Talk:Yazmeen Ryan

Draft
I think I understand what happened here now... I created this article today. Seany91 moved it to draft with the edit summary "toosoon." I didn't notice that, but I did think that I had somehow created a draft, not an article. So I moved to article space.

On one hand, this was not originally intended as a revert of Seany91. I just didn't realize what had happened - I thought I'd screwed up. On the other hand, I do disagree with Seany91. Ryan is now on the roster of a first division team in a fully professional league, and thus meets notability requirements for soccer players - notwithstanding the coverage I've cited.

So I'm going to keep this here. Thanks! Moishe Rosenbaum (talk) 22:31, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:NFOOTY before creating soccer player articles. Draftees are not signed, so your assertion that Ryan "is now on the roster..." is incorrect. Furthermore, soccer player notability is not based on being on a roster but on actually playing. Seany91 (talk) 08:21, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, well, fair enough on NFOOTY - I read it years ago, but (a) you're right that she's not signed, and (b) you're also right that the guideline says "played in" not just on the roster of. Okay.  As I asserted, I do expect she would easily survive AFD due to the significant coverage in multiple independent sources - see all the citations from sports media outlets that specifically discuss her.  She meets GNG.  Nevertheless, nothing harmed by giving it a few months and putting it in mainspace then, I suppose.Moishe Rosenbaum (talk) 16:50, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Pruning
Hey, Seany91, and anyone else out there... I'd really love some further discussion about the notability of Yazmeen Ryan, and about the scope of this article. I'm more than willing to listen to your points about NFOOTY, as I indicated above, even if I disagree about her meeting GNG. What concerns me more are your edits and edsum that I just read... "WP is not for copying information from other sources?" Perhaps you didn't intend it, but that sounds like you're suggesting plagiarism or close paraphrasing, which, um, didn't happen. WP is for summarizing what independent reliable sources say. That's what the article did in its previous state.

I've spent some significant time pruning sports biographies of truly trivial information, such as "Lamar Jackson is the NFL career leader in touchdown passes to tight ends in night games before which he ate a banana." I do respect and appreciate efforts to include facts not fluff. But that's not the sort of thing I see in the Ryan article - I see a biography that uses the available reliable sources to describe her career thus far. I see equivalent coverage to what wp provides for NFL or NBA draftees.

Seany91 and others, I'd love to engage here about what's relevant to Ryan's biography... and I'd appreciate an assumption that I do in fact know my way around wp a bit, even if I ain't perfect. :-) I'd like you to address my assertion that Ryan meets the general notability guidelines. I'd like you to address the scope of the article - I'm listening, I'm open to your view, but right now I don't see a rationale for removing the details about the Thorns views or Ryan in the draft, for removing the summary of her college career, for removing the fact that she won a championship in high school.  These are bog-standard items in sports biographies.Moishe Rosenbaum (talk) 17:15, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
 * WP:FOOTY has well-established conventions for player articles here, which you completely ignored. Almost everything you wrote in narrative were simply info that should've been in the player infobox or the honors/awards section. Also, returning it to draft space was not simply about notability; what you published was an unedited draft that requires substantial clean-up based on WP:MOS. Seany91 (talk) 17:53, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Move back to article space
Okay, this has been buggin' me for a few days. This athlete meets GNG - significant coverage in reliable sources. Since we're quoting blue text, let's summon WP:DRAFTIFY, which says among other things: "Other editors (including the author of the page) have a right to object to moving the page. If an editor raises an objection, move the page back to mainspace and if it is not notable list at AfD." I'm raising an objection. I'd be surprised if this didn't survive AFD. I do understand the argument about Ryan not meeting NFOOTY just quite yet, but GNG supersedes subject-specific notability guidelines. I'm happy to substantiate my claim at AFD if necessary.

As for the state of the article - while I personally prefer prose to infoboxen, I am not going to engage in infobox wars. :-) The infobox is quite good looking, and summarizes clearly the information about her college career.  I'll add in the note about the Thorns trading up to draft her - that's a significant story about her transition from the amateur to the professional ranks in the crazy American sports environment.  But otherwise, I see what others are trying to accomplish, and I appreciate the improvement.Moishe Rosenbaum (talk) 00:45, 20 January 2021 (UTC)