Talk:Yellow River Map/Archive 1

Great start
Thank you for starting this Dcattell, I had meant to for the longest time but never had a diagram.—Machine Elf 1735  07:12, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've been thinking why no Yellow River Map article myself for a while? Please add/modify any material that you have been contemplating. I really have no special plans for the article, except maybe a few lines about mythology. And, maybe check zh.wikipedia's article to see what the Chinese version says.Dcattell (talk) 16:33, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Bagua edits and He Bo
Actually I see my edit summary was off the mark in that He Bo is at least sometimes credited with helping Fu Xi. I wonder if Fu Xi sought He Bo's aid mystically? All in all, I think you've actually summed it up nicely when you say "Certain traditions suppose that the Yellow River Map and the Luo River Writing reveal all of these things to one who knows how to read them."—Machine Elf 1735  19:11, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Traditional/simplified ordering
I noticed today that the default ordering for this page had been set by Template:Zh/format/Yellow_River_Map being created. This mechanism is no longer used for setting the ordering: the the template has now been rewritten to use a module and the module keeps track of the pages with traditional first - see the documentation at Template:Zh.

I did look at adding Yellow River Map to its list of pages but noticed it would have no effect. The use of Template:Zh on this page with both traditional and simplified Chinese was only showing one instance of Chinese as they are the same; I simplified it to make this clearer, and am removing the talk page notice with this edit. If in future the default order needs overriding please see the instructions at Template:Zh.-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 00:29, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Cardinal directions
In the Yellow River Map section, the even number table seems to have north and south reversed... but it's not clear why odd and even would need to be in separate tables. Wouldn't south normally be at the top?—Machine Elf 1735  03:35, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I mostly stick to poetry, and contextually related mythology and history. The tables are from the Chinese Wikipedia linked at the bottom of this article. I don't have a great understanding of this somewhat esoteric area, but the gist of it seems to be that the 2 different versions with their directions are compared with each other when doing a fengshui analysis, in the 2 different directional orders are mapped to an area, and the differing results compared. I can't at this point really back it up with references, but it looks like the apparent reversal of directional order compared to a map of the earth ("face-up" and looking down at it, looking down, is the same as when a skymap is used in astronomy, and the viewer is looking up, holding the map ("face-down") above their head and looking up and with the features in the sky visible, in the background, up above. So, yes Chinese maps conventionally use south at top, but the plane of the ecliptic runs basically east-west, and thus do the apparent motion of the stars and planets. In this case, if a map of what's above were to be compared with a map of what's below, it would make sense to keep east and west constant, and in the case of the map to be held above the head and viewed, then north and south would be reversed (somewhat like a mirror). One of the problems with understanding the Chinese is that it doesn't have the same distinction between vernacular terms and technical vocabulary as is the case of English, that this is an area in which I am not well read in, and that many of the sources which I have seen are often popular and non-academic; and tend to throw around undefined terms such as "heaven" (or "Heaven, Tian, 天), which could be "Heaven" where the deities dwell, the astronomical phenomenon of the "sky", or even the proper name of the deity "Tian" ("Heaven"). I get even more confused when the discussion starts to move on to the "order" of "Former Heaven", "Later Heaven", and so on. I'll see if I can find some better sources of information. Dcattell (talk) 16:28, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Now I understand, thank you kindly for explaining.—Machine Elf 1735  04:44, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Era style
I noticed the WP:ERA style should standardize on BC or BCE. User:Dcattell, do you have a preference?—Machine Elf 1735  04:46, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I tend sometimes to be overly influenced by whatever current source I am using, which makes me tend to use both. BCE seems to have greater currency with newer academic or other sources which wish to avoid a perceived Christian bias ("Before Common Era" versus "Before Christ"). I am comfortable with either, and if you want to work on the article, than I won't care which you use. My impression is that BCE is technically more of a neutral term, and would be better for Wikipedia, except that many people have no idea what "BCE" refers to, but are familiar with "BC". Best,Dcattell (talk) 15:39, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Definition
The lede should contain some kind of definition ("an ancient Chinese concept" is too broad to count as one) so that the reader can get a basic idea about the subject from it. Currently, you have to read the whole article like a detective story, where the basic essence of the subject is gradually unveiled. The lede should describe, preferably in one sentence, what the "Yellow River Map" basically is in terms of nature and function (and what its relation to an actual map of the Huanghe, as implied by the name, is). --91.148.130.233 (talk) 15:45, 24 July 2014 (UTC)