Talk:Yagyū Shingan-ryū

Who was founder of Yagyū Shingan Ryū ?
Fred26 wrote: "Hello. I noticed you changed the status of Araki Mataemon from "founder" of Yagyu Shingan-ryu to "promoter". I was personally under impression he created the Shingan-ryu, and so does the authors of Koryu.com. (authors of the book I used for reference. I'm not an expert on Shingan-ryu though, I might have missed some vital fact. Was Araki Mataemon the actual creator of Shingan-ryu or not according to you? Best regards"
 * As I understand it, Takenaga Hayato is most often credited as founding all of the Yagyū Shingan Ryū schools. Mol, Serge (2001) Classical Fighting Arts of Japan: a complete guide to koryu jujutsu Kodansha Intewrnational, Tokyo, ISBN 4770026196, pp.176-177, says:
 * "The founder of the Yagyū Shingan Ryū was Takenaga Hayato (he later changed his name to Iikinyū), from Sendai. Hayato studied Shingan Ryū, Shindō Ryū, Shuza Ryū, and Toda Ryū before developing his own system.  At first Hayato was strongly influenced by the Shingan Ryū, a pre-Edo system based on Sengoku-period battlefield tactics, developed by a certain Ushū Tatewaki (referred to in some densho as Shindō Tatewaki).  Hyato thus named his own system Shingan Ryū, but used a different kanji for "shin".  While further developing his own system, he worked in Sendai.  Hayato, however, must have admired Yagyū Tajima no Kami Munenori, so he left Sendai and went to Edo, where he managed to become employed by the Yagyū family.  It is not clear exactly how long he worked for them, but he did not neglect his bujutsu training."
 * Serge Mol goes on to say that "Yagyū Shinkage Ryū" was the otome ryū of the Shogun's family at the time, but that through friendship and out of respect, Takenaga Hayato was allowed to use the name "Yagyū", and so he named his school "Yagyū Shingan Ryū". Takenaga Hayato returned to and taght in Sendai.
 * There is some discussion of this problem at " Yagyu Shingan ryu (taijutsu, katchu yawara, or yoroi kumiuchi)" E-Budo.com Forum. See especially the comments of 06-29-2004, 08:59 PM by Shin Buke.  Shin Buke says:
 * "I've been doing a bit of research on Yagyu Shingan-ryu recently and I've come upon a rather interesting problem; I've come across two separate linages for Yagyu Shingan-ryu. The first (at http://www.koryu.com/guide/shingan.html) lists Araki Mataemon as the founder and Muto Masao as the current headmaster. I have seen a similar lineage (http://www.kunpooan.com/arakido/shingan-e.html) whose only difference lists Kajitsuka Yasushi as Muto Masao's successor and current headmaster of Yagyu Shingan-ryu (apparently Muto-sensei passed away in March of 2001). I have, however, found another site (http://www.txc.net.au/~hokushin/yagyushi.htm) that lists a completely different lineage for the school. The lineage starts with the founder as Takenage Hayato Kanetsugu and lists the current headmaster as Hoshi Kunio. I have seen this lineage at another site as well (couldn't find it with a quick search, should have bookmarked it) however, I tend to put my faith in Koryu.com and its official links over other sites."
 * The Samurai Archives credits Ushū Tatewaki (羽州帯刀), also known as Tozawa Tatewaki (所沢帯刀), as the founder and considers both Takenaga Hayato and Araki Mataemo as early students. Araki Mataemo continued Yagyū Shingan Ryū in an Edo school. Takenaga Hayato continued Yagyū Shingan Ryū in a Sendai school. The Samurai Archives says that Ushū Tatewaki is the founder of Shingan Ryū and that his student Takahisa Masabito Kanetsugu (sp?) was the one who renamed the school as "Yagyū Shingan Ryū". "Yagyu Shingan Ryu" The Samurai Archives and "SamuraiWiki talk:Bujutsu Task Force:Yagyu Shingan Ryu" The Samurai Archives.


 * The Japanese Wikipedia article 柳生心眼流 (Yagyū Shingan Ryū) lists Takenaga Hayato (竹永隼人（直入）) as the founder but says that there is also a group that considers Araki Mataemon (荒木又右衛門) as their founder. The Japanese Wikipedia article 柳生心眼流 (Yagyū Shingan Ryū) lists Ushū Tatewaki (羽州帯刀) first under the Northeastern School of Yagyū Shingan Ryū, and it lists Takenaga Hayato (竹永隼人) fifth in the lineage of the Northeastern School. It does not list Araki Mataemon (荒木又右衛門) in any of the three lineages: Northeast, Tokyo or Kansai.

After studying the various sources, I agree with the conclusion reached by The Samurai Archives consensus, that Ushū Tatewaki (羽州帯刀) was the founder. --Bejnar 17:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Hm..so in short: Multiple lineages, multiple versions. Sounds messy to say the least. You've already updated the YSR article as to reflect all this so I'll leave this in your hands. Nice diggin. Fred26 20:51, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Changes on 2 March 2007
IP editor 203.19.157.253 "Philip" made a number of changes to the article without indicating sources, or discussing them on the talk page. For example, what is the source for changing "permitted to use" to "directed to use" with regard to Takenaga Hayato's use of the family name Yagyū with respect to his art? What is Philip's belief as to the relationship between Takenaga Hayato and Araki Mataemon? Did Philip have any source for that? What source did he have for Ushū Tatewaki (羽州帯刀) teaching Shindō ryū rather than Shingan ryū? I have left some of these as he wrote them, pending discussion. --Bejnar 14:52, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

My apologies for not indicating my source or discussing them on the talk page, and being not so computer literate. Unless the translation was incorrect, "directed to use" the source comes from the book Shoden Yagyu Shingan Ryu written by Hoshi Kunio & Shimazu Kenji, Nihon Bujutsu Shiryokan.

'The relationship between Takenaga Hayato and Araki Mataemon'.... there is none. Obviously great men in their day!

'Ushu Tatewaki teaching Shindo Ryu rather then Shingan Ryu'.... This source comes from the book Shoden Yagyu Shingan Ryu written by Hoshi Kunio & Shimazu Kenji, Nihon Bujutsu Shiryokan. I have also discussed this with Shimazu Sensei.

Regards,

Philip

Weapons/skills found in the various lineages
I was thinking of implementing a info-box, the same as found, for example, in the Kashima Shinryu article which I think would be a nice compliment to the YSR article. Unfortunetly I'm a bit in the dark as what to weapons and skills to put into such a box since there is more than one lineage and I dont know if they all have the same skills. And there is no point in creating 2-3 boxes. I think I can create a seperate section of a single info-box where it says something like, (just example), "Shurikenjutsu trained in Lineage A, B" "Kenjutsu trained in Lineage A, C, D" and so on. Naming the various founders, co-founders of the lineages might be trickier but not impossible. Comments? Fred26 11:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello Fred26,

Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heihojutsu Weapons and Skills include, Taijutsu Kenpo, Torite, Kenjutsu, Bojutsu, Kacchu Yawara, Yoroidoshi, Jingasa, Odachijutsu, Shinpo, Kappo, Hyoho, Jutte, Tessen, Torinawa, Shuriken, Kodachi, Umagoya Sangu (Bashin,Hananejibo, Jingama). I don't think Aikido or Judo should be listed as decendant schools of Yagyu Shingan Ryu even though both founders practise some YSR. Kito Ryu is not a decendant school of Yagyu Shingan Ryu. Have a look at wikipedia on Takenaga Hayato. This source comes from Shimazu Kenji. Book: Kacchu Yawara Yagyu Shingan Ryu, by Shimazu Kenji. Book: Shoden Yagyu Shingan Ryu, by Hoshi Kunio and Shimazu Kenji. Research: Hinshelwood, Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heihojutsu (Australia).

Hope this is of some assistance to you.P