Talk:Yazdânism/Archive 1

untitled comments
..Is this different to Yazidism? --K a s h Talk 20:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yazidi are one of the Yazdâni groups, but not all Yazdâni are Yazidi. Ventifax 20:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, interesting. --K a s h Talk 20:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Name
The name Yazdânism is derived from Yazdân, meaning God or angel in Kurdish, i guess it is the same in persian, but since we are talking about a kurdish religion it is more natural in this article to write that Yazdân is a Kurdish word, as it is to write that its a persian word if this was a persian related article.
 * Fair enough. Ventifax 01:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Can we really distinguish the Kurds and the Persians before Islam? We know that the designation of Persian and Medes were the Assyrian desgination of Parsuash (valley people) and Umman Mada (the mountain people). According to most historians of the ancient world the Persians and the Medes spoke the same language, had similar religions. Furthermore Yazdan means god in modern Iranian languages such as Persian and Kurdish, but its original meaning is angel. The use of Yazdani as opposed to Mazdaism, which is the correct term, is merely to try to fashion a non-Aryan identity for the Kurds to seperate them from the Lur, Persian, Gilak and Baloch, and is motivated by politics not the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.138.137.228 (talk • contribs)


 * Yes, kurds were distinguished from the persians. However some historians did simplify the realtions by calling all iranian peoples persian. Yazdani and Mazdaism are different religions and do not refer to the same, they are however closely related. The "non-aryan" identity mentioned above motivated by politics and not truth is a misconception. The kurds are decendants only partially from Aryans, but also to other non-aryan indo-european tribes like the Hurrians. It has also been proven that the Kurds are more related to for example Armenians, than they are to the Persians.

EZIDI
I deleted that section after deciding iot was unsalvagable. It was written from a Muslim POV and was often incoherent. Zazaban 02:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Alevi vs Alawi
Alevi is a Turkish word, Alawi I think is Arabic. Two religious groups are referred to: (1) the Turkish group associated with Bekhtavi (2) the Syrian group nowadays associated with the ruling elite. This article and all associated with it should be referring to (2) as a constituent religion of the cult of angels. This article is Alawism. They presently refer to (1) - the article Alevi. This causes more confusion.

The theory that these three religions are derived from the Cult of Angels seems very hypothetical and is derived from one web site and its single source. DavidCh0 09:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

There are three groups that use (a form of) the name Alevi. "Modern Alevi theology has been profoundly influenced by Humanism and Universalism. Thus, while many of the older generation view Alevism as a religious belief, many of the younger generation prefer to term it a philosophy, some even making connections with Marxism. Others conceive of Alevism primarily as a subculture or ethnic identity. Alevi communities today generally support secularism after the Kemalist model, partly out of mistrust of majoritarian religiosity" -- Ibrahim4048 20:15, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * First group is the Alawi group from Syria and Turkey (Hatay region). Basically they are a subgroup of Shia islam, they speak Arabic and are followers of Ali. There is little difference between them and the Shia muslims or even the Sunni muslims (except that Sunnis do not recognize the 12 imams)
 * Second group is the Bektashi order from Turkey,Albania and Macedonia. They are followers of Haci Bektas Veli and are mostly from Turkish and Balkan origin (Janissaries). The Bektashi order is a subgroup of Alevism and was at one time very influential in the Ottoman Empire as it was favored by the Janissary Corps. The main difference between Bektashis and Alevis is that Bektashis were from the cities and Alevis were rural. Bektashis were involved with the state and were influential in the Ottoman army while Alevis consisted of numerous smaller groups formed of villages and tribes. Bektashis were uniform while Alevis had different customs and beliefs in every region. Later on when the Bektashi order was banned from Turkey by Ataturk they sort of merged with the rest of the Alevis. Now both Bektashis and Alevis use the name Alevi and Alevi/Bektashi.
 * Third group is the Alevi group. The Alevi group is like an umbrella group that consist of Turkish,Azeri,Turkmen,Kurdish,Zaza and Arabic adherents. Alevism is a heterodox syncretic religion and has adopted many features of other religions and beliefs. The Turkish adherents of Alevism were originally Turkic nomads from Central Asia that had shaman beliefs. When they conquered Persia they converted to shia islam and for them Alevism is a mix of shaman beliefs and islam. The Kurds and Zazas were originally Yezidis and Zoroastrians and when they were converted to islam many of the old Yezidi and Zoroastrian customs and beliefs were incorporated. Alevism is not a single religion/belief that consists of a single type/race of adherents but a mix of Shia Islam with ancient Shaman, Yezidi, Zoroastrian and other beliefs. Alevism still evolves and means something different to every different generation as you can see in this quote from the Wikipedia Alevism page.

Yazdanism? (moved from Talk:Ahl-e Haqq)
(I have moved the following discussion from Talk:Ahl-e Haqq to this page, as it seems to have more to do with the Yazdânism article. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC))

Besides the book of Mehrdad Izady (Kurds - A Concise Handbook), I have never even HEARD of Yazdanism. Even in this book, there are not even ONE written source about Yazdanism. This is pure fabrication, and has no scientific value. I will go so far, to say that I think the topic about Yazdanizm should either be deleted, or strongly edited to bring it clearly out that there are no scientific source behind the theory of Yazdanism.

Or else, many people will become brainwashed by conspiration theory like propaganda..

(Xizilbash (talk) 22:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC))


 * I must admit I'm confused. Is Yazdanism even mentioned in [ the Ahl-e Haqq article ] ? (Or perhaps you already removed it.)  Did you mean to instead leave a comment at Talk:Yazdânism? -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 22:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There is a topic named "Yazdanism", where it says that Alevism, Yarsanism and Yezidism have derived from this so called "religion":
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazdanism


 * This should be totally edited, if not deleted. The topic refers to "Alevis" and "Yarsanis", and the only source that's given, is the book I've mentioned. (Xizilbash (talk) 08:53, 23 May 2008 (UTC))


 * In that case, you may wish to also post these comments at Talk:Yazdânism. I have very little familiarity had never heard of Yazdanism myself (although that, in itself, isn't a reason to delete a topic). Are you saying that the Mehrdad Izady book doesn't actually mention Yazdanism, or that it doesn't cite sources itself?  I notice there is a second reference in that article, I followed the link and found there is contact information for its author .  Again, however, if you have concerns about the Yazdânism article then your comments are probably better suited for Talk:Yazdânism (If no one responds you might also try, for example, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Kurdistan). -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 10:52, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I have made some changes to the article about Yazdanism. The problem with Izady's book that it doesn't contain any references towards sources that could support his theory. There aren't even a single written source that could indicate that Yazdanism has ever existed. His theory is made on the background of certain similarities between Alevism, Ahl-e Haqq and Yezidism, even though the Yezidis differs in many ways from Alevism and Yarsanism and even though Alevism and Ahl-e Haqq has much much stronger similarities to heterodox sects of shiism, like Ismailism, Oveyssi, Bektashi etc. It is also notable, that the part of Yezidism that shares similarities with Alevism and Ahl-e Haqq, is the Sufi and heterodox islamic elements of the religion. If you look at Yezidi written sources on the net (e.g. Mishefa Resh), you can see it for yourself.(Xizilbash (talk) 13:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC))

(unindent) I have left a comment regarding this article at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Kurdistan. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Kurds faith before islam
It says here that Yazdanism have 3 subgroups, Alevism, Yarzanism and Yezidism. Yarsanism and Alevism were both Yezidism but they took in islamic stuff (not sure, but they have islamic stuffs)

Then how could the Kurds original religion be "Yazdanism" since Yazdanism doesnt exists as a religon, it is only used to describe a group of religions. And the Kurds cannot be Yarsans or Alevis before islam (if those religions are some islamic). Then it means the Kurds were Yezidis (this is widely-known). Im changing to "Kurds old religion was Yezidism". --83.253.53.0 (talk) 17:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


 * According to the theory Yazdanism was a religion before its fragmentation during the middleages. In modern times the term however is a name for the three fragmented religions: Yarí (yarsanism), Alevism ande Yezidism. After islam came in contact with the kurdish religions they did adopt some islamic tenets, this also includes Yezidism whose fundamental theology has been most effected by islam of the three. The kurds were not yezidis before islam, as yezidism had not yet come into existence, they were Yazdani. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.208.209.7 (talk) 21:36, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Word jumble in the intro
The intro says that the adherents of the different types of Yazdânism "distance themselves from Twelver-Shia-Muslim-Tariqat of the Anatolian Turkish-Qizilbash-Alevi-Bektashis[...]"

What!?

Someone needs to re-write that. Even if one knows what all the terms in that word soup means, it still looks ugly and confusing as all get out for the novice reader.

69.204.91.53 (talk) 17:50, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

I have added a refimprove tag
Seeing as there's quite a lot of material in the article that doesn't seem to be backed up any sources. Examples include: "The Yazdâni faiths were the primary religion of the inhabitants of the Zagros Mountains, including Kurds, until their progressive Islamization in the 10th century.", "The town of Ilkhichi (İlxıçı), which is located 87 km south west of Tabriz is almost entirely populated by Yâresânis." and "The adherents of Chinarism/Ishikism (Ishik Alevism), Yârsânism and Yazidism are estimated to constitute about one-third of the Kurds.". Best, --Spivorg (talk) 10:19, 13 March 2014 (UTC)