Talk:Yakshagana

Note
Hi the image showing badaguthittu and thenkuthittu styles are the same ie from thenkuthittu style of make up.please add a genuine image of thenkuthitthu style. Hi It is great that I find the description of Yakshagana and Hulivesha etc,. It would be nice to know when and where the performance is? or e-mail address to the groups to find out their performance schedule. Thanks bjr

Image
I am adding the same image I found in Mangalore page. If anyone have better image please post it. --Shivu 08:13, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Removal of Dravidian topics template
It is pointless to remove the Dravidian topics template for personal reasons and I know why you removed it. Wikipedia is not for one person, but for everybody. It would be up to Administration to decide whether or not to remove this. Removing the template and stating that Yakshagana has lot of things in common with "North Indian" topics too is like removing a Khmer topics template for a Cambodian dance and stating that it has a lot of things in common with Chinese dance even though its roots are Khmer. Now I have personally created a Yakshagana page without knowing there was already one created. I have even went to the library to check out a book on Yakshagana to add to Wikipedia. It was a wonderful learning experience to discover that the Kannadigas have a classical dance since not much is heard about it, as well as the rest of Southern India. I notice that the cultures, arts, and languages of India are presented to the world in a false manner. Rewriting history, deletion of items, and moving towards a generic mix and match culture is not the way to go. It is the reason why that India still remains a mystery to the rest of the world, since people keep changing their culture trying to impress the world. People may detest Periyar Ramaswamy of the Self-respect movement, but please let me quote him by saying, "It is when we get rid of superiority and inferiority feelings we establish self-respect for ourselves."

Wiki Raja 15:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * As I said, the term "Dravidian" needs to sorted out in that template. What does "Dravidian" stand for? Dravidian group of languages? Yakshagana was performed based on Sanskrit dramas till recently. Don't try to push your viewpoints in whatever articles you wish. I appreciate your concern and hard work in knowing about Yakshagana, thanks for that. But confining Yakshagana as "Dravidian" is simply not acceptable.Gnanapiti 18:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * With all due respect, I do not know how many times I have given the definition for Dravidian. Many times Gnanapiti. So many times I have been asked the same questions, and I have given the same answer for the repetitive questions asked. Dravidian is a family of related ethnicities and languages. Just like Indo-Aryan is a family of related ethnicities and languages. I have even provided a referenced source for that. For one, you did not have a problem having Yakshagana posted as a link on the Dravidian topics template, until an anonymous user came on and stated that we put Tamil Eelam on the template. I would dislike (I do not believe in using the word hate, by the way) for Yakshagana or any other Kannada related material to be taken off the Dravidian topics template since we are all ethnicities whose mother tongues are of a commanality - Dravidian. Indo-Aryan ideas may have influenced some of our cultures, but that does not change us from being Dravidian. Let me give you an example, the early Pallavas and Cholas have travelled frequently into Southeast Asia introducing the Tamil version of the Ramayana by Kambar (which came from the Sanskrit version of the Ramayana by Valmiki). Bali, Cambodia, and Thailand, for example, demonstrate the Ramayana in their dances and martial arts. Does that make them non-Malay, non-Khmer, or non-Thai? Does that make them Dravidian or Indo-Aryan? We have certain dances in Tamil Nadu, one of them which portrays the Mahabharata (Mahaparatam in Tamil). It is a Dravidian styled dance form to an Indo-Aryan story. Anyways, I am not against you and strongly feel that you are an asset to this group. Everybody is welcome, and most definitely you. We all just have to learn about each other to understand our differences. Kind regards. Wiki Raja 20:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment I think more than anything else, there is a disconnect here. I get the feeling that all the parties mentioned in the above discussion mean well but really need to get down to discussing some important issues. Why dont we invite a larger audience to participate. One thing that we need to keep in mind is not all facets of Kannada culture is Dravidian. Kannada language I know originates from a proto-dravidian source and is undoubtedly dravidian. But Yakshagana is a different issue. Just because it is practiced and popularised by Kannada / Tulu people, it does not make it a dravidian art. It is an art form that has found expression among southerners who speak a dravidian tongue. It is hard for me to believe that people of coastal Karnataka would consider themselves dravidian. So lets first sort out what is "dravidian", what is "inherited by dravidans" and what is clearly not dravidian in Kannada culture. Edting warring and reverting is not going to establish anything. Please refrain from edit wars.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 01:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment : The problem here stems from a confused understanding of what the term "Dravidian" means.  Dravidian is a term that has many meanings depending on the context -
 * Dravidian - This was coined by Caldwell, a linguist in the 19th century to describe a group of languages(not 'ethnicities').
 * Dravidian 'race' - Periyar, the father and Godfather of almost all major Tamil Nadu political parties was a proponent of this theory.
 * "Dravida" in literature - There are sporadic instances where the word "Dravida" has been used in Sanskrit literature and maybe in Tamil literature. I dont know of any instance where this word has been used in any of the other Dravidian or Indo Aryan languages.
 * 'Dravidian political parties' - These are political parties that follow(or claim to follow) Periyar's ideologies and all of them are mostly confined to TN.


 * Now, the two most important points that that we have to observe is -
 * 1,2 and 3 above have nothing to do with each other.
 * Except no.1, none of the others have any takers among serious scholars.


 * The Dravidian 'race' for example, was purely a concoction of Tamil Nadu politics of the mid 20th century. It has no takers anywhere else in India or the world.  Periyar probably took over where Hitler left off.  Be that as it may, no scholar who studies human 'races' recognises a 'Dravidian' race.


 * As for the mentions of "Dravida" in literature, the point to be noted is that in each instance where it is used, the meanings vary or many times, nobody knows for sure what it means. For example, "Dravida shishu" appears in the ''Soundarya lahari" but nobody knows for sure what it means and it is open to speculation.  It is said that the Manu Smriti mentions a certain "Dravida" tribe.  But that doesnt mean that the tribe spoke a "Dravidian" language or even that they lived where Dravidian language speakers live today.


 * So that leaves us with only one connotation that is defined in black and white. ie., Caldwell's definition.


 * So if Wikiraja can explain which of the above 3 meanings(or maybe something else) he is using, it will clear many misgivings that people have here. I hope he is not using all the 3 or more meanings in the same sentence/context.  Sarvagnya 03:20, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I have left a message for User:SameerKhan who I believe is a an expert on linguistics. He will be able to provide more info on this issue. If anyone knowns an expert on "race" please communicate with him/her to help solve this issue.Dineshkannambadi 03:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Firstly, in regards to Yakshagana I am interested in promoting the dance since we never hear of a classical dance from Karnataka. In general we hear of the classical dances of Kerala, Tamil Nadu, and Andra Pradesh, but we never hear of a classical dance from Karnataka. My purpose of all this is to promote cultures and their arts which are rarely heard of. Secondly, Sarvagnya's statement that Periyar probably took over where Hitler left off. What connections does Periyar have with Hitler? Periyar was against the caste system and was for the upliftment of the Dravidian civilizations. Is caste system bad or good? Is discrimination against people of lower and backwards castes bad or good? Is fascist nationalism bad or good? Is religious intolerance bad or good? I suppose that the answers to my questions can be sought on the following links:
 * "Hitler, the Supremo" – Miami Herald
 * In Modi’s Gujurat, Hitler is a textbook hero – Times of India
 * 'Nazi' row over Indian textbooks - BBC
 * All’s in a name, if it’s Hitler’s Cross: Jews frown on restaurant gimmick – Telegraph India
 * The Return of Hitler As Hero: The World Through Cracked Lenses – Zmag
 * Enough said for now. Wiki Raja 04:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * As usual Wiki Raja continues to paste totally unrelated and irrelevant links. As I've said before, the connotation for the term "Dravidian" need to be sorted out in the template itself. I hope Wiki Raja answers my questions in the template talk page. Thanks. Gnanapiti 04:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Dear Wikiraja, seems to me like you misunderstood my comment on Periyar. I'll explain it in more detail some other time.  But for now, will you please clarify as to what your understanding of the word is.  Is it 1,2,3 or something else?  Please explain or this is going nowhere.  And again, I didnt bother clicking on any of your links above.  Just so you know.  Thanks.  Sarvagnya 05:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * That is because truth hurts. Wiki Raja 05:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, ok I will clarify the meaning of the word Dravidian. Hey, wait a minute, didn't I just clarify it four times on Template talk:Dravidian topics on the following links below?


 * 10:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 10:43, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 11:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 23:36, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's one on your page Sarvagina:


 * 10:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's 2 on the Talk:Dravidian people page:


 * 20:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 18:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * And here's a whopping 1 on the Talk:Tamil people page:


 * 10:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Alright people, I am going to set the record breaker here for the last time:


 * The term Dravidian is a family of related ethnicities and languages. It does not connotate to a single language or ethnicity.


 * It does not mean a certain race since, there is only one race, which is the human race. Either my writing is incomprehensive, or it is a deliberation (factor of denial) which is causing some users to repeat their questions. I will not be wasting my time here giving lessons on how to read and comprehend simple English. Wiki Raja 05:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Almost forgot, here is another site I have found which could probably be the reason why there is so much rucuss and uproar in regards to posting anything positive on Dravidian civilizations:
 * Hitler "cool" in India.


 * Wiki Raja 05:52, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Who is this crazy person and why is he pasting spam all over wikipedia? India Rising 06:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

-

I don't know if my opinion will really clarify anything, but here's what I can say as a linguist. Some languages are related to each other; some aren't. That doesn't always mean the people who speak related languages are actually genetically related. It is true that some isolated cases of genetic research have shown, for example, that the Basques of Spain and France not only speak a language unrelated to Spanish or French, but are also genetically distinguishable from Spanish and French people. However, in the vast majority of cases, language, culture, race, and genetics are not connected so clearly. There are several examples to show this: take the Turks - they speak a Turkic language, but their culture is most strongly influenced by Mediterranean, Persian, and Arab societies, they do not look like other Turkic language speakers (Kazakhs, Turkmens, Uzbeks etc), and they are considered genetically most similar to other Mediterranean peoples (e.g. the Greeks). So what are they? One likely theory: they are historically Mediterranean people, who later assimilated with migrating Turkic speakers from the east, who brought with them Turkic and Persian culture along with a Turkic language, then later adopted Arab and Islamic culture, and even later, aspects of European culture. So does a Turkish dance count as a "Turkic concept", just because their language is Turkic? Or is it a "Mediterranean concept", because they are historically Mediterraneans? Why does this matter?

Let's return to the Dravidian issue. All we know for sure is that there are four major (and many more minor) South Asian languages that are closely related to each other but not related to the Indo-European family that spans most of the Indian Subcontinent. These were given the name "Dravidian". Now, while claims have been made that the speakers of these languages are also "racially" or "genetically" distinct from the speakers of Indo-European languages, there is no real scientific evidence for this. The genetic diversity seen in Indo-European speakers in India (as far as I have read) is just as varied as that seen in Dravidian speakers. The cultures of North and South India may have differences, but not always along linguistic lines. Sri Lanka is linguistically divided into Dravidian and Indo-European languages, but the cultural differences inside Sri Lanka are not as great as the cultural differences between Nepalis and Pakistanis, even though many of the languages of Nepal and Pakistan are Indo-European. Linguistic classification does not equal cultural classification. And about the genetics - people will always say things like "Dravidians are darker than North Indians, so they are genetically different." This is nonsense. I've seen people of all colors in Bangladesh, from white to dark, but they're all Bengali speakers (and thus Indo-European speakers). Clearly, there is genetic diversity but little linguistic diversity. Genetic classification does not equate linguistic classification. And if color really correlated with race and linguistics, then why are most Indians (even the Indo-European speakers) so much darker than, say, Germanic people, when they are linguistically related? Linguistic classification does not equate genetic classification.

Let's be realistic: like much of the world, the Indian Subcontinent has always been diverse - racially, ethnically, tribally, religiously, culturally, linguistically - the most likely situation is that there have always been many racial groups in the Subcontinent - ones whose languages are long gone. Successive migrations of people from all parts of the world have changed the culture, language, and physical characteristics of the inhabitants, but not in a uniform way. While there are people of all shades of skin color all across the Subcontinent, the languages that developed in each region were not based on the color of people's skin, but due to many other factors. Thus, white, brown, and black people of the same region would end up speaking, say, Telugu, or Assamese, regardless of what their genetic makeup might be. Compare this to the situation in the US, where people of many different ethnicities and races have come to one country, and for the most part, they speak Indo-European languages. Whether they are white, black, brown, yellow, red, whatever color... the majority speaks English or Spanish. India has always been this way - many different people from different origins come and end up assimilating.... some ended up adopting local Indo-European languages and others Dravidian ones, but not because they were genetically or racially one way or another.

So I'm not going to be able to take a side, but that's my (educated - at least on the linguistic side) opinion. --SameerKhan 11:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that skin color is not the issue. I have seen black, brown, and olive complected Tamils. It is ridiculous to base ethnicity on skin color. However, differences in physical features (ie. facial features) are a factor amongst different ethnicities, some more than others. As for the term Dravidian, it does not denote a single language, nor does it denote a single ethnicity. As I have been repeatedly stating, the term Dravidian is a family of related ethnicities and languages. Just like Indo-Aryan is a family of related ethnicities and languages. On can also say that India is like Europe, where we have in the North Scandinavians and in the South Medditeraneans. Wiki Raja 20:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks a lot SameerKhan for your learned input. I really appreciate your concern. Now, Wiki Raja, I had asked you some questions in the template talk page. I'm repeating them here, just so you know.
 * Please prove that there is something called "dravidian race" or "dravidian ethnicity" which is different from rest of India.
 * Please prove that so called "Dravidian culture" is all the way different from rest of India.
 * Please prove that Kannadigas belong to your "Dravidian race".
 * Prove that Kannadigas are more "ethnically related" to Tamilians or "Dravidians" for that matter, than to Marathas or "Indo Aryans".
 * As far as your interest towards articles on South India is concerned, I really appreciate your work. But the term "Dravidian" as used by you, is not acceptable on all articles.Gnanapiti 16:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Why do you keep asking me the same questions I keep answering? As per request I will repeat it again with a source:


 * "Dravidian has avenerable history as a label, and given that in modern times it has been employed in studies of Indian phenomena as diverse as language and temple architecture, literature and systems of land tenure, religion and race.” It can also be said that Central India including parts of Northern Karnataka and Andra Pradesh were a Frontier zone of some sort thus allowing certain fusions of Dravidian and Indo-Aryan cultures in some aspects."


 * I am not saying that the term Dravidian is a single ethnicity, or a single language. I am not saying that Tamils and Kannadigas are the same. All I am saying is that the term Dravidian is a family of related ethnicities and languages. Within this family, some ethncities and languages may be closely related, while others may not be so closely related. Now, you admit that you are repeating your questions. This will be my last time repeating my answers. Either there is some kind of misunderstanding or miscomprehension going on here, or this is a deliberate ploy to tantalize me to post something not so polite (which I would not stoop to that level, unlike others). Lastly, I do not know why you keep using the term race. Race is equivalent to species. The species that we all belong to are called Homo-sapiens. Therefore, there is only one race which is the human race.


 * Kind Regards. Wiki Raja 20:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The term Dravida specifically refers to Tamils and tamil nadu, in fact the word tamil itself is derived from the word dravida. Dravida as a identity for the other languages of the same family is only generic. Prof Caldwell didnt have a better name so he named these as dravidian languages. Kannada and Telugus dont consider themselves dravidian even though they accept that their languages have dravidian origins. It smacks of racial prejudice. Enough of your crappy one race philosophies. 59.92.32.86 21:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello 59.92.32.86, please refrain from doing original research. Please look here for wikipedia's guidelines. Also, do not try to instigate other authors by using foul languages. I believe User Wiki Raja has given a credible source. And I particularly agree his point about race :) Cheers!Praveen 22:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

-

Wikiraja's dubious reference
"Dravidian has avenerable history as a label, and given that in modern times it has been employed in studies of Indian phenomena as diverse as language and temple architecture, literature and systems of land tenure, religion and race.”  Ok. So what this Deshpande guy is saying is not different from what I am saying.  The word "Dravida" has different meanings depending on context.  For example a temple can be built in Dravidian style regardless of the mother tongue of the guy building it.

''"It can also be said that Central India including parts of Northern Karnataka and Andra Pradesh were a Frontier zone of some sort..." What sort?

''"...thus allowing certain fusions of Dravidian and Indo-Aryan cultures in some aspects." '' Ok. So?

And finally where does this reference support your claim that Dravidian is a family of related 'ethnicities(whatever the hell that is supposed to mean).'

Like the editor above says, all mentions of 'Dravida' earlier than Caldwell only seem to(even that is not conclusive) refer to Tamilians. No other people anywhere in the world have used it to describe themselves. Stop your Tamil revisionist crap.

It is thanks to people like you that millions of kids born in TN are still taught that 'Tamil is the mother of all languages', 'Tamil is the oldest language'(for God's sakes, even the WP page on Tamil had this BS until recently!!) and stupidly parrot that crap wherever they go much to the amusement and irritation of others.

It is thanks to people like you that many from TN believe that Tamil and Tamil 'culture' is the be all and end all of everything. No wonder then, that you hadnt heard of Yakshagana. No wonder then, that you still think Carnatic music and Bharatnatya were inventions of Tamil people.

If you hadnt heard of Yakshagana, dont blame 'Indo-Aryans' for it. Blame yourself and the likes of your Periyar for it. It is a crying shame that being from neighbouring TN, you hadnt even heard of Yakshagana. Stop blaming others for your ignorance.

Thank people like us on WP who've been fighting this systemic bias that people like you bring to WP. But for people like us(not just kannadigas on wp - i must commend Tamil editors like srkris, arvind and a few others too), you would probably never have heard of Yakshagana and continued to bask in your own ignorance.

As for Periyar, it is no secret that his actions against Brahmins was motivated more by some sort of dementia than any real concern for the 'downtrodden'. It is no secret that his own Naiker caste(and other so called non brahmin upper castes of TN) did and continues to play its role in perpetuating the caste wars in TN.

Can anybody from TN honestly deny these accusations? Stop even trying to defend Periyar's theories. Periyar's theory of a Dravidian race was motivated by cheap politics and nothing else. Hitler concocted his own Aryan race out of thin air and left the field open for Periyar to conveniently conjure up a 'Dravidian' race. Little wonder, that people outside TN havent even heard of these crappy theories. Yes 'crappy' is the kindest word I can use for Periyar's race theories.

'And coming back to the point, your reference proves nothing. Stop concocting a 'Dravidian ethnicity ' to suit your convenience.' Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment on citation-->Deshpande, Madhav M.; Peter Edwin Hook (1979). Aryan and non-Aryan in India

Sir, I read this citation and am trying to piece together what meaning it conveys. The issue of dravidian race or even any race is a very vast topic invloving historical developments, genetics, migrations and so on. A general and vague citation from one or two scholars provides no conclusive evidence to your claim that all South Indians are dravidians. This is not a topic that can be so easily concluded and hastily tagged. I think a good option would be to open a discussion on India Topics discussion board  where the debate will be more visible. thanksDineshkannambadi 15:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

In the meantime please refrain from adding this tag to other pages. Perhaps a tag "South Indian topics" would be more suitable. I would like to take this opportunity to learn more about the "dravidian race" myself (not being very knowledegable as of now) and this is a fine opportunity as any.Dineshkannambadi 15:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * As someone else had pointed out, it would then beprobably be a good idea to change the title to Dravidian and South Indian topics. Hopefully, every party can agree with that. Wiki Raja 18:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * While we should continue to search for more information to fully understand the exact nature of the "dravidianness" of South Indians (which I presume effects us to various degress depending upon whether we are Tamils, Kannadigas, Telugus or Malyalis), tagging those topics that are unique to Tamils as "dravidian topics", those topics that are common to more than one state (if it includes Tamil Nadu) as Dravidian and South Indian topics, those topics that are presently not popular in Tamil culture as just "South Indian topics" may be the way to go, atleast for now, to ensure the blocks on the respective articles come off. Just a suggestion from the top of my head.Thanks.Dineshkannambadi 19:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * No. Kannada, Tulu, Brahui etc., may be 'Dravidian' topics. But Bharatanatya, Yakshagana, Carnatic music etc., are not Dravidian topics.  So either rename this as 'South Indian topics' or simply delete this template.
 * And one more thing.. if anybody creates or if there already is, a, I will definitely add all these arts to that template too and I hope nobody will start complaining and replay this whole discussion when that happens.  Sarvagnya 19:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Seems like the two articles that are under debate are Carnatic music and Bharatanatya. Yakshagana is unique to Karnataka (and to a very small extent in Kerela). So this surely cant be the show stopper. Languages are not an issue.Dineshkannambadi 20:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Is it possible to specify that a "topic" only indicates present or long term participation of a group of people and does not imply an "origin". Its common knowledge that Carnatic music finds its roots in ancient Indian music not unique to any region of India. Bharatanatya's predecessor "Natya Shastra" was an Indian art again not unique to any particualr region.Dineshkannambadi 20:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Dinesh, it is not only a matter of pointing out the origins. The thing here is that, for example, "Yakshagana" may be of Karnataka but Yakshagana is not of Kannada.  Kalaripayattu may be of Kerala; but not of Malayalam.  Further, Kannada may be "Dravidian", that doesnt mean "Karnataka" is "Dravidian".  Majority of the languages spoken in South India may be "Dravidian", but "South India" is not "Dravidian".  Like the ip editor asked on another page, if Bharatanatya becomes popular in China, will it become a Chinese art?  Similarly just because it is popular in South India doesnt mean it is "South Indian" or "Dravidian".  Just because cricket is popular doesnt mean that it is an "Indian" game.  Sarvagnya 21:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Dear Sarvagnya, please refrain from comparing someone with Hitler. BTW: You have just lost the argument based on [| Godwin's law] :). Praveen 22:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Godwin's law... uh. huh. Is this the best defense you could cobble up for your 'thanthai'.  Anyway, if you dont have anything germane to add to this discussion, please, if you could take your banter offline.  Thanks.  Sarvagnya 01:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I am not defending anybody here. Please don't try to manipulate things. I don't know what you are talking about by saying he is our thanthai. Could you tell me why you feel that way? Here, authors are supposed to be disinterested. Its not a forum where one could use it to push his POV and 'defend' it. I hope that you do not compare someone with Hitler anymore since you have learned something (Godwin's law) new now. I felt this was germane to the discussion.Praveen 18:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Informative
This is really nice article about Yakshagana. It seems like its related to kathakali, but yet it looks distinct and awesome. Thanks for enlightening me with this new informationPraveen 22:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I understand race and arts are entirely different. Arts can be picked up by any one or any group of people purely based on location and availability of opportunities, socio religious movements and so on. I also understand that the art does not belong to or become a property of that race or group who inherited the art. But surely one has to give credit for local variants and influences that creep into arts when they are practiced in a certian location for a long period of time. For instance Bharatanatya in Tamil Nadu is not exactly the same as in South Karnataka. Carnatic music in South Karnataka or even Vijayanagara Empire of 14-16th century is not the same as in Tamil Nadu, Hindusthani music also may be slightly different in North Karnataka when compared to that in some of the Gharanas in U.P. There are bound to be some variants. I think we should focus on this aspect in these articles rather than tagging it. Given the socio-religious interactions in India over the last 2000 years or so, even to call Carnatic music as "topic of South India" would then be erroneous, in which case these articles should be free of tags and simply focus describing "local variants" and influences from other similar arts.Dineshkannambadi 01:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. On the same note, if Carnatic music can be South Indian topic, so can Hindustani music.  But am not sure Wikiraja feels the same way.  Both this template and the wikiproject for Dravidian 'civilisations' is a confused mish mash.  Terms like 'culture', 'civilisation', 'ethnicity' etc., are too loose for WP purposes.  Unless, somebody can explain them in no uncertain terms, I feel that these templates are just a waste of time.  Sarvagnya 01:35, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Response to Sarvagnya
"Dravidian has avenerable history as a label, and given that in modern times it has been employed in studies of Indian phenomena as diverse as language and temple architecture, literature and systems of land tenure, religion and race.” Ok. So what this Deshpande guy is saying is not different from what I am saying. The word "Dravida" has different meanings depending on context. For example a temple can be built in Dravidian style regardless of the mother tongue of the guy building it. - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

And Dravidian people can speak Indo-Aryan languages like in Maharastra and Gujurat. Therefore, as you argue about the Manu Smriti mentioning about the Pancha Dravidias (Tamils, Telugus, Kannadigas, Marathis, and Gujuratis). You stated that Dravidian is only a group of languages and not a group of ethnicities. If that is the case, can you explain to me why Marathi and Gujurati languages are considered Indo-Aryan languages? If Marathi and Gujurati are Indo-Aryan languages, and Tamil, Telugu, and Kannada are Dravidian languages – what does the Manu Smriti mean by Pancha Dravidas? Could it mean the 5 Dravidian ethnicities? I am beginning to see a contradiction here on your part.

"It can also be said that Central India including parts of Northern Karnataka and Andra Pradesh were a Frontier zone of some sort..." What sort? - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

That is for you to explain to me. "...thus allowing certain fusions of Dravidian and Indo-Aryan cultures in some aspects." Ok. So? - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

What happened? No, rebuttle here?

And finally where does this reference support your claim that Dravidian is a family of related ethnicities (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean). - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Mind your language.

Like the editor above says, all mentions of 'Dravida' earlier than Caldwell only seem to(even that is not conclusive) refer to Tamilians. No other people anywhere in the world have used it to describe themselves. Stop your Tamil revisionist crap. - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Mind your language, and show more civility & and tolerance towards other ethnic groups.

It is thanks to people like you that millions of kids born in TN are still taught that 'Tamil is the mother of all languages', 'Tamil is the oldest language'(for God's sakes, even the WP page on Tamil had this BS until recently!!) and stupidly parrot that crap wherever they go much to the amusement and irritation of others. - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I did not say that. You said that. Also, please refrain from personal attacks against me and my ethnicity.

It is thanks to people like you that many from TN believe that Tamil and Tamil 'culture' is the be all and end all of everything. No wonder then, that you hadnt heard of Yakshagana. No wonder then, that you still think Carnatic music and Bharatnatya were inventions of Tamil people. - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Once again, I did not say that. You said that. I am surprised that you actually believe that Tamil culture is the be all and end all of everything. As for Bharatanatayam, there are many sources which state that it is of Tamil origins. Can you show me at least one source that Bharatanatayam is of Kannadiga origins? As for Carnatic music, please do not get that mixed up with Karnataka. Surprise, surprise, take a look at this map here. This was British India in 1857. It seems that Tamil Nadu and Andra Pradesh was called Carnatic back then and that is where Carnatic music came from.

If you hadnt heard of Yakshagana, dont blame 'Indo-Aryans' for it. Blame yourself and the likes of your Periyar for it. It is a crying shame that being from neighbouring TN, you hadnt even heard of Yakshagana. Stop blaming others for your ignorance. - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Please do not put words in my mouth. Also, please do not accuse of things I do not do. That is called a personal attack, and more over it is considered lying. FYI, I was in a library and came across a book on Yakshagana. That was the first time I have hear of that dance. So, I have decided to write up a page on Yakshagana. To my surprise Gnanapiti left a message rebuking me for creating a page when I there was already one created (which I didn’t know). Also, that is when I made a new friend. Back to the blame game, I have not blamed anyone what so ever. Also, in regards to the Dravidian arts being recognized, the Malayalees did an awesome job in promoting Kathakali and Mohiniattam. Furthermore, they have even went to the extent to promote Kalarippayattu out of their own pockets (without New Delhi’s funding). As for the dance of Kuchipudi, the people of Andra Pradesh also did a great job in promoting their art. As for Bharathanatayam, that too was well promoted in Tamil Nadu. Now, for the Yakshagana question. Who promoted that dance? Nobody? Stop blaming other people.

Thank people like us on WP who've been fighting this systemic bias that people like you bring to WP. But for people like us (not just kannadigas on wp - i must commend Tamil editors like srkris, arvind and a few others too), you would probably never have heard of Yakshagana and continued to bask in your own ignorance. - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

You're joking right? Also, what's with the personal attacks?

As for Periyar, it is no secret that his actions against Brahmins was motivated more by some sort of dementia than any real concern for the 'downtrodden'. It is no secret that his own Naiker caste(and other so called non brahmin upper castes of TN) did and continues to play its role in perpetuating the caste wars in TN. - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I do not believe in a caste system, so please stop the caste system politics. Secondly, what do you mean by other so called non brahmin upper castes? Are you against anyone who is not Brahmin now? It seems to me that you are offended by Periyar standing up to injustice. For more info, please visit www.periyar.org. Enjoy.

Can anybody from TN honestly deny these accusations? Stop even trying to defend Periyar's theories. Periyar's theory of a Dravidian race was motivated by cheap politics and nothing else. Hitler concocted his own Aryan race out of thin air and left the field open for Periyar to conveniently conjure up a 'Dravidian' race. Little wonder, that people outside TN havent even heard of these crappy theories. Yes 'crappy' is the kindest word I can use for Periyar's race theories. - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

You're joking again right? Also, I notice that you are obsessed with the word "concocted". In regards to comparing Hitler to Periyar, one must definitely be on concoctions. Lastly, please let me leave you with a wonderful quote from Periyar:


 * "I express, plainly and openly, thoughts which occur to me, and which strike me as right. This may embarrass a few; to some this may be distasteful; and a few others may even be irritated; however, all that I utter are proven truths and not lies..’’ – E.V. Ramasami Naicker

Wiki Raja 03:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It takes one ass**** to support another ass****, with both of them bordering on lunacy. Soriyar was no great Jesus. 59.92.74.69 06:27, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

- Please show some respect to other users and to yourself by not cursing or putting others down. Wiki Raja 08:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * "We are fit to think of `Self-Respect' only when the notion of superior and inferior caste is banished from our land." - E.V. Ramasami Naicker


 * Carnatic music Lets not get carried away with British maps. British drew their maps the way they saw it in the 18th - 19th century time frame. By the way the non-anglasized name for the music is not "carnatic music", its Karnataka Sangeetha Shastra-- A.S. Panchapakesa Iyer. But that itself does not mean it originated in Karnataka either given its ancient history.Dineshkannambadi 17:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Bharata natyam As for Bharatanatayam, there are many sources which state that it is of Tamil origins. Can you show me at least one source that Bharatanatayam is of Kannadiga origins?

Can you prove conclusively from non-Tamil sources that it originated in Tamil Nadu? (no offence meant here, just trying to examine the issue more objectively) Can anyone prove sage Bharata was from Tamil Nadu. It was originally written and codified in Sanskrit writing, Natya Shastra, a non dravidian language)Dineshkannambadi 17:44, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * So now you want a neutral source? Should it be more like the work, "history of kannada", by Dr. Kamat (which is used as reference on every kannada article)? Anyways, please see my reference in "Bharathanatyam" article (the encyclopedia britannica link. You will need a subscription to see). Praveen 15:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

My Verdict
Dineshkannambadi, I do not know why I am the one who has to show physical proof from references, when no one else has even shown an inch of referenced sources in their claims. Even after being suggested by a good person on the situation of name change for the template we are talking about, I have went half ways to accept the change of name from Dravidian topics to Dravidian and South Indian topics. However, you all are not pleased, including yourself, Dineshkannambadi. Questions have been asked of me in which I have legitimately answered with given sources, only to be asked the same questions again. Is this some kind of game? Also, I have never attacked anyone on the basis of ethnicity, nationality, religion, etc., but the audience and especially Sarvagnya have taken the liberty to do so. So, tell me, is there some sort of biasedness going on in here?

Coming back to the question. The Natya Shastra is not the sole book of Bharatanatayam and neither can Bharata Muni be the one and only founder of Bharatanatayam since this style of dance has been in existence well before. However, Bharata Muni is credited to his contribution and excel of the dance. Prior to the 20th century, it was originally called Cathir. It was not till the early 1900s when this dance form was brought back to life by the Tamil Brahmin community who were well veresed in the Sanskrit language and thus giving the name Bharatanatayam. Below are again, my referenced sources on Bharatanatayam and Carnatic music:

Bharatanatayam: ''"In historical times there is abundant evidence of the importance of dance as a performing art in Indian culture generally, and specifically in Tamil society where Bharata Natyam originated and evolved. Surviving texts of the golden age of Tamil literature and poetry known as the Sangam Age such as the Tolkappiyam, as well as the later Silappadikaram, testify to a variety of dance traditions which flourished in these times. The latter work is of particular importance, since one of its main characters, the courtesan Madhavi, is a highly accomplished dancer. The Silappadikaram is a mine of information of ancient Tamil culture and society, in which the arts of music and dance were highly developed and played a major role. When the Pallavas of Kanchipuram and the Pandyas of Madurai were in power during the sixth through ninth centuries A.D., a great transformation in religious consciousness occurred, known as the Bhakti movement. It was an upsurge of fervent reiligous devotionalism centering on a personal deity such as Siva which originated among the Tamils and eventually spread to other parts of the Indian sub-continent" - Kilger, George (1993) Bharata Natyam in Cultural Perspective'' Manohar American Institute of Indian Studies, New Delhi, p. 2.

This style of dance can also be seen in the dance forms of Kerala and Andra Pradesh. But is absent in the dances of Northern India. Now, some people will idiotically say, "well, there are Punjabis, and Chinese, and Gujuratis who are learning Bharata Natayam. Then isn't it a Northern Indian and a Chinese dance?" This is the same as asking if a Tamil learns Kathak, would that automatically make Kathak a Tamil dance?

Carnatic music: "The popular South Indian music form called Carnatic music is rooted in classical Tamil music. The advent of Tamil music began with musical grammar in the Tholkapiam era (BCE 400 – BCE 200). During the Silappadhikaram period of the 2nd century CE, Carnatic music branched out profusely in the pasura periods of Thevaram and Divyaprapandhams (7th – 9th centuries CE)." - '''Sundaram, Vi. Pa. Ka. (2000). Tamil Classical Music. Chicago: International Tamil Language Foundation, p.1143.'''

Another rash claim would be that since Carnatic rhymes with Karnataka, it must be from Karnataka. People, please refrain from these nonsensical questions. I understand the sole purpose of this circus expedition, and that is to rid of Dravidian templates for fear that other people may read it and it may be of embarassment to some since there may be those who feel that Dravidians are primitive and also resemble that of Indigenous Australians and Eastern Africans such as Somalians, Ethiopians, and Eritreans. I will stop here and leave you all with yet another quote from Periyar.


 * Man must remove by himself his feelings of inferiority, the feeling that he is lesser born than other beings, and attain self-confidence and self-respect. - E.V. Ramasami Naiker

Now, I am off for a short wikibreak. Wiki Raja 23:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

My Replies

 * My citations (with reference to sculptures in Pattadakal- Badami Chalukya, 8th century)

''Various kinds of musical instruments like Veena, flute, conch, drums etc are found in these sculptures. dancing girls are also carved. One record speaks of one actor called Achala was is decsribed as well versed in Bharata's Natya Shastra. Thus music, dance and drama were in an advanced stage''' --Dr. Suryanath U. Kamat, A Concise history of Karnataka from pre-historic times to the present, Jupiter books, MCC, Bangalore, 2001 (Reprinted 2002) OCLC: 7796041

Let us not forget that The Badami Chalukyas were contemporaries of the Pallavas. Do you see the similarities in the two citations by Kilger, George and Suryanath Kamath ?


 * My citation (with reference to evolution of carnatic music)

''In the history of Indian music we find several eminent persons authoring rare works after considerable research. In the begining music consisted of a few ragas and without Tala. Maharishis, Alwars, Nayanara and other devotees composed slokas and hymns for worshipping god. They sang and danced to attain mental peace and for sharing their supreme joy with others, they have left behind their works. Of these the very first is Valmiki who in the form of slokas set up a beautiful pattern, told the story of Sri Rama through Rama's sons and disciples Lava and Kusa in the Aswamedha hall. In this fashion several masters appeared on the music stage and through their research gave to music lakshana and composed numerous songs. It is through these that art amd music flourished in grandeur. All these compositions were meant as obeisance to god through slokas. Below is given as list of works on music, the authors and the period.''

NO.-->Name of work-->Author-->Period 1. --->Natya sastra-->Bharata--->4th cen BCE 2.---> Tattilam--->Tatilar--->4th cen BCE 3.--->Brihaddesi--->Matanga--->5th cen CE 4.--->Sangeeta Samaya--->Parsvadeva--->12th cen CE 20.--->Sangraha Choodamini--->Govindacharya--->18th cen CE

(I have left out the No 5 thru No 19. But I can scan it for you if required) Though these masters engaged themselves in research and composed songs, it was Purandaradasa who is considered the Sangeetha Pitamaha who lived in the 15th century and the stalwarts who followed him like Sri Tyagaraja....we know the rest of the names right?

-Karnataka Sangeeta Sastra-Theory of Carnatic music by Vidwan A.S. Panchapakesa Iyer (2006), printed at Zion Printers, Chennai p8.

As you can see, if you have one scholar who claims carnatic music branched out in the 2nd cen CE in Tamil country, there is another who claims it originated with Valmiki and was brought to todays format by Purandaradasa.

I have nothing against you personally and would like to see this "tag" topic come to a close amicably, and I dont see race as a tangible asset to fight over. I am trying to piece my way thru this foreign issue and am hoping I am not making a fool of myself. thanks.Dineshkannambadi 04:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * That seems to be a very civil reply unlike other users in WP. I strongly agree that Purandaradasa contributed a lot. In your citation, you mentioned about the alwars and nayanmars being the forerunners of using Carnatic music. My contention is from where did they originate (at least the majority)? Also, I feel that WikiRaja's map can not be ignored outright. Also, I think its time to start a motion against 59.92.74.69(Please see his comments [here]) Don't you agree?. Praveen 19:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * As you can see, if you have one scholar who claims carnatic music branched out in the 2nd cen CE in Tamil country, there is another who claims it originated with Valmiki and was brought to todays format by Purandaradasa.
 * Infact, for every one so called scholar who talks of a tamil origin, there are not one but dozens who speak of vedic origins and valmiki ramayana. This hollow claim that it started in Tamil is held only by fringe tamil authors, which patently partisan sites like 'tamilnation.com' publish.  This debate has gone on for months on the Carnatic music page where a couple of tamil-pov pushers havent convinced anybody.  Indian arts have developed as a pan Indian tradition.  Nobody can claim ownership over it.  Carnatic music too developed out of a pan-Indian tradition.  Purandara dasa gave it a more or less finished format.  Even after purandara dasa, CM has continued to evolve.  Even Bharatanatya, let me just make a quick comment, did NOT originate in tamil nadu nor is it native to tamilnadu.  Even dance owes its origins to Natyashastra.  Now dont ask me whether there was no music and dance prior to natya shastra or the vedas.  there may have been.  Dance and music may have been there since the dawn of mankind.  But our historians have only been able to go back till the vedas.  Not beyond that.  Once we are able to go beyond that, maybe we can attribute all languages, arts etc., to tamil which according to tamils has been in existence since the wooly mammoths(see Sangam, Lemuria etc.,.)  Sarvagnya 19:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Usage of word Karnatik-->Rashtrakuta inscription of 753 CE
The Samangadh copper plate grant (753) confirms that feudatory Dantidurga defeated the Vallabha Kirtivarman II of Badami and with a small army humbled the great Karnatik army (refering to the army of the Badami Chalukyas) which had earlier won victories over the Kings of Kanchi, Kerela, Chola, Pandya, King Harsha of Kanauj and Vajrata.

Pandit B.N. Reu, History of the Rashtrakutas (Rathodas), 1933, Publishing Scheme, Jaipur (Reprinted 1997), p54

Just to share the age old name of Karnataka region.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 01:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

RE:My Replies
Though these masters engaged themselves in research and composed songs, it was Purandaradasa who is considered the Sangeetha Pitamaha who lived in the 15th century and the stalwarts who followed him like Sri Tyagaraja.... we know the rest of the names right? -Karnataka Sangeeta Sastra-Theory of Carnatic music by Vidwan A.S. Panchapakesa Iyer (2006), printed at Zion Printers, Chennai p8.''

Yes... Sri Muthuswamy Dikshitar, Sri, Syama Sastri and Swati Tirunal...

If you go back several pages to the Forward section it will state, "The present book 'Karnataka Sangita Sastra' was originally writen in Tamil and so great was Iyer's enthusiasm that he wrote the entire book of 160 pages in his own handwriting and got it printed by the ofset process."

Now, if you turn to page 13. you will see that the author gives two theories of the origination of the name Carnatic. "Since Kannada is the language of Karnataka, there is reason to believe that this has been called Carnatic music. Also the word 'carnatic' taking after the Tamil word 'karnatakam' means ancient or old and this form of music, therefore, might have been called Carnatic music" -Karnataka Sangeeta Sastra-Theory of Carnatic music by Vidwan A.S. Panchapakesa Iyer (2006), printed at Zion Printers, Chennai. Forward page and pp. 8 & 13.

Wiki Raja 23:08, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * So clearly there is no consensus even among Scholars where the music came from and I dont think we are wise enough make that call either. If we are going to argue about where the "name" came from we would be splitting hairs and missing the real point. I think we should just enjoy the music and dance and move on.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck.Dineshkannambadi 18:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reply. Tamil and Kannadiga scholars both claim Carnatic music as from their heritage. However, Kannadigas, Tamils, Malayalees, and Telugus for example share a lot of commonalities amongst each other and constitute the Dravidian family. Wiki Raja 04:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

LGBT template & Homophobia on Yakshagana
What is wrong with having an LGBT series template on Yakshagana? Afterall isn't it the men who paint and dress themselves like women for the dance? Also, LGBT does not necessarily denote to only gays. LGBT stands for Lesbian Gay Bisexual and Transgender. Isn't Yakshagana a transgender dance? This is not a put down for the article, unless there are some folks who are homophobic. Homophobia is the fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals. Anyways, not only is there hate towards ethnic Tamils on this talk page, but there is also hate towards homosexuals. Even though I am not gay, I strongly feel that discrimination against people based on their sexual orientation is morally wrong. Therefore, this talk page promotes bigotry, prejudice and hatred towards other peoples sexual orientations, ethnicities, and religious backgrounds. Wiki Raja 22:19, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Please tell me you're kidding! The reason why men play women's roles has a historical and cultural background, it has nothing to do with transgendered people. All your arguments are completely misplaced because you're mixing up two very unrelated topics. Max - You were saying? 08:09, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Please. Thank you. Sarvagnya 09:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

No references at all
There is not a single reference about anything in this article. adding OR tag. Praveen 22:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Please have a look at the references I've added. I think they cover all points fact tags had been placed. I'm removing fact and OR tags. Thanks, Gnanapiti 22:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Two Variants?
There is no description at all of the two variants, apart from the fact that one is used in the north, while the other is popular in the south. And two pictures of a guy who look pretty much the same.--SidiLemine 13:12, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, I added what I coul find.--SidiLemine 15:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll add more information on the variants. Thanks for bringing this up. Gnanapiti 15:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Folk Art?
It is very sad to note that Yakshagana has been placed next to folk dances like Bhangra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_folk_dances. We need to do something about it. Yakshagana rhythms are one of the most sophesticated and complicated for any art in India strictly follwos classical Tala system and not folk groves as in Bhangra. The dance needs years of learning of abhinaya and practice of scholarly debate. The dialog is spontanious and improvisation of all of its part, dialog, dance and music is a unique feature not seen in any other art form. We need to create a section called semi classical art forms and add Yakshagana. http://thoughtslot.blogspot.com/2008/05/some-observations-on-yakshagana.html ~rAGU (talk)

Invitation
Yakshagana Raga and Yakshagana Tala are studied in the scholarly works of Bhagavatha Narayanappa Uppura, Prof. Sridhara Uppura and in the celebrated book Chandogati of scholar Sediyapu Krishna Bhatta. Please update this aricle in making this an invaluable contribution to Yakshagana and Wikipedia.

Please have a look at newly created Yakshagana Raga and Yakshagana Tala pages.

~rAGU (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 04:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC).

Costal Karnataka
It is incorrect to mention Yakshagana as an art of coastal Karnataka. When was Thirthahalli, Sirasi, Siddapura, Sagara, Yellapura been in coastal Karnataka? Artists like Gode Narayana Hegde, Kolagi Anantha Hegde and Bhagavatha Kolagi Keshava Hegde, Shankara Bhagavatha Yellapura, Gopalachari Thirthahalli. Looks like it is a display of regionalism by some one from South Canara. Please do not revert the correction.

~rAGU (talk)

Can you please provide a reliable source for your claim? The source mentioned in the article does not mention anything about Shimoga. It say only about South Canara, Udupi and North Canara Districts, which form the coastal region of Karnataka.188.50.55.122 (talk) 06:27, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

North Canara is not coastal district. Thanks. Is Sirsi a coastal town? Please lookup map. 199.246.40.54 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:53, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Urgent cleanup
Of late, much material is added to the article, without sourses and references and some original research and comments on eminent writers (Karanth); and the article has lost shape to an extent that, even one website link appears in main article! General clean up and copy editing and neutral point of writing / editing is urgently required; that will be justice to an article on this great, unique art form.Rayabhari (talk) 14:57, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Separating list of Yakshagana artists
The heading "Known Yakshagana Artists" includes so many names and of course, no source, and in good faith one can take it. But the list is very lengthy, and certainly there is scope for further development of list of artists, with their specialisations if required. I propose to put the list of artists in a separate page called "List of Yakshagana Artists" with subsections like Bhagavaths, background artists, stree vesha etc and the List can be accessed from the main page also. With this separation of the page, the main page looks good and tidey with relavant source ( in any case, the list can be accessed by clicking the link).Rayabhari (talk) 05:05, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Indic removals from article body
I understand the first edit, removing the Indic from the lede, but why from the "Etymology" section? GenQuest "Talk to Me" 21:06, 9 May 2014 (UTC)