Talk:Yehuda Hiss

POV
The article is POV problematic because the entire article is focused on one negative event of his lifetime. A event being pushed by conspiracy theorisits and antisemitics. For this reason it's also a wp:blp1e, the basis for the notability tag. Please don't remove the tags until the issue is resolved and please bear in mind WP:BLP before putting together attack pieces.-- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 13:57, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Who nare you calling "antisemitics" [sic]? Arutz Sheva? Jonathan Cook? (Please be aware that BLP applies to talk pages too). The article is still being developed. I don't see one event being discussed here, but many. Could you please be more specific about what you would like to see happen here to address your concerns? Or are you trying to advocate for its deletion? And by the way, the notability tag is overkill. There are tonnes of sources discussing Yehuda Hiss (non-controversial ones too). He is a public figure, not a private one, and an article is fully warranted.  T i a m u t talk 14:36, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Those pushing the validity of this organ harvesting hoax are generally considered to be conspiracy theorists or antisemites. Full stop. Your concern about WP:BLP is very ironic considering your the primary author of this article in which the only non-negative information contained in the article is that he was born. Kindy replace the tags as to notify other editors of this problem, fix it yourself, or allow for others to fix without reverting. -- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 02:26, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, instead of relying on your opinion, shall we take a look at the sources cited?


 * 1) ^ Cole, Leonard A. (2007). Terror: how Israel has coped and what America can learn. Indiana University Press. ISBN 0253349184, 9780253349187, p. 99.
 * 2) ^ Ynet reporters (January 31, 2006). "Haredim ransack Forensics Institute". BMJ. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3208824,00.html. Retrieved 2009-09-05.
 * 3) ^ Judy Siegel-Itzkovich (January 20, 2001). "Sale of organs" to be investigated. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1173179.
 * 4) ^ Judy Siegel (December 28, 2000). "Foreign experts to inspect Abu Kabir forensic institute". Jerusalem Post. http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-38791183.html. Retrieved 2009-09-05.
 * 5) ^ Mary Barrett (April 1990). Autopsies and Executions. Washington Report on Middle East Affairs (WRMEA). p. p. 21. http://www.wrmea.org/component/content/article/126-1990-april/1189-autopsies-and-executions.html.
 * 6) ^ "Terrorism and Medicine Program: Counter-Terrorism Studies Professional Certificate" (PDF). The Institute for Counter-Terrorism at IDC Herzliya. http://www.terrormedicine.org/index_files/ICT210207.pdf. Retrieved 2009-10-01.
 * 7) ^ "Age-related basement membrane thickening of the vocal cords in sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS)". The Laryngoscope 104 (7): pp. 865 - 868. January 2009. http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121611381/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0.
 * 8) ^ a b c d e f g h i j k "Infamous Chief Pathologist to Once Again Evade Punishment". Arutz Sheva. 26 May 2005. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/90518.
 * 9) ^ a b Jonathan Rosenblum (October 17, 2000). "Rosenblum's Columns:# Presumed guilty". Jewish Media Resources (Original in The Jerusalem Post. http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/178/presumed-guilty. Retrieved 2009-10-02.
 * 10) ^ a b c "Israeli Pathologist Faces Grisly Task After the Bombings". February 24, 2004. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/24/world/israeli-pathologist-faces-grisly-task-after-the-bombings.html?n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/Subjects/V/Violence&pagewanted=all. Retrieved 2009-10-02. New York Times
 * 11) ^ Judy Siegel-Itzkovich (January 20, 2001). "News roundup: "Sale of organs" to be investigated". BMJ. Abridged (Jerusalem) 322 (128). http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abridged/322/7279/128/d.
 * 12) ^ "Soldier's Family File Suit Against Dr. Yehuda Hiss". Arutz Sheva. 11 November 2001. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/12699.
 * 13) ^ a b c Rebecca Dube (August 26, 2009, issue of September 04, 2009). "Illicit Body-Part Sales Present Widespread Problem". Forward. http://www.forward.com/articles/112915/. Retrieved 2009-09-05.
 * 14) ^ Haaretz Staff (May 19, 2003). "British bomber's body identified". Haaretz. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=294817&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y. Retrieved 2009-10-02.
 * 15) ^ a b c d Jonathan Cook (September 3-9, 2009; Issue No. 963). "But did it happen?". Al-Ahram. http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2009/963/op2.htm.
 * 16) ^ Ynet reporters (January 31, 2006). "Haredim ransack Forensics Institute". YNET. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3208824,00.html. Retrieved 2009-10-01.


 * So which sources are "antisemitics" and "conspiracy theorists"?  T i a m u t talk 02:45, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Not sure what this list is doing here. Do any of these sources discuss the current Aftonblatt hoax?-- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 03:18, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Is your problem only with the connection to the Aftonbladet-Israel controversy? That connection is made at present by Jonathan Cook.  T i a m u t talk 03:30, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Arutz Sheva being used in a WP:BLP attack peice
I noticed Arutz Sheva being used in gusto (12 times) for this attack piece of a living person. Can they be used for all WP:BLP's or is this case an exception?-- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 03:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I didn't introduce the Arutz Sheva piece and can find substitutes for the information if it is problem. After Jaakobou convinced us to use it at Land Day, I thought if it could be used there, it could here. If I am mistaken, like I said, I'll find alt refs now.  T i a m u t talk 03:29, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Id rather not use that source anywhere on Wikipedia. And Jaak didnt convince anybody as far as I can tell, only persisted to the point others no longer wanted to deal with it.  nableezy  - 16:08, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'll work hard to find substitutes. The problem is that many of the other articles lack the detail available in the Arutz Sheva cites. While I don't think they are a reliable source for Palestinian commemorative holidays, I thought as an Israeli newspaper, they would be an okay source for news on Israeli notables.  T i a m u t talk 16:31, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Removing cites to Arutz Sheva

 * "Investigations revealed that Hiss had illegally stolen organs, bones and other tissues from at least 125 dead bodies, against the expressed wishes of family, and had sold many of the organs he removed to medicial institutions and universities."
 * This will now be cited only to Jonathan Cook
 * "He is also accused of providing fallacious "expert testimony" in court cases regarding autopsies with which he had not been involved."
 * This will be removed for now.
 * "In 1997, Hiss released the results of a DNA test which he claimed disproved that a Yemenite woman's daughter was abducted by the state and put up for adoption. The woman, Margalit Omeisi, filed a police complaint. Hiss's findings were later disproven and it was shown that the woman was related to the lady she thought was her daughter. Hiss was also involved with the postmortem of Yitzhak Rabin and in 1999 was accused of erroneously contradicting authoritative findings about Rabin's injuries."
 * This will be removed for now. Even though Rosenblum also discusses it in the Jerusalem Post, he doesn't give the same detail.
 * "In November 2001, the parents of an Israeli Defence Force soldier who died in training filed a petition with the Israeli High Court of Justice calling for Hiss to be suspended as chief pathologist and for criminal charges to be laid against him for authorizing the use of their son's body in medical experiments without their consent. The parents had filed a complaint with IDF after their son's body had been taken to the institute in 1997."
 * This is from the other Arutz Sheva article. I have no replacement for it, so it is also to be removed.
 * "In July 2002, Hiss was under investigation for numerous charges, including including the removal of organs from 81 deceased persons without familial consent. A petition by the Movement for Quality in Government (MQG) demanding Hiss be suspended from his positions at the Institute was denied by Israel's High Court."
 * From the first Arutz Sheva source, also removed.
 * "Arutz Sheva reported in 2005 that according to evidence submitted in prior investigations, Hiss had a "museum of skulls" at the institute that included the skulls of IDF soldiers who had been shot in the head."
 * Removed. Couldn't find another source for this "museum of skulls" claim.
 * "Hiss ceased being the director of the institute in 2005 when allegations of a trade in organs resurfaced. After Hiss admitted to having removed parts from 125 bodies without authorisation, and following a plea bargain with the State of Israel, Elyakim Rubinstein, Israel's former attorney-general, decided not to press criminal charges."
 * This will only be sourced to Cook now, and Rubinstein will not be mentioned since only Artuz Sheva named him.
 * "Rubinstein justified the decision by stating, "there is no suspicion of corruption or profiteering on the part of Prof. Hiss, whose only interest was the advancement of medical research." The decision not to indict Hiss aroused considerable controversy and the MQG requested that Rubinstein reconsider. "
 * I've removed this because it was sourced to Arutz Sheva. I would like to reinclude this information however, because it is one of the few exculpatory pieces of information in the article. Hiss has been a source of considerable controversy and its hard to find positive coverage of him.  T i a m u t talk 16:59, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Weird justification to remove sourced factual information because of a presumed 'one-sided' article. If Arutz7 is exposing information that other media is suppressing, why should that be withled? Arutz 7 is an accredited member of the Israeli press/media requiring it to journalistic standards. Granted that Arutz7 centralizes on nationalist and religious issues, does not make it less of a RS. Unless you can show that Arutz 7 is lying or violating RS, then blanket accusations of the organization should be avoided. --Shuki (talk) 19:43, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

this may be a juridical decission, but he entered a plea, i don't think justice has the right to affect the informations that support this plea. Tiamut, i think the mistake you make is to want to see it in a 'positive' light, (he did it to palestines and israeli equal, or he is/was (it might appear to me of certain side) a respected (dr?) pathologist. However the opposite can also be true, it does not appear from the article he did not trade in organs, it also does not consistently implicate he took to israeli and palestine corpses with exact similar disregard, and last but not least you will never be able to proof that victims are not amassed for recycling. So i think it suits nicer to keep it ambiguous. anyhow, what a lousy idea to put it on the frontpage, i wasn't really waiting for this kind of detail. 16:41, 12 October 2009 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.132.171.225 (talk)

So if I could find other sources that back up the claims we would be ok with re-including the information? Sol Goldstone (talk) 04:55, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I think I'll reintroduce them in fact, sourced information to an accredited news agency is fine. If you have more sources, the more the merrier. Some people just don't like certain media that does not suit their POV. --Shuki (talk) 13:08, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * That is not why people oppose using Arutz Sheva and you know that. It is a poor source that does not have a reputation for fact checking. It should not be used in a BLP which requires high quality sources.  nableezy  - 18:59, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm willing to say that is a big lie. Please prove this 'reputation'. --Shuki (talk) 20:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Would you like a repeat, only this time I ask for a block? If not, kindly reword your comment. You are asking me to prove a lack of a solid reputation?  nableezy  - 21:21, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

These sources together support the claim in the Yemeni DNA tests. Haaretz Jweekly Jpost Archive

I'll add more as I find them. Sol Goldstone (talk) 06:53, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Here's a JPost article verifying the case of Ze'ev Buzgallo, the soldier who's family sued Hiss to have him removed from his post for using his body in medical experiments without permission Ze'ev Buzgallo

About the 2002 investigations, the archived overview is here 2002 and the full text of the article is here 2002 full article (starts about halfway down) The only claim I can't verify from Arutz Sheva is the "museum of skulls". They are looking like a pretty reliable source to me, most everything checks out from old JPost articles. They may or may not be a good source, I have no idea, but they are correct about most of this.

There is also a lot more material on Yehuda Hiss out there. Sol Goldstone (talk) 06:26, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Then use the JPost and Haaretz articles. Problem solved.  nableezy  - 15:27, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * There is nothing wrong with including Arutz7 sources. Just because Nableezy does not like it, does not make it an issue. Until you prove the slander what you claim, there is no retraction. --Shuki (talk) 17:46, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I have not slandered anything. You are asking me to prove something does not exist. That isnt how it works. Arutz7 is a poor source, and I am not the only person who thinks that. I will let slide your accusation once more, but if you ever again accuse me of lying I will be asking that you be either blocked or topic banned.  nableezy  - 18:14, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Maybe they are a good source, maybe they aren't, I have no idea. But in this case it looks like almost everything they've said can be backed up from other sources so wouldn't you be ok in either using Arutz or Jpost and Haaretz in any combination? Sol Goldstone (talk) 18:35, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Just use the other sources, whats the problem with that? I am not ok with using Arutz Sheva in a BLP, full stop.  nableezy  - 19:12, 11 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Nableezy thinks he owns this page. As if he decides what can be inserted and what not. INN is fine, until he can take it to noticeboard and get consensus that it isn't. Anyone can use INN / Arutz7 if they want. No one needs to tolerate this bullying. --Shuki (talk) 19:09, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You can say these things if it makes you happy, no matter how stupid it makes you look. I havent made any edits to the page so to say that I think I own the page is breathtakingly, mind-numbingly inane. Sources are not de-facto reliable and the RS/N archives that we do have on Arutz Sheva dont show any consensus for it being a reliable source. As such, and because this is a BLP, I will remove cites to such a poor source. And as it is a BLP, you need consensus to reinsert such sources.  nableezy  - 20:34, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Another classic 'I know you are but what am I' argument from you. You know that your credibility is pretty low these days, getting another 'compounded' topic-ban in your second in a row 'Calling the kettle black' AE. I think you should instead be refraining from making controversial edits and instead show that you can be a good contributor to the project. If you haven't made any edits here, then why are you watching this page and what do you care about Hiss? Or are you just hounding someone? --Shuki (talk) 21:59, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Why do you continue to show a lack of basic knowledge of the things that you write about? I edited this talk page on the October 9 2009. You had never made an edit to either the talk page or the article prior to that .I also have not filed an AE thread. You continue to make asinine accusations. Fortunately, you dont have any credibility to lose so feel free to continue to make such comments.  nableezy  - 22:31, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You seem to be confused. You jjust wrote I havent made any edits to the page so to say that I think I own the page is breathtakingly, mind-numbingly inane. Decide for yourself if you made any edits and what your cover story is. --Shuki (talk) 23:17, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not confused, but to help you clear up your self-evident confusion, "the page" is a reference to the actual article. I commented on this talk page October 2009. But I have not edited the article. It isnt a "story", it is easily proven fact.  nableezy  - 23:22, 15 August 2010 (UTC)