incredible Shrinking Church", pp 97,98 (searchable on Amazon).

There are about 2 pages of books on Amazon with references to Xenos. Some of these use quotes from Xenos pastors to promote the book to readers, which might serve to illustrate the importance of the church in the greater Christian community. Given that the Telford book has a chapter highlighting the church and he is not a church member might also serve to indicate as well the importance of the church outside the local area. Note: I do attend this church but feel this information does answer partly the fair questions posed by other posters.Kgilbert78 (talk) 21:07, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * If you could add some of these sources to the page, it would be great. Thanks. Oldag07 (talk) 01:02, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm new enough to working with Wikipedia, though not using it, that I thought it better if someone more experienced did this.Kgilbert78 (talk) 18:50, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I put three of the four books on. I did not add the All Star source. There are my revisions. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Xenos_Christian_Fellowship&diff=307636319&oldid=304371102 I tend to be pretty lazy with grammar, and this page needs some clean up after a added them. I am willing to help you with the All Star source if you can tell me exactly what facts you would like to add to the page. Thanks. Oldag07 (talk) 22:01, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Lemme look for the book over the weekend (I am pretty sure we own it) and I will see what I can do. I seem to recall Telford was rather good at referencing his sources, but I'll have to check.Kgilbert78 (talk) 19:24, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Looks good. Nicely done! I have removed the tags for notability, onesource, and primarysources. I have left the two tags not added by me (POV check and Cleanup).


 * Regarding the notes (above, predating my involvement) on coverage of this group as a cult, I have to say that I haven't found anything substantial to support that. The main reliable source I have found is an article at ohio.com (reprinted and available for free here) which doesn't make it clear if the church or the complainants are the ones acting poorly. But there is a substantial amount of information in unreliable sources that have negative things to say about this group. They can't be included, but right now the article is left one-sided. However, I have no idea what to do about that, or frankly if anything should be done. -- Transity  ( talk &bull; contribs ) 19:32, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The second paragraph does suggest that the discipline of the church isn't universally liked. Why would that many people leave?  We would be flirting with the no original research doctrine of wikipedia, but we could say something like, "These institutional changes have made the church seem cult-like."  Transity, you seem to have been involved with the organization like I have. For Ohio standards, it might seem cultish.  As someone born and raised in the bible belt, you "ain't seen nothing". Oldag07 (talk) 04:22, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * There was a study done in the 80's on whether or not Xenos is cult. If you're interested you might want to look into it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.228.185.2 (talk) 21:27, 31 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I made a couple minor changes to wording. I'm not really satified with the paragraph yet, but it is better. Xenos is not fundamentalist but is a believer in biblical inerrancy, so it's hard to know what word to choose here (fundamentalist is amost useless these days due to the negative connotations of the word in areas other than Biblical inerrancy). Perhaps "evangelical", but even that is hard to pin down. I also deleted the word "institutional". That has negative connotations at Xenos, as might be expected from a chuch that came out of the Jesus movement of the 1960's. Since the specific biblical qualifications for leaders was cited in a third party source, I also thought it best to briefly add that for specificity. Thoughts?? I'd appreciate feedback.19:50, 13 August 2009 (UTC)Kgilbert78 (talk) 19:51, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Greek Xenos definition
I don't feel it is necessary and a wiki-link to the greek article Xenos (Greek) should suffice. Oldag07 (talk) 06:10, 10 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You removed a lot more than that from the article. Those were not just restores they were deletions.  You may have been just pulling in an old version or something, but the other materials should be there.  jbolden1517Talk  10:55, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Tags
I added back some tags that seem to have been removed without addressing the points they raised. I also added some new tags, dated for July. The tags I added were for sourcing (as noted, most sources are published by Xenos, meaning that the article relies heavily on a single source, and that source is a primary source), and notability. Regarding notability, I'm not sure that I see how this organization meets the general notability guidelines or the guidelines for organizations. Can someone spell out notability, please? -- Transity  ( talk &bull; contribs ) 14:45, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * A 5000 member organization is notable to me. Oldag07 (talk) 18:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "The organization’s longevity, size of membership, or major achievements, or other factors specific to the organization may be considered. This list is not exhaustive and not conclusive." Oldag07 (talk) 18:25, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

(undent)Not necessarily. Don't get me wrong, they may well be a 5,000 member organization (one passing reference in a college newspaper states this, though they may just have been taking Xenos' word for it), but my point is that without substantial coverage in reliable sources, that really doesn't mean anything. Take this excerpt from WP:ORG:

A company, corporation, organization, team, religion, group, product, or service is notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in secondary sources. Such sources must be reliable, and independent of the subject.

The depth of coverage of the subject by the source must be considered. If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources should be cited to establish notability. Trivial or incidental coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not sufficient to establish notability.

The source's audience must also be considered. Evidence of attention by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability. On the other hand, attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability.

Once notability is established, primary sources may be used to verify some of the article's content.

Again, I'm not saying that Xenos fails these criteria, just that I don't see how it meets them at the moment. The main gap here, I think, is substantial coverage in reliable, secondary sources. Of the sources, only two are external to Xenos. One is the passing mention in a student (OSU) paper, and the other is a small reference in a Columbus Dispatch article. I'd also note that both papers are local to the area, which establishes local notability, but not national notability. Not every charity is notable, nor is every religious group, regardless of their size and local importance. -- Transity  ( talk &bull; contribs ) 18:55, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If only we could use the blogosphere, in which there is a ton of stuff on Xenos :-) . . . . I'll keep on looking. I still assert that there are secondary sources, and the organization has 5000 people, and three sister churches outside of Columbus, Ohio. Oldag07 (talk) 21:54, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

There is a book on Amazon not written by Xenos--and now searchable--that had much of the info requested. http://www.amazon.com/Todays-All-Star-Missions-Churches-Strategies/dp/0801063817/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1302186105&sr=8-4#reader_0801063817

This is copyright 2001, so is a bit old, but is a good place to start. See PP 99 ff. Xenos is a featured church in a national discussion of mission-sending churches in this book. It would probably be best for objectivity if a non-XCF person excerpted this info (I attend this church).

Also, see Thom Rainer, http://www.amazon.com/Breakout-Churches-Discover-Make-Leap/dp/031025745X/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1302186566&sr=8-5#reader_031025745X

This is ca. 2005 and also higlights Xenos in a discussion of national churches. This is also available on Amazon and is searchable.

Third, there is a 2010 book also mentioning Xenos in a national setting, though less than the previous two books. It is also searchable.

See:

http://www.amazon.com/Hybrid-Church-Intimacy-Jossey-Bass-Leadership/dp/0470572302/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1302186566&sr=8-1-fkmr2#_

I've read much of the first two but not the third one. However, three books discussing Christianity over a 10 year period that all mention/feature Xenos should help with the discussion about notability.Kgilbert78 (talk) 14:34, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Urban Concern
Found this third-party souce for the 1000 Points of Light Award from the Columbus Dispatch web site archives but not sure how to add it. COMMUNITY GROUP WILL GET POINT OF LIGHT AWARD Author:   Brent LaLonde, Dispatch Staff Reporter Publish Date: July 17, 1992 Paper: Columbus Dispatch, The (OH) Page: 05B "A Windsor Terrace community group that was built through the efforts of volunteers will receive the 833rd Point of Light award today.

"I think we have some of the best volunteers in the nation," said Jim Swearingen, executive director of Urban Concern. "Our volunteers are why we are recognized nationally."

Mayor Greg Lashutka announced the award at the Harambee House, 1028 Chittenden Ave., yesterday. Harambee House, near Windsor Terrace."

Can someone help.Kgilbert78 (talk) 19:59, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I would definitely like to help. I am not exactly sure how to use your source either.  Probably just say something like . ."Urban concern volunteers have been awarded by XXXX with a point of light award."  If not, just attach the reference to urban concern.  I posted some stuff on your talk page that might help you.  keep up the good work. Oldag07 (talk) 20:43, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Xenos Ministry for kids
Xenos has amazing kids programs. In the summer there are camps and very sunday there is a big middle school meeting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.79.252.33 (talk) 01:07, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

First-hand input, maybe
I'm sorry not to be able to be a "source" directly but I'm finding it pretty laughable that anyone would be talking about underage drinking and "frat behavior" in relationship to anything having to do with the Fish House or its offshoot groups. I was briefly a member of that community in the early 1970s and that's about the furthest thing from their profile I could have ever imagined; even at this distance and time I don't believe it.

The Fish House, before it was a newspaper, was a men's Christian residence in the area just north of the 15th Ave. "frat row" at OSU, which also sponsored Bible studies and prayer fellowship meetings. It was (as I understood it) begun by several people associated with the Navigators (the "Navs" and CCFC) who were, as noted above, very specifically interested in seeing how biblical injunctions for communal life could be "pressed out" in lived structures for persons of faith. I would say it was not so much a product of the 60s' "Jesus Movement" as a more thoughtful response to the sometimes far-flung efforts by those who had been a part of that activity to find ways to root and ground alternative interests in developing faithful communities, and to provide those in whom the "movement" had sparked a desire for a more intentional lifestyle a context in which to explore the means by which to define and live that out.

Later, a group called the University Christian Fellowship grew up, which had similar goals and ideals, and with a similar governance structure, comprised of singles, families, students and graduates, living in community, buying or renting in a 3-block area up near 17th Ave., in the block just before the underpass to the Fairgrounds. Some of those individuals had been in the Fish House or were close friends with members of the House, and wished to broaden its applications to a wider demographic, others joined later.

I'm wondering if there were not a later confluence of the two groups, since the UCF also, in the time I was there (1974-78 or so) started a children's tutoring program, and was considering social justice issues seriously. Input to those groups' direction in the latter field came in part from invited outside speakers who had been active in the Civil Rights movement in the South, and whose offerings were sometimes studied and discerned by the eldership as prophetic guidance, incumbent upon the group to be followed by its members as a part of its mission.

Outrigger groups transplanted themselves to Salem, MA, and other sites; these groups cooperated with or were known to and received by the UCF. If there were in fact ties to the group now calling itself Xenos (that name postdates my time of activity with them) they could well have had members in the thousands, since some of those outrigger groups are still running. The hierarchical structures were tied to a group in Mansfield that ran Grace Haven Farm, under Gordon Walker, and for awhile had a restaurant in town, and also had ties to a group in TN whose name I've forgotten. I believe John Westerfield was also an active leader/member at the time; I believe he is still active in publication activities and some of his early books may contain references to the group.

Some members of the group became involved with the Vinyard Fellowship, which was originally seen as more restrictive and cult-like in its governance (and some would hold that to be true, still), and as leaders moved from the area (several relocated for a time in the early 1980s to Haiti, where they worked with the Mennonite Fellowship there to establish schools and churches) the group seems to have disbanded; in returning to the area from time to time it has not been possible to contact members for a while now.

These groups at the time were very aware of the distinctions between cults and churches (the Moonies were very active in the area; some members had "escaped" to the UCF and the Fish House from the Moonies, in fact) and talked a lot about avoiding the former while taking on the characteristics of the latter. But it should be noted that many members had had uncomfortable relationships with their churches of origin and for a long time resisted the title "Church," hence the use of terms like "fellowship" or names like "Fish House," and, I'm guessing, "Xenos."

Instances in which people were asked to leave the group could be a bit murky, and a couple such cases involved simple differences of opinion with the leadership that in a larger setting might just have been ignored. But by and large, behavior of the type described as "frat-like" would not have been tolerated, and individuals engaging in such behavior would have been counseled, in a three-step process derived from Matt. 18:25, and either placed in a probationary relationship to the group or asked to leave.

I'm not now a member of that group and I did have some differences with its structures, notably the insistence on women's subordinate roles even in situations where male leadership was less trained or experienced, but I found the emphasis on communication, on group interaction and support, and on a process of structured deliberation in response to felt "calls" for vocation or individual activity, to have been on the whole a wise one--and useful as a skill to have carried along with me over the years.

If in fact, as I'm surmising, there was a merger of the two groups, there are also publications by members of the UCF leadership from long past that might offer more insight to the group's background and roots. One of the books attended to closely was the first book by Matthew Fox (before he became illogically synchretistic in his confoundment of various religious approaches) called the "Magical, Mystical Bear Book," with its emphasis on prayer as a radical action, a declaration of trust and a source for guidance; his attention to global issues and to local social justice issues, as well as early articles in Sojourner Magazine might offer more resources for consideration here. If there is a PM system, I could possibly identify a couple of individuals who might have more or better information than I do.Dellaroux (talk) 12:14, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the input. I do have to remind you that wikipedia has a strict policy against original research.  Basically this is what is published, and this is the best we can do.  Oldag07 (talk) 14:03, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I'll mention that I've been attending Xenos since 1980 or so, and while I remember UCF, I don't think there was any connection between them and Xenos, except, I'm sure, some folks who may have attended both at different times or folks in one who had friends in the other. There were quite a number of campus Christian orgs of various sorts around OSU at the time. Most were familiar with the others. Some survived and some did not. Kgilbert78 (talk) 14:20, 7 April 2011 (UTC)