Talk:Yan tan tethera/Archive 1

Fell rights
Fell rights are certainly still in use in the area where I live. I think they are standard practice throughout the Pennines and Cumbria. Does anyone know? (I struggle to find published references, but I could cite legal documents.) Perhaps it would be better to delete the short paragraph which mentions obsolescence - it doesn't really add to the article. What does anyone else think?  D b f i r s   07:05, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Vigesimal systems
I came across this wiki page while researching vigesimal systems in other languages (Austronesian in my case). Thanks to all who contributed It's a wonderful example of a pre-literate counting system surviving into the 20thC century in an unlikely place. I've added a reference to Carol Justus' paper, where she uses this very system to illustrate different pre-literate number cycles. (I'll add some more when I've got them organised) And perhaps I might be allowed to correct a few misconceptions (here and there only)?

It is also unusual in starting again at 15, with a special word for 15. Most people count using hands and toes, to 20, and some mark 15 (as they mark 5) by 'going over to the other side'. I've only (so far) come across a special unique word for 15 in Inuit (Greenland) and a couple of languages in Vanuatu. Well done, Wales!

--Richardparker01 (talk) 11:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Query
When I was very young, my grandmother (from good old Worcestershire farming stock) taught me a version of this that started "Yan tan tethera", but I'm sure it continued with two more "ethera" formations, not one. My memory provides "Yan tan tethera, fethera methera pip", or possibly a second "tethera", and then on to verses I've forgotten. Is this just a garbling, or a genuine alternate version? Katharineamy (talk) 21:24, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Aviation checklist "BUMMFITCH"
It is no accident that someone chose to use something similar to "bumfit" for the mnemonic of a pre-landing checklist. See, for example, the AD for Dunkeswell (EGTU), particularly 2.20, line 4.c "Use is made of the grass areas outside the runway strips for sheep grazing."

Pilots landing on grass strips were, and still are, well-advised to check for sheep, and if needed, make a low pass before landing, to clear them off the active runway. Since pilots and shepherds make use of the same patches of turf, and quite possibly the same pubs (see the writings of Harald Penrose for examples of that) it is only natural that they would also share bits of vocabulary such as this. __Just plain Bill (talk) 12:43, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

If we want to keep the link to BUMMFITCH from being deleted the significance needs to be made explicit. Is there any reliable source that makes the link or is it just us noticing the similarity? I cannot see one in the linked article, which is the most obvious place for it.--Sabrebd (talk) 08:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "Golden age" aviators (ca. 1920~1930) operated on patches of turf. (Aviators in the 21st century still use turf runways-- see info for runway 4/22 at Mansfield, Massachusetts for example.) Sheep graze on turf. I'm still looking for online text to describe the well-known advisability of clearing sheep off the runway with a low pass before landing. As stated above, pilots and shepherds have shared the use of certain patches of turf for many decades. I'm not sure how much clearer the connection can be made, using material available online. How much clearer does it need to be to justify inclusion in a "See also" section, which by its nature often points to tangential information? __Just plain Bill (talk) 12:14, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Here, for your amusement, is an image of aerodrome 1B9, showing runway 4/22 crossing the paved runway 14/32. Main reason for this little post-script is to point out that one aim of Wikipedia is to build the web. (I find it amusing that one way to spell that link is "BTW" which also may mean "by the way.") __Just plain Bill (talk) 12:46, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I added a little parapraph on the possible ethymology of the expression in the BUMMMFITCHH article. Maybe this will help. MichaelXXLF (talk) 16:57, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I just removed that, saving a pointer to it in Talk:BUMMMFITCHH. Until we can find some verification, the "see also" item here, and the hat-note there, will keep this possible connexion from disappearing. __Just plain Bill (talk) 23:37, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I see we still have an editor removing it about once a week. First, it is now in the "See also" section, which I believe is a suitable place for "marginally relevant" information such as this. Second, a quote from the Wikipedia guideline on linking: __Just plain Bill (talk) 18:15, 14 June 2009 (UTC) I just spelled it out on the BUMMMFITCHH page. Let's see how well that sits... __ Just plain Bill (talk) 22:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Think carefully before you remove a link altogether—what may seem like an irrelevant link to you may be useful to other readers
 * I notice the connection still is spelled out. Perhaps it needs to be called out somewhere or somehow, rather than just a naked "see also"? (Maybe the other place in the article where bumfit is mentioned?) --jpgordon:==( o ) 16:38, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * p.s. I was tempted to say "counting system formerly used for sheep, which occasionally have been seen to infest turf runways." but let it go. Would have been a tad over the top, I think. Just plain Bill (talk)
 * Got any reliable sources regarding the coincidence of the words? --jpgordon:==( o ) 03:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * We all noticed the question the first time it was asked, thanks. Still waiting for an answer, as you will have been able to see plainly... __ 04:18, 19 February 2010 (UTC) Sorry, that was rude. How about the discussion happening at Talk:BUMMMFITCHH? __ Just plain Bill (talk) 15:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * BUMMMFITCHH is up for deletion, so that might solve the problem. --TraceyR (talk) 00:06, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Possible game rhyme/song connection?
Some might remember a song 'One, two, three O'Leary', recorded by Des O'Connor amongst others. I had always assumed that the last word referred to some Irish personage, but it is evidently associated with the children's ball-bouncing game Two balls and a wall. It occurs to me (prompted by the un-sectioned query of 12 June at the top of this page) that it might ultimately derive from the word for seven in this system. Anyone know of a relevent reference, perhaps in the works of the Opies? 87.81.230.195 (talk) 23:12, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

[Untitled]
When I was a child (I am now in my seventies) my Scottish grandmother taught me a nonsense rhyme which I am sure is, at least in part, a garbled version of a traditional sheep count. It went: Eenty Deenty Tithery Mithery Bampf Aleery Over Dover Ram Stam Toosh

I'm pretty sure that everything after bampf is nonsense, but that the first five are recognizably variants of one, two, three, four, five. 24.79.97.138 (talk) 23:31, 12 June 2010 (UTC)       gwynflynn  03:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC) After reading th word list in the yan tan section and the comments below it seems clear to me that oleery is a verion of lethera, just as over dover  echos hovera, dovera. 24.79.97.138 (talk) 23:31, 12 June 2010 (UTC)gwynflynn, June 12 2010

Hovera, Dovera were 8 and 9 in the Keswick area (and similar words were used in the Nidderdale area). There is a German counting song which begins "eene, deene ...." Does anyone know the rest? These are not nonsense, they are the old Celtic numbers preserved in children's rhymes, sheep-counting and knitting, but the words have been morphed to sometimes unrecognisable forms in some areas. Only in Wales are the numbers still regularly used, though they are preserved throughout Cumbria and the Yorkshire Dales, even as far south as Lincolnshire, and as far north as the Scottish borders. Does anyone recognise similar numbers in Manx or Cornish? Only "yan" is still in everyday use in normal conversation (as far as I know). '' d b f i r s   12:25, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * There is a German counting song which begins "eene, deene ...."
 * There are many counting songs beginning "eene, deene, dotz", but I always assumed it was a garbled version of French "un, deux, trois". Unoffensive text or character (talk) 10:55, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

After reading the list of words under he yan tan entry I'm pretty sure that oleery is a version of lethera, just as over dover is hovera, dovera. Gwynflyn, June 12, 2010

Table of southern variants
Not sure I got the district headings right... I think this could stand to go in a subsection unto itself, perhaps after the "Cumbria, Cumberland and Westmoreland" table. Anyone care to check it and chuck it into the article?

Variations in Southern England
Surely the column for Southern England is missing a value for 9? It can't be Dik... MarkRae (talk) 14:59, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Right, "Dauver" was missing. Fixed. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 15:20, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

fingers and base 5
The new paragraph is interesting, and I'm glad to have read it, but it smells of OR. Also:
 * In particular, the names of the numbers fit a pattern in which the index finger and forefinger each represent ....

Where I come from, index finger and forefinger are synonyms! —Tamfang (talk) 02:51, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

It's not just where you come from - if you look up 'forefinger' in Wikipedia, it directs you to 'index finger'. But the full quote is:
 * In particular, the names of the numbers fit a pattern in which the index finger and forefinger each represent 0 when retracted, 1 when bent, and 2 when straight, while the other three fingers each represent 5 when extended. The rhyming transitions occur with the straightening of a finger, and the pattern repeats at intervals of 5. Thus, with two hands, a person can count up to 399.

399? How so? Using two fingers to count 1-5, one has 8 fingers left. I don't see how this enables one to count past 45. I think this needs an explanation, and a reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.84.146.74 (talk) 09:53, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * the forefinger on the off hand would have the same 0, 1, 2 significance, but counting the "Fills" of the first hand. the first hand is 20 allowing the off hand to tally fills gives you 400. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.129.239.7 (talk) 02:48, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Information
Information that should be added:
 * Pronunciation of these number-words.
 * More on etymologies. These terms are generally implied to be of Celtic origin, but some word-forms do not seem to fit in in that respect. Also, what form of Celtic?--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 10:23, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

"Popular culture"
First item in the list "In popular culture":

"The English composer Harrison Birtwistle (born 1934) composed a chamber opera entitled Yan Tan Tethera (subtitled 'a mechanical pastoral') in 1984 with a libretto by the poet Tony Harrison. It is based on a folk tale about two shepherds, and includes sheep being counted using 'Yan Tan Tethera' and the rival 'One Two Three' system."

I have a high regard for the works of Birtwistle, but hadn't previously thought of them as examples of "popular culture". -- Hoary (talk) 23:54, 18 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Same for Finnegans Wake and some of the other novels listed, which I'd rather class as "high culture". However, the "high(brow)"/"low(brow)" culture division is frequently criticised, for good reasons, and "In culture" would be a better section title anyway. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:51, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Catweazle used these to count. He was from the 11th century.86.8.144.235 (talk) 17:01, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 13 March 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved  (t &#183; c)  buidhe  11:17, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Yan Tan Tethera → Yan tan tethera – Per WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CAPS and MOS:NUM. Ordinal and cardinal numbers are not proper names (in English, Welsh, or any other relevant language), nor are counting or other traditional systems (see in particular MOS:DOCTCAPS), nor are rhyme/meter schemes (except where their names contain things that are proper names in their own right), nor are folk games and pastimes and other folkloric practices (cf. MOS:GAMECAPS). Some over-capitalisation in the main text will also need to be corrected. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:29, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nom and create a DAB here for this and Yan Tan Tethera (opera) per WP:DIFFCAPS.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:39, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
 * There's already a disambiguation hatnote, so we don't need a DAB page (WP:TWODABS). Having one won't break anything, of course, but the counting system, which has attracted a lot of academic and other attention over the last several decades especially, is clearly the primary topic over an obscure modern opera named after the counting system. The opera has no coverage (that we're citing) outside of tertiary sources on opera and biographies of its composer, who is more notable for other works.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:25, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Suppprt, as per Crouch, even though slightly like a song title. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:51, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Even if were interpreted as a folk song instead of as a sheep- and thread-tally system, it would still get lower-cased per MOS:INCIPIT (works without formal titles that are conventionally known by their first few words take sentence-case not title-case).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:25, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Section merge from Cumbric
Cumbric should merge to this article (to the extent the chart there might contain anything missing in this more specific page). It is duplicative of the material here and inappropriate in huge chart form in that article. All that's needed there is a general summary and the textual explanation of the theory that the YTT counting system derives from the Cumbric Brittonic language. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:41, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * What would be the proposed title? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:53, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
 * No title change (other than see RM above). This is a call to merge redundant tabular material about yan tan tethera out of the article on a language and into the article on yan tan tethera, then leave behind at the language article only a WP:SUMMARY bit with a cross-reference to this main article.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:27, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Follow-up: I'm not clear whether this merge has already been carried out or not, but the section on counting systems at Cumbric is integral to that article, and a chart of dialect words isn't unusual for a language article. So that seems fine as it is. The only overlap between the table there and the ones here are for Westmorland and Eskdale, and they don't match, so it's anybody's guess which is definitive. Moonraker12 (talk) 22:58, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Systems by region
Are the tables in this section in any particular order? They don’t seem to be aligned geographically or by vocabulary. I've split the 'Lincolnshire, Yorkshire, Derbyshire, County Durham and Lancashire' section into something more manageable, but I'm at a loss after that. Anybody know? Moonraker12 (talk) 23:03, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * could maybe do some maps, one for each number, showing where the different versions are used and how they relate geographically. Bodrugan (talk) 10:11, 29 July 2022 (UTC)