Talk:Yahya bey Dukagjini

Name
"Yahya bey Dukagjini" is only used by Robert Elsie. Is there a reason why he is known by an Albanian neologism rather than any of his more common names (and spellings)? Is his notability being an Ottoman poet, or being an Albanian? As per this, I boldly move to Yahya Bey.--Z oupan 23:25, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I was reverted by, "User:Zoupan moved the page without discussing first, ignoring the sources which refer as "Dukagjini" or "Dukaginzade". Also, "Yahya bey" is a very general pattern, more suit". What does "Dukagjini" or "Dukaginzade" have to do with the spelling Yahya bey Dukagjini, which is used in 1 reference? Once again, his notability is not Albanian poetry, but Ottoman. There is no problem in moving it to "Yahya Bey". Why would you insist on that unused title, reverting, instead of discussing it?--Z oupan 08:53, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
 * If any name should be used, I feel it's Taşlicali Yahyâ bey. Yahyâ bey is too generic on the other hand. See my google results. Elsie's book is mostly about readers on Albania topic, but Yahya will be remembered firstly as an Ottoman. I propose renaming to Taşlicali Yahyâ bey, although not necessarily my proposal is the best one (the results are very close to give a definite answer).
 * Taşlicali Yahyâ bey - 36 hits
 * "Yahya bey Dukagjini" - 27 hits
 * On the other hand, please don't edit-war this article and don't rename without reaching a consensus. Edit-warring will automatically finish my review and I will fail the article. --MorenaReka (talk) 19:25, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Zoupan is right here. The current title does not exist in sources, except Elsie. The above presented GBS hits are false, (not for the first time in past several days, which might indicate serious violations of wikipedia rules) presented without deducting wikipedia (as per wikipedia rules). On the other side Taşlicali Yahyâ version has dozens hits.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:23, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Dukakinzade and Dukaginzade has more hits than Taslicali, and your Taslicali search contains entries like Dukakizade Taslicali Yahya, which count on both sides. You have given up on ethnicity and now are starting to pick on the name.Mondiad (talk) 20:34, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Everything you wrote is incorrect and unnecessary harsh to me probably because I reached consensus against your (repeated) attempt to give undue weight to Yahya's Albanian ethnicity.
 * Everybody can see that the comment I posted here (diff) was my second comment on this page, written two days ago, less than an hour after I wrote my comment about ethnicity issue. Before "I have given up" (actually reached consensus for my position) on ethnicity issue you again created. You again presented false GBS results.
 * No doubt that you know that it is necessary to deduct wikipedia from search results and present only last page of search results, because I repeated that more than once in our discussions. Without quotation marks, deduction of wikipedia and presentation of last page, your GBS hits are again false and aimed to push your position. That is disruptive. I don't have intention to continue this conversation with you. I know that you are going to continue to give undue weight to Albanianism everywhere (if necessary with false GBS hits) as long as such behavior is tolerated.
 * Yes, "my" Taslicali search contains entries like Dukakizade Taslicali Yahya, just like Dukagjini search contains entries like Taşlicali Yahyâ bey. Does it refute my position in any way? No. No doubt you know it. I can't see any other reason for you to write this, except to mislead uninitiated editors.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:29, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Dukaginzade prevails over Taslicali. And there are sources that Taslicali came later in 19th century as a name. Most of the names that cite Taslicali have it as part of "Dukaginzade Taslicali Yahya...". Please stop with these "everything you wrote is incorrect", "everything you say is wrong".
 * Have a simple Google search and skip through pages and see yourself. Or call someone used to it who can do the math, i.e. TU-nor. I guess you don't have anything against him. Mondiad (talk) 06:12, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * There are five other wikipedia projects about this person. Every single one of them is using Taşlıcalı Yahya Bey version of the name. That is not any proof for English language wikipedia, but shows that "my" Taslicali is not mine at all. I only mentioned because mentioned it. The correct name might be Yahya Bey or Dukagjinzade Yahya Bey... or who knows. But Albanian language Dukagjini version is certainly not appropriate here. No doubt you know it. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:01, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Antidiskriminator, what would be the correct GBS hits, and why are my hits wrong? --MorenaReka (talk) 22:33, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I already explained above. It was necessary to exclude the word "Wikipedia". --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:29, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
 * How do you do that? And do you see any Wikipedia articles in the pages that I presented? MorenaReka (talk) 13:30, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, it is enough to just add -wikipedia. GBS never presents wikipedia articles. I apologize if I am wrong, but none of the works at the page you presented above actually mentions "Yahya bey Dukagjini" version of name or even the word Dukagjini. No English language source used in the article uses this version of name, except Elsie. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:00, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll declare neutral, but this is an important issue, as it has implications throughout the article. I'll give some help though: What would the English speaking literature professor of Oriental languages in Oxford or Yale call him? And based on what current books/translations would he/she be based on? --MorenaReka (talk) 16:37, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
 * From the sources of the article, excluding Elsie and the Turkish/Bosnian ones:
 * Gibb, p.108. - Yahya Bey of Dukagin
 * Houtsma, p.1449. - Yayha
 * Norris, p.79. - Yahya Bey Dukagjin
 * Gibb/Lewis/Kramers/Pellat/Schacht, p.352. - Taslicali Yahya
 * Fleischer, p.63. - Yahya Beg
 * Cornis-Pope/Neubauer, p.498. - Dukagjini, Jahja bey (Dukagizade Yahya Bey or Tasclicali Yahya)
 * Mondiad (talk) 06:37, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * You proved my point . Except Elsie, no English language source used in the article and none of the works at the page presented above actually use "Yahya bey Dukagjini" version of name. Only Cornis-Pope/Neubauer (impossible to verify online) mentions  word Dukagjini. Why didn't you include English language part of the work Dukagin-zade Taşlıcalı Yahya Bey work on Mevlana Celaleddin used in the article which uses Taslicali Yahya Bey version of the name? Why did you omit to present version of the name (Dukagjinzade Yahya Beg) used by Emine Fetvacı in her work, also used in the article? Is it pure mistake or it is because those sources do not support your position? Honesty says that Honesty is expected in all processes of Wikipedia, including content discussion, the dispute process and all other functions of the community. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:37, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * How did Mondiad prove your point, Antidiskriminator? You are making me curious now:
 * Gibb (English speaker) says Yahya Bey of Dukagin,
 * Norris (English speaker) says Yahya Bey Dukagjin,
 * Cornis-Pope (English speaker) says Dukagjini, Jahja bey.
 * Elsie (English speaker) says Yahya bey Dukagjini
 * You said that only Elsie says his last name, but I feel like Mondiad is proving you wrong and you are not admitting it. On the contrary, you are citing honesty passages to say that Mondiad is wrong and you are right? That doesn't add up in my book. Of course all the other names will be mentioned in the article, in the opening preferably, but we are talking about the name now, and the name can't be but one.
 * I have two other concerns:
 * Calling him Taslicali throughout the article: doesn't it promote the Turkish name of Plevlja?
 * Shouldn't diacritics be avoided when there is a proven name in English sources? --MorenaReka (talk) 13:58, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * No doubt that you know that it is not what I said ("Except Elsie, no English language source used in the article and none of the works at the page presented above actually use "Yahya bey Dukagjini" version of name. Only Cornis-Pope/Neubauer (impossible to verify online) mentions  word Dukagjini. ")
 * No doubt you noticed that Cornis-Pope (impossible to verify online) uses Jahja, not Yahya version.
 * No doubt that you know Dukagjini≠Dukagjin≠Dukagin.
 * No doubt you know that it was you who brought Taslicali alternative in your first comment in this section, not me.
 * No doubt that you know that I am not proponent of Taslicali as I explained that in my edit here (diff)
 * No doubt that you are trying to attribute any motives to me (promotion of Turkish name of Pljevlja) to mislead unitiated editors.
 * This is my last comment in this discussion. All the best.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:46, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * So you are "insulted" now, you don't want to discuss anymore?
 * Can you just tell me in few words why were so angry at the article to begin with? Can't you check how to improve something in the article, rather than open ethnicity topics?
 * I don't care if it is Dukagin, Dukakin, Dukagjini, or Dukaginzade. The "Dukaginzade" version is mentioned in most of the Turkish sources, although Taslicali became common by the end of XIX since the later is Turkish, why the earlier comes from Persian. I had put the name Taslicali in the very first sentence. All the names that we are discussing have no effect on the person's life and work. But if the definite form of the Albanian "Dukagjin-i" bothers you so much, we'll find a solution to it. Mondiad (talk) 15:26, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator, I find your words a little offensive, but it seems to me like ultimately you don't want to force the issue of renaming the article. Just to clarify, Cornis Pope's use of Jahja, would be the Albanian version, but we want a more generic version, which is "Yahya". Still, this was a discussion around Taslicali vs Dukagjini, and it doesn't seem like there is a broad consensus for a move. In any case I will leave some time to you and other editors (such as Nedim Ardoga or Zoupan), but, if there are no other developments, I will consider the naming resolved, as with a no move decision, based on the discussions above. Best! --MorenaReka (talk) 15:41, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * In Ottoman naming conventions when written, the geographical place usually goes first. In the majority of sources they use Dukagin which in Albanian is Dukagjini. Having the article called Yahya Bey is generic and a majority of sources (mainly Turkish) use Dukagin. Nonetheless using the form Dukagjin (in Albanian) also can be done on the page as Ottoman Albanian personalities like Sami Frasheri, Hasan Prishtina, Ismail Qemali and so on are given on English Wikipedia in their Albanian names, not as Fraserli, Semsettin; Pristinali, Hasan or Avlonali, Ismail Kemal. The name as used in English sources (as outlined above) by people writing on Yahya use Albanian forms like Dukag(j)in(i). I see no further recourse on the matter from my part for now.Resnjari (talk) 14:23, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Content
reverted my edit with the comment "Try to discuss first, and add some content if you can. Don't just remove content because you have a grudge on Albanians. Be constructive." Where did I remove content? Have you read "your own" article? It has close paraphrasing (Elsie 2012), problem with proper citing, awkward intro, and uses a wrong title (preceding talk section). It needs general cleanup. You also neglected Norris 1993. Compare this one with this one. You would want to address this for a smooth GA review.--Z oupan 08:53, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Why don't you discuss before renaming the article? Is it urgent? Yahya bey is a very general term. There is a disambig page for Yahya (name) since there are many with that name and many are "bey"s. For the same reason that Yahya Petra of Kelantan is not titled Yahya Petra or Sultan Petra.
 * You're welcomed to clean up.Mondiad (talk) 01:29, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Relation with his Albanian origin
There is a problem with undue weight given to Elsie's interpretation of one verse which mentions cliffs and crags. Based on this interpretation a whole section was created and named "Relation with his Albanian origin". It contains only one single assertion about his origin from the territory of Albania (based on Elsie's interpretation). Rest of the paragraph is unrelated to Albania. This subtopic does not merit its own section. Probably based on this (mis)interpretation, this person was attributed Albanian ethnicity. Elsie did not mention Albanian origin as ethnicity, but origin from Albania, a territory with cliffs and crags. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:51, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * "Probably based on this (mis)interpretation, this person was attributed Albanian ethnicity." - Probably it would be better to read the article and the references before making statements starting with "probably".Mondiad (talk) 04:51, 12 November 2015 (UTC)


 * This is a valid concern. Currently I cannot access any source, so I invite Mondiad to bring in the talk page the quote from Elsie that Yahya were Albanian at all. If Elsie doesn't say that Yahya was an Albanian, we cannot say it in the article. The fact that he was a catholic doesn't make him an Albanian. In addition, I invite Mondiad to quote Houtsma that in the citation is quoted saying that Yahya was a scion of the Dukagjini tribe. Third, and this is related to the second concern, Mondiad is invited to explain how come the Dukagjini highlands are extending to Pljevlja, which in my geographic knowledge doesn't add up. All concerns of this thread will need to be addressed as part of my GA review, so Mondiad has 17 days to respond. MorenaReka (talk) 20:19, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually Elsie is the author who cares the least for ethnicity in general. Anyway, here is what you asked. page 127. It is very clear from the other sources as well: Houstma, Hadjijahic, Fleischer..."A Turkish poet of Albanian origin". I don't know why we are even discussing on this, instead of improving the material on his work, all Antidiskriminator and Zoupan can challenge is his Albanian ethnicity.Mondiad (talk) 04:47, 12 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I find it strange that Elsie interpreted his verse cliffs and crags as "Yahya bey was not oblivious to his Albanian origin". This person was born in Pljevlja and cliffs and crags probably much more can refer to Pljevlja than Dukagjin highlands which is flat valley compared to region of Pljevlja. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:31, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Let's not rush. I find sources from Jašar Redžepagić, who says "Jahja bej Dukagjini, i cili në Divanin e vet turqisht bën fjalë edhe mbi origjinën e vet shqiptare" (meaning "Jahja bej Dukagjini, who in his Diwan talks about his Albanian origin".). The same thing is said also by Dhimiter Shuteriqi, as well as in an article in Studime Historike, so there are plenty of sources for his Albanian origin, however I would like Mondiad to find an English source, if possible. Not much is known about this person, and I don't want the article to speculate about ethnicity, especially in an area with many ethnicities. In addition there will be plenty of issues upcoming that in my opinion are more relevant to upgrading this article to GA than his mere Albanian origin, however accuracy of the interpretation of the source is key in an article, be it to be published in a journal, or in Wikipedia.... MorenaReka (talk) 20:42, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * That is not what is asked. Why is there a section called "Relation with his Albanian origin"?--Z oupan 21:20, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I thought Antidiskriminator was asking. Are you the same person with two nicks? --MorenaReka (talk) 22:03, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

He is, but when nobody answers I am urged. No?--Z oupan 22:07, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Well if you are urged, I hope everything is alright with you. I believe the Albanian origin and his alledget ethnicity don't deserve a separate paragraph, something can be written about it in his early life section. So yes, I agree that a separate section about his Albanian origin doesn't do any good to the article. --MorenaReka (talk) 22:31, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * There you go.--Z oupan 22:33, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Please feel free to help with the article, this is why Wikipedia exists: to work together. MorenaReka (talk) 22:36, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Pljevlja has never belonged to Albania. At that time Pljevlja belonged to Herzegovina. That is why the origin of this person was not Albania, but Herzegovina. Regarding the ethnicity of this person, maybe he indeed decided to declare Albanian ethnicity, but it is necessary to present reliable sources for such assertion. Even Robert Elsie emphasized that there was no reliable and objective historiography in Albania which could serve as a basis for historical dictionary he wrote in 2010. If some editors have the intention to attribute Albanian ethnicity to this Herzegovinian, it is necessary to find better sources than Albanian historiography. Even if there are such sources, his Albanian ethnicity does not merit a separate section. According to wikipedia rules, ethnicity should not be emphasized unless it played some important role in the biography of the person in question. In case of Yahya, it was irrelevant, though giving undue weight to Albaianism is editing pattern of a small group of editors. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:34, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Antidiskriminator, can you please explain how the geographical position of Plevlja is relevant to the ethnicity of the poet? MorenaReka (talk) 21:53, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Antidiskriminator, thanks for fixing the link, I can see now Elsie's article. --MorenaReka (talk) 22:06, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * You are welcome. The geographical position of Pljevlja is not relevant for determination of Yahya's ethnicity, but for demonym used for this Herzegovinian.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:56, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Can you jump into the references and read before coming here and talking about Yahya's ethnicity? Are you serious? Herzegovinian? Is that an ethnicity at all? Mondiad (talk) 04:22, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * No doubt you know that Herzegovinian is demonym, as I stated in my above comment. No doubt that you know it is you who insist on giving undue weight to Yahya's ethnicity, contrary to the consensus of all other editors who discussed it. Based on our earlier interactions, I know this is not the first time you give undue weight to somebodies' Albanian origin, and I don't expect it to be the last time. I gave clear explanation for my position and reached consensus for it, so I don't have much to add to it now. You can respect the consensus or not. The choice is yours. I understand that you are not satisfied with it, but you can't expect me to be somehow obliged to continue discussing here with you as long as you don't like the consensus. All the best.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:47, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * As both of us have interacted many times before, I repeat that I have an esteem for you, until the moment you place yourself in a guru position and try to rebuke me with these "big words". You state that I try to emphasize the Albanian origin. Where do you see me emphasizing the Albanian origin here? If so, I would have put it in the summary at the very start. In contrary, you and Zoupan went with a typical rage against the Albanian origin, quite explainable and absurd, instead of checking many other aspects of the article which need improvement. Without reading any sources first, you brought this talk page to the size of a novel. For what? For nothing.Mondiad (talk) 20:48, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Read Hadjijahic, p.217. "pjesniku albansog porijegna". Mondiad (talk) 04:28, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Antidiskriminator, do you still feel that this edit is correct? --MorenaReka (talk) 14:19, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * No. After presenting quote from original poem which confirms relation to people, not to clifs, I selfreverted myself. Based on wikipedia rules, his ethnicty should not be emphasized in the first sentence or lede, because it is irrelevant to his notability. Therefore, the only correct edit wold be to remove his ethnicity from the opening paragraph.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:35, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Left to be done to GA promotion
Opening: Mondiad, please see in the review page the advice that I have for the opening paragraph. Follow it, and then I think there isn't much left for promotion. MorenaReka (talk) 15:37, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I gave it a first try, please review. --MorenaReka (talk) 17:11, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Can you move the "Albanian by birth" and the "devsirme" sentence to the early life section below rather than the opening? Mondiad (talk) 02:06, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I won't take the ethnicity out, but I will leave it up to you. For me it's an important aspect that the Ottoman subject be said what ethnicity he/she was: it was a multiethnic empire, with multiple languages, and very extended in size. Ethnicity was an important piece of it, and if you were an Albanian, an Armenian, or a Lebanese, you were still an Ottoman subject, however, you were bilingual and bicultural to say the least. To take an example from the same article: Rustem Pasha is described as an Ottoman-Croatian. Policy says only "Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability". Note the emphasis on the word "generally". Since Yahya writes about being an Albanian, it means he found that relevant.
 * The devsirme system mentioning: I find the mentioning interesting for the English speaking reader to have that piece of information. Nowhere in Western Europe was there a blood tax, and the article will attract more readers, but I'll also leave this up to you, ultimately you do the edits, I do the review. I just gave it a try, but I want you to give the final brush, according to my suggestions. Neither of the above will be determining my review, anyways. --MorenaReka (talk) 13:13, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Can you please mark as done the ones that Zoupan raised and were resolved or will be skipped for now?
 * One item that still bothers me (he listed it above as a topic as well) is that Elsie says Dukagjin area, while the other sources as Houtsma and Gibb (and others) mention Dukagjin noble family. His birthplace in Taslica makes more sense if you think of him as descendant of the family rather as Dukagjin area/tribe. I was wondering how we can list both options without making it confusing.-- Mondiad (talk) 23:40, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I cannot mark "done" other editors' comments. They may decide to strike them out, or leave them there. Since I announced the day of promotion as November 28, I won't do that earlier, and will give plenty of time to all reviewers to make their comments, and then I'll make my decision.
 * Dukagjin family and Dukagjin area are two different things, so we may safely say that some authors say he was from the Dukagjin area, and others from the Dukagjin tribe. The second is more accredited since we have sources that he was cousin of that other poet, so he indeed seems related to the Dukagjin tribe. Now be careful, because one thing is the Dukagjin tribe, and another one is the noble Dukagjin family, on which there doesn't seem to be an article on wiki yet, but we know it existed. Again, you are invited to make your edits, and I'll review them. All I can do is to give suggestions. --MorenaReka (talk) 15:18, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * There is a Dukagjini family article. I mentions Dukaginzade Ahmed Pasha but there is no reliable reference to link it. Nevertheless, the logic of previous editors was pointing to the family, not the region. I am planning to list both option, but I am concerned it will add confusion. We cannot take off the "Dukagjin" piece as Zoupan alternative suggestion, since it is part of the name. --Mondiad (talk) 21:24, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * All I can say is just be bold and edit the way you think is appropriate. I don't think anybody is too shy here to comment or edit back, and wiki is a long editing process. Eventually the best comes out. If you can't find a decent source for the blood relationship of Yahya with Dukaginzade Ahmed Pasha, and/or link this latter with the Dukagjini family, then let's treat the whole thing as being from the Dukagjini region. Again, if there is no source to explain what "zade" means, i.e. son of the region/tribe/family, we can't speculate much. --MorenaReka (talk) 00:23, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I said that I will finish this review on November 28th, but since the commenting users have been recently active, there is no reason for me to wait any longer. I will grant two more days (for them), and then I'll make my decision. --MorenaReka (talk) 18:25, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I added both versions of the origin (that we discussed above). Let me know if I am missing any other topic, but I don't think so. --Mondiad (talk) 21:11, 20 November 2015 (UTC)