Talk:Xenu/Archive 2

Intergalactic Walrus
Mauritz' Rule: Anything containing the words "Intergalactic Walrus" cannot possibly be serious.


 * How dare you. This is sacred religious scripture! - David Gerard 01:46, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I mean business! -The Galactic Walrus

"Space planes"
I think the material that was just removed, about Hubbard not explaining why a space plane would have wings and a tail, deserves consideration. Airplanes have wings and tails because that is necessary for their purpose of flight: form follows function. Hubbard would appear to be claiming, though, that the DC-8 is shaped the way it is not because that is an extremely functional design for an airplane that needs to manuever through the air, but because it is a subconscious repetition of the shape of one of Xenu's space planes, which does not need wings or tail to manuever through the airless vacuum of space. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:26, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * A space plane by definition is an aerospace vehicle, a craft which can travel both in atmosphere and vacuum, both in free fall and under lift. As such, it needs lifting surfaces and stabilizers for aerial flight. The design of the DC-8 would not be viable as a space plane under Earth technology, but we're talking about advanced aliens here. While there are plenty of absurdities in the Xenu story, a "space plane" having wings and a tail is not one of them. (Consider that the Space Shuttle, sometimes described as a "space plane", has wings and a tail!) --FOo 18:56, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Good point. There isn't anything in the Xenu story to confirm or deny the notion of the planes being intended to operate in air as well as space. -- Antaeus Feldspar 21:55, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Trying to take this seriously ... Let's assume that a DC-8 (and not say an Airbus A380) outfitted with advanced technology would make a dandy spaceship. I suspect if you were to transport trillions of bodies to earth, it would take billions of trips from dozens of star systems with quite slow round trip time. I suspect that even if they started 78M years ago, they'd still be working at it. Also, given that they only had hydrogen bombs for killing -- pretty low tech -- I also worry for their energy sources for moving all this mass such long distances.  Given that, I also worry for the heat dissapation and radiation from such a huge fleet of these things entering and exiting earth.  --garybradski 11:34, 22 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Did somebody just superimpose a picture of an airplane over a picture of some stars? I don't know how helpful or illustrative that is. Everyking 08:16, 18 May 2005 (UTC)


 * It's a literal depiction of what Hubbard describes - a DC-8 flying through space. It's in exactly the same spirit as, say Image:Noahs_Ark.jpg. -- ChrisO 09:01, 18 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed, however it's not showing up in the article for myself any longer. Any clue as to why? It seems fine. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 02:26, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)


 * It's still in the article. There've been problems with the servers lately, so maybe the image server was acting up? -- ChrisO 06:27, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I just can't see the thumbnail, though the above picture looks fine. I can click the button and see the image, however. Probably just a sever issue as you said. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 00:27, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

"The space planes were exact copies of Douglas DC-8s" - given the timeframes, the DC-8 must be a copy (or memory, or whatever) of a space plane.


 * Okay, I personally think this article should go in the "FICTION" category. It's a load of crock, and anyone who honestly believes this is mentally retarded.  Not because it's ridiculous, but because there is absolutely no factual evidence supporting it, and loads of factual evidence against it.  Most of it was ridiculous enough, but the space plane in particular.  A space plane would not need wings or a tail, L Ron Hubbard is clearly a scam artist trying to grow himself a name.  Now, I've read the full pages on scientology, and some of it is very well-grounded.  For example, the quote about how we will never have peace on earth until we learn to trust eachother, or the anti-psychiatry (I am a victim myself of psychiatry's over-medication), however, this space plane idea makes absolutely no sense.  Now, maybe it's just not well explained, if so, please fix it so that it is more clear, but if this is the full clarity of the story, it really is the most moronic religion known to man.  The church of Bob Saget is more sane than this bullshit.  -- PhantomTrogdor
 * As it says at the top, this is not a joke article. Whatever our personal beliefs, we have to report on Scientology the same way we do any other so-called religion.  Kasreyn 04:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Judge Leonie Brinkema's opinion

 * Our anons inserted this material in the middle of a sentence, and how seriously they took it is shown by the fact that the end of their insert made no sense whatever when the poor, bewildered, violated sentence resumed. Here it is for anyone who feels like mining it for any actual usable material. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:16, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC):

scanned, OCR'd and converted to text and posted onto the newsgroup alt.religion.scientology by Arnie Lerma, which resulted in the August 1995 raid of his home, and the resulting a multi milltion dollar Federal lawsuit, which became Religious Technology Center (Scientology) vs Arnaldo Lerma, Richard Leiby, and The Washington Post.

4 October 1996 - Memorandum Opinion [ Full Text ]- Judge Leonie Brinkema

"The dispute in this case surrounds Lerma's acquisition and publication on the Internet of texts that the Church of Scientology considers sacred and protects heavily from unauthorized disclosure. Founded by L. Ron Hubbard, the Scientology religion attempts to explain the origin of negative spiritual forces in the world and advances techniques for improving one's own spiritual well-being. Scientologists believe that most human problems can be traced to lingering spirits of an extraterrestrial people massacred by their ruler, Xenu, over 75 million years ago. These spirits attach themselves by "clusters" to individuals in the contemporary world, causing spiritual harm and negatively influencing the lives of their hosts "

The files posted by Lerma were webbed by over 200 sites, in August 1995 legal threats of litigation forced them all to vanish, until all that were left were the site of David S. Touretzky and Karin Spaink


 * I just got an email from the person in question and have given hopefully useful advice (check the talk page, formatting counts, create a login 'cos anons don't get no respect, the detail should probably go in Fishman Affidavit). I'm just going to go into Xenu and mention Arnie put it up first (on a.r.s), not Dr Dave (though his was the first website) - David Gerard 13:04, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Xenu story very similar to comic book fantasy world.
I think that this entire Xenu scenario is quite poorly imagined.

First of all, the first though that comes to mind would be that if this is to be believed, then the Star Wars' galaxy far far away wasn't actually far far away. We might as well take that for fact as well, if we're going to believe this story, no?

Secondly, in the aproximately 5000 years since humanity started writing tales and history, why is it that only this single individual (Hubbard) managed to get a relapse of these events as he claims that they are lodged in our subconcious.

My third point is that this entire scenario looks a bit like the whole Galactus story from the Marvel Comics world. If you ask them, they will probably even throw in space demons like in the comics.

I honestly, not out of mean spirit, ask any scientologist to come forward and please explain to us common folk how exactly it is that one individual with an avrage american up-bringing comes to believe in such things when we are raised to believe that they are nonsense, the stuff of movies.


 * I both have a comment and a criticism of the article which falsely implies that Xenu - like information is spread throughout most of the writing found in Scientology. The original text is available on the internet and it is about 2 typewritten pages long.  It speaks of an event that supposedly happened on earth about 75 million years ago.  That would be while diansours walked earth.  The reason that text is able to be freely copied and re-posted is because it was presented with many other Scientology documents in Scientology's court battles with the IRS, but wasn't withdrawn from the public forum.  Scientology got many copyrighted documents withdrawn from court public records but when it came to the Xenu document the judge said something like:  "Do you really expect me to believe the copyright of this fairy tale is critical to Scientology's existance?"  This Xenu is in the public domain and can be publically displayed.  The Church of Scientology, as far as I know, has never made a public comment about it or whether it is taught in the Church.

Now if you know someone who can look 75 million years in the past and tell us what really went on 75 million years ago, I would be happy to hear about it ! heh. But it isn't core to Scientology, though I've been in Scientology 20 years, I had not heard of it except for the internet. Terryeo 06:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your comment. However this talk page is here to help us write the article, not to discuss it or its subject. If you have any specific criticism or comment about the article that is most welcome. But if you want to talk about Scientology or its beliefs then please follow some of the external links in the articles - I believe that several link to forums dedicated to such discussions. Cheers, -Willmcw July 6, 2005 20:20 (UTC)


 * Tangentially, there have been some tenuous connections made between a Marvel Comics character, "Xemnu," and the cosmology presented in this article. There's a long discussion of it here:

Star Wars and Ritalin
Thanks to whoever fixed the article and removed the star wars and ritalin stuff.

Said edits have been restored in a more appropriate location. Notta Pangloss 16:50, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Space opera in Scientology doctrine
Readers of this article may be interested to know that there's a related article discussing the background to the Xenu story at Space opera in Scientology doctrine. The article has now been submitted for consideration as a featured article - if you'd like to comment on it please see Featured article candidates/Space opera in Scientology doctrine. -- ChrisO 10:51, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Xenu After School
Oughtn't this be replaced by the original segment from the BBC Panorama documentary?

Request for Comment
The editor who initiated the recent AfD decided to list this article on RfC after the vote was over and overwhelmingly rejected his complaint. I don't see the point in listing it, but, hey, I saw it and came here to be yet another voice to add to the unanimous (! very rare on Wikipedia!) voice of consensus on the AfD discussion telling AI that there is no problem with this article. When 23 people say it's fine and only 1 (who happens to be someone with a history of extremely POV edits) say it's not, it's pretty safe to say that the one person is completely out of step and easily ignored. DreamGuy 06:26, 15 September 2005 (UTC)


 * AI has since been banned from Wikipedia for legal threats, and banned from Scientology-related articles anyway. CoS editors are fine on Wikipedia (we have several), but disruptive and antisocial editors of any type aren't - David Gerard 15:07, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Cruise and Holmes
Can someone explain how they publicized Xenu so I can fix that paragraph?--HistoricalPisces 17:20, 29 September 2005 (UTC)


 * They didn't ... but just about every media article about them around the time (June/July 2005) mentioned the story of Xenu. Most using direct quotes from this article! - David Gerard 15:07, 30 September 2005 (UTC)


 * It seems a stretch to me to mention Katie Holmes in this article. 66.213.119.98 18:52, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Only just. It was specifically about all the press they were doing to promote the romance being instead filled with Xenu Xenu Xenu - David Gerard 14:06, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I've taken Katie out now, for what it's worth, and spawned a new section. It really was ALMOST ALL press coverage of Cruise at the time. It's odd the "popular culture" stuff can be marked as starting so clearly at a particular time, but this is just fine - David Gerard 14:13, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Aaaand I just noticed someone else did it first. Just shuffled it back into place. I've added a para on the Marvel Comics villain Xemnu, and I'm looking more closely into that one - David Gerard 16:26, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Highlander 2
This sounds suspiciously like Highlander 2. Was the movie based on this account? - T&#949;x  &#964;  ur&#949;  22:25, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * That's a horrible thought - David Gerard 22:39, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Highlander 2 was a horrible movie. - T&#949;x  &#964;  ur&#949;  22:58, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Slimming this down?
I looked over the article for stuff to slim down, but it's really pretty low-fat and tightly written. I did shift the bits from Have You Lived Before This Life? to Space opera in Scientology doctrine. Anyone else see things that could or should be moved? - David Gerard 22:39, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Indeed it is quite long but I'm not sure what could be removed. It's all of interest. If we need to remove - or move - anything, maybe it could be the stuff about Incident I under "Xenu in Scientology doctrine", and parts of "The influence of OT III on Scientology". I'm not sure where to move that stuff though. Maybe some parts could be moved to the Operating Thetan article, which is much shorter. (Entheta 23:07, 21 November 2005 (UTC))


 * Mmm. But the detail should probably stay here, since this is more a subarticle of that ... Oh heck, it's all good! - David Gerard 23:31, 22 November 2005 (UTC)