Talk:Yokohama Kaidashi Kikō

Thoughts
Just a few thoughts I had when reading this --- I thought I would put them up for discussion rather than simply editing them, in case there are some objections.

1) Do we really need to list the title of manga (eg Aa! Megami-sama!) twice? I would suggest using one title, and leaving the wikilink to explain things futher.

2) Unlike many other shonen manga series... I always thought Afternoon, and YKK for that matter, was a seinen publication. As such, this whole paragraph is irrelivant.

3) Would it not be more concise to use "android" rather than "humanoid robot"?

4) YKK is unusual in that it can be said to have almost no plot... I feel this is an exageration. There is little in the way of an overall plot, and there is little drama, but each chapter has its own plot.  Wheter this be Alpha making coffee, or Takahiro leaving home to become a pilot, there is no less plot in a chapter than in a scene (of the same length) from a play.  These are much simpler, however, than we are used to.  The noticeable lack of dialogue also gives a feeling of little plot, but works to make the illustrations more significant: we need to interpret the imagery to understand the plot.  Perhaps I am the one going too far here, but that is just how I feel.

5) Alpha learns to navigate the human world around her. I feel "grows up" or "matures" would be more appropriate.  She has no difficulty with the human world right from the start, but she clearly develops from an older child (tween?) to a teenager, and more recently to an adult.  Her mental growth is most evident in her attitudes and emotions, rather than in her actions, though a notable exception can be found when she decided to travel to other countries.

As a smaller point, does anyone know if it is possible to get any good quality, colour pictures of the YKK cast to include in the character section? A portrait would be enough to make this more appealing to look at, but I only have colour pictures of Alpha and Kokone, not includng the manga covers. Other images would be good too: perhaps a manga cover at the top, and a snapshot from the OVAs in the OVA section.

I intend to help in building this article, but I wanted to clarify those points first, so I do not change something that I should not have. I feel I should be able to flesh out the OVA section safely enough, but it is the early part which is most important.

Actually, speaking of important, is there any relevance to including the ISBNs of the volumes published thus far? It seem rather pointless to me. Elric of Grans 01:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed with point 1, and I've made the edit. I'll work on some of the still-revelent ones, like 4, soon. —Quasirandom 17:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * And that's the others: 2 had already been addressed, did 3, rewrote 4 as part of striving for NPOV. I left the wording of 5 for the moment, as while she does mature, she also learns interpersonal relationships (for lack of a better phrase), so it seems appropriate. Next task: revise/expand the chracter descriptions, including thumbnail portraits as I go. —Quasirandom 20:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Pardon, but due to the request for color portraits we're now left with a page that has nothing but colored pictures. This is not representative of the manga. I strongly feel one of the pictures should be replaced with a black and white panel. Otherwise readers can't really get a feel for the "beautifully spare pen-and-ink drawing style". Editors should also keep this in mind for other manga-related pages. Rabaul (talk) 17:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You've got a really good point there. Hmm. Currently we have ye standard book cover (which will always be color), two logos (colored), a color drawing of Alpha and Kokone I chose to show the androids' hair, a screen cap of Takahiro and Makki from the OVA (of necessity color) I chose to show how the style of the anime is slightly different, the map of the changed work (which happened to be colored). Given the current concern to limit as far as possible fair use images, it would be better to replace than add. The logos are irrelevant here, ditto the map, so it would be replacing the character pictures -- preferably with panels that also should more than one character. Do we want to replace one or both? Or should we go ahead and add a glorious pen-and-ink to the Reception section? We can probably find a good one of Alpha and Kokone listening to Alpha's gekkin -- those are often evocative landscapes, of the sort being talked about.
 * Thoughts? —Quasirandom (talk) 19:14, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * "Spare" describes his style of drawing the characters but I'm not sure if it also applies to his landscape illustrations (ex. chapter 1: The Scent of Steel in the Night, and chapter 66: Persimmon).
 * If you're looking for b&w pics from the manga for character images, you could try these or these.
 * Incidentally, YKK seems to be getting high ratings at several English sites such as Anime News Network and MyAnimeList.net. Do any of you think it's worth citing under Reception and awards? Dakilang epal (talk) 16:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * "Spare" though is a description that can be cited from reviews. And I note that you can draw a lush landscape in a spare art style. As for the ratings, it might be worth it if the fact could be somehow reliably sourced, and at the moment I'm not seeing a way that fits the guidelines. But I am not clever before coffee. —Quasirandom (talk) 17:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Character Page
I think the ヨコハマ買い出し紀行 Character Section is going to be one of the more labor intensive sections of the article since most characters' appearances are spanned across months, yea, even years! I believe Dave from ykk.misago.org will have something for us YKK fans to work with soon.

There is a small YKK dictionary/character list found at http://www.din.or.jp/~ems/ms_jiten.htm. It's in Japanese, unfortunately, but hopefully we can do something better, heheh. - Baltakatei 07:06 GMT

NPOV
Is this an encyclopedia entry or a love letter?
 * This is an encyclopedic entry on a series in a rather rare genre (future, close to cozy catastrophe, with eerieness). It is thorough but more will be added. What made you ask this question?
 * No really, some of the paragraphs are quite POV. -- Philip Nilsson 10:05, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Some? Please be more specific. If it is necessary to extract questions/opinions one sentence at a time this thread will be very, very long.


 * That's not a bad thing :)
 * p 2,6,7,8 - POV
 * p 1,3 - NPOV
 * p 4,5 - Not sure :p
 * Well, sort of, IMO.
 * -- Philip Nilsson 19:34, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Much of the NPOV allegations seem to stem from characterisation of the art and style. Please check the review at http://www.ex.org/2.4/27-yokohama.html (from 1997 I believe) that agrees on that. Moreover a closer look will tell you that the author has won prizes for his style.
 * Characterization is deep and and plot is still meted out in small bits, even after 10 years of continuous monthly publication much is unknown, much also remains unstated. Example: the relation to fighter aircrafts is not yet stated in the manga; it is something the reader has to discover, relating model designation. Another example: what at first readings look like lighting a candle is in reality the user interface for turning on an engine; again not stated, you have to think hard to see it.
 * What your issue with paragraph 8 is I do not know; entire chapters are truly dedicated to seemingly small issues such as brewing coffee.
 * In fact the entire manga is the literary equivalent of a Japanese tea ceremony: slow, meticulous, philosophising, elegant, intriguing, contemplative and much, much more. It is this set of qualities, particularly that the reader has to think and also know a fair bit about Japan and its history, that probably is the reason this Manga remains unpublished in the West.


 * Some things, your examples, can not really be proven unless they are stated by the author.
 * I'll elaborate on what I found POV about the paragraphs,
 * 2 - No problem with the statement about the art, it does look great. However a reference to some award might be in order. engaging characters, that however, is more of a problem.
 * 6 - Well, I'd like all of it to be reworded, a paragraph starting with magic is not a good one.
 * 7 - Um, it's probably okay. Oh, it says interesting, that's not good.
 * 8 - I don't like it, and I can't pinpoint the exact problem.
 * --Philip Nilsson 11:03, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * The author did win a prize for his art, specifically for his work on YKK, ref the Japanese language article on him. Unfortunately my command of Japanese is not sufficient to make a good translation.
 * Engaging characters: that refers to what drives the arch. It is character and character development, not events as such, another contrast to most other stories. The events of the past, cataclysmic as they must have been, are still not explained or even fully stated.
 * Magic: While I didn't write it, this is to me the only word that fits. The closest comparison to the mood is that of Twin Peaks: something big has happened, is partially still going on, everyone seems to know but the reader/viewer is not fully informed. There is a strong atmospheric undercurrent that is hard to quantify and fully explain, thus I feel the use of magic is appropriate.
 * Interesting: It is interesting as opposed to incidental or coincidental. It is also of interest because it is what lies behing parts of the arch of the story: humans grow up, end up looking even older than robots, all while robots look timeless. Again I feel this can be defended.
 * 8: If you cannot pinpoint it then it will be hard to counter. I will however again refer you to the article about the tea ceremony.
 * In summary: YKK is unique in a great many ways and it makes it hard to fully describe it to those who do not know it yet and to that end it words are used that are hard to justify in other contexts yet appropriate here.


 * No matter how true it might be, it is still like a love letter, which means that it is not encyclopedic.
 * --Philip Nilsson 23:14, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC) (off to the UK for the weekend)


 * If truth is not sufficient for an article to be encyclopedic we have some serious pruning in front of us. The example of Leonardo da Vinci below is one. The Beatles is a more modern one. A sufficiently hardline religious fundamentalist will easily dispute their influence. Moreover Wikipedia is a labour of love. Is it time to wipe it out entirely?


 * I like this saying “A Wikipedia entry is a report, not an essay” (WP:NOR). I am not really saying that things should be removed—although some things should be—I am saying that things should be rewritten to conform to the Wikipedia standards. And I am too lazy to do that. For art and things, it is possible to make quotes as the one below work by attributing the saying to some expert. As we all know, everything an expert states is absolute and undeniable fact. —Philip Nilsson 11:40, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * The problem, of course, is that it's difficult to be perfectly encyclopedic about works of art. Art, by it's nature, has a subjective component that subjects like chemistry do not. For example, see this (pretty darn subjective) language from the article on the Mona Lisa:


 * "Leonardo knew the ultimate expression which is the link between love and knowledge. This complex idea, the link between Eros (love) and knowledge, goes all the way back to Plato. The Mona Lisa is expressing love and knowing. She knows you when she looks at you. This means that she must have loved you (desired to know you). She expresses love and knowing at the same time (love is to know)."


 * When I wrote the article, I wanted to include material on why it was a compelling work of art, but I do see your "love letter" point. I'll tone it down a bit.

--dDave 20:04, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Article move
Although "Kikou" is the popular way of writing amongst fans of the series, the correct title should be written "Kik&#333;" in the article and "Kiko" in the article name according to Wikipedia policy. Would moving this article to "Yokohama Kaidashi Kiko" (with a redirect at "Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou" of course) be objectionable?

It seems like a trivial move, but I might be overlooking something. Please comment if you think this move should be undone. JeroenHoek 14:24, 26 May 2005 (UTC)


 * New version of wikim is now in with unicode love, so moved to Yokohama Kaidashi Kikō. --zippedmartin 01:20, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) seems to discourage macrons, so I moved it to the current title. KJ 09:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The discussion (if you follow the link above) on macrons is still undecided. The Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) was written before the new version of the wiki software that allows macrons. That the software didn't support it before seems to be the only real reason why it was discouraged. I suggest moving it back and leaving this page as a redirect. --nihon 10:48, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Remember that "Kikou" is not just a "popular" way, it's acceptable Hepburn romanization too, which has been around for decades. I learned "kikou" style romanization, "kik&#333;" but gets the job done too. But to claim one or the other is more correct seems silly, since they are both approximate transliterations. One favors (Engish) pronunciation, the other favors (Japanese) grammatical rules. The stronger argument would be based on Wikipedia standards.

"Quiet Country Cafe"
This is only the title for the second series of OAVs (though it also appears on the cover of volume 9 of the manga). It is not the official or unofficial English title of the whole series (manga and anime), however. The first OAV has no English title (so the translation of the title would be as "official" as you can get), and the manga has no official English title, either, at least not as of volume 11. --nihon 10:48, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Alpha's last name
There is a good deal of back-and-forth over the Engish Spelling of Alpha's last name. Her name should be Hatsuseno. The confusion seems to stem from a miss-translation in an English scanlation of Volume 1, page 143, when Kokone reads Alpha's name off the mailbox. An error that was admitted to here:

http://ykk.misago.org/Forum?cmd=show&id=560&replies=1

However, in the OAVs and the Drama CD where you can hear the name spoken, it's clearly "Hatsuseno".
 * This is also the spelling used on Kodansha's official page for the manga. —Quasirandom 20:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I have some official character goods that have it spelled "Hasseno", so there still seems to be some confusion. Since the official character goods have nothing to do with the scanlations, they are obviously not the only source of the confusion. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Genre
I don't know what to do with the following:

"Yokohama Kaidashi Kikō (YKK) is noted for its beautifully spare pen and ink drawing style, as well as its calm, meticulously paced stories and engaging characters. Unlike many other shonen manga series, there are no scenes of violence, no overtly sexual graphics, no posturing heroes, and no display of superpowers, in marked contrast to the usual stylistic conventions of its genre."

YKK is not a shonen manga (Afternoon is a seinen magazine, not shonen), nor has the "genre" of it been mentioned before this ("manga" is not a genre, nor is "shonen manga" -- I would be hard pressed to fit it into any particular genre. I tried to rewrite that paragraph but maybe someone else can do better.

Apparently you just deleted it. --User:Zaorish

Cicada?
was there a Cicada in the manga, and if there was, which volume was it in? 24.14.175.0 04:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * There were several kinds of cicada. http://kimoto.cc/ykk/semi.html has some details. --Kjoonlee 17:54, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

What to do with Mysteries?
As it is, this article won't pass a GA review. Notwithstanding the injunction to be bold, I'd like to discuss how to handle this section, because someone might have better ideas than I.

YKK's puzzles are a significant part of reader and critical reactions. A discussion about the sorts of mysteries Ashinano left his readers certainly is in order. But without any citeable sources that people have puzzled over these particular questions, the list as it stands is original research (I ought to know, I've added some). I think we need to rework this into a more general Responses section, with links to reviews of the series, and add citations to questions or discussions thereof (and delete the others).

And that's where I run out of steam -- I've no idea where to find these. I'm an editor who enjoys the series, not a researcher. Can anyone help out here? —Quasirandom 02:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree. This section has always bothered me as it seemed like something that should be on a fan site rather than in the article here. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I've started collecting citations from reviews (sticking most of them in the Lead for now--they'll need to be scattered down), but many more are needed -- and they need reframing with a different introduction. Also, need more reviews (eventually, we might get enough to split out a Reception section). —Quasirandom 17:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

In order to cut down on the number of "citation needed" tags in the themes section, I've edited out the ones that are still missing them. For reference, here are the ones I removed:
 * Are Alpha's recurring dreams of bodily transformation and flight just that, or something more?
 * Why do food plants produce oversized or exceptional yields?
 * What is the origin of Ayase's kamas, a six-legged flying fish that lives out of water? Was it engineered?
 * What is the purpose of the Taapon, and why can it not land?

As citations are found, we can edit these back in. Marshall Stax 09:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Heh. And I tagged 'em because I find those less intrusive than the section cleanup banner. But it's a fair cop -- either way they'd been tagged for a couple months with no results. At least the first one is mentioned elsewhere in the article -- possibly we can work the second into the passage about how much the world has changed. —Quasirandom 14:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Influences and themes

 * 1) Why are male robots so rare?[17]
 * 2) Why is Alpha, unlike other robots, allergic to animal proteins?[18]
 * 3) What are the "water gods", strangely beautiful mushrooms with human faces, that have started growing in the wilds?[19]

Some citations are just references to page numbers in the manga. The citations should be to external sources, where people raise questions about the mysteries. Unless somebody can cite real references, I'll be removing the mysteries section, soon-ish. --Kjoonlee 17:37, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I've added fact tags, so I'll wait a while. --Kjoonlee 15:52, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

"Taapon"
I usually see the name of Director Alpha's ship romanized as "Taapon", but it occurs to me that perhaps "Tarpon" is intended. I note that it has been used as a ship name. Thoughts? Evidence one way or another? —Quasirandom 20:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I really believe it's supposed to be Tarpon but without any guidance, I can't be 100% sure. Marshall Stax 22:49, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I wonder whether the Japanese Wikipedia article has any indication of the intended reading ... —Quasirandom 22:56, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And then I did a little more research. Taapon is the Japanese transliteration of Da Peng which was a giant bird several hundreds of miles long that soared for months at a time. That seems a better fit that Tarpon. Marshall Stax 22:59, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That sounds like something worth clarifying in the article, instead of just "is reminiscent of." —Quasirandom 23:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Gekkin vs. Getsukin
I see the parenthetical note "(called a getsukin in Japanese)" has been added. The word "gekkin" is well attested, for example, in the 1985 edition of the New Harvard Dictionary of Music, where it is described as "The Japanese 'moon-shaped' lute,...", and stated to be a Japanese word. What is the evidence that "getsukin", in the sense of a musical instrument, is anything but a plausable misreading of the kanji and furigana for "gekkin"? It can be hard to tell the difference between a full-sized tsu and a small tsu in furigana. The best evidence would be an entry in a published dictionary, or a statement by a native Japanese speaker who is familiar with traditional Japanese instruments. 192.4.227.243 14:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Since I put that wording in, I should cop to it. That was my attempt at interpretting a comment I found in what's now "Influences and themes," which reads in full: "Alpha's gekkin &lt;!-- **NOT** getsukin! --&gt; guitar" Your suggestion that it's from a misreading of a small tsu indicating a double letter makes more sense. Feel free to change it. —Quasirandom 15:34, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Besides the difficulty in differentiating which "tsu" was used in the furigana, I guess the kanji was also problematic since the 月 in 月琴 is also commonly read as "getsu". 14:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dakilang epal (talk • contribs)

A little bit of reference trivia
Stig Hogset and Northlander are one and the same, so if your review references seem a bit stacked, that's why. No, I'm not changing anything in the review myself, that'd be conflict of interest and original research. Plus he happened to be the person to point me at this anime; any of you with any skill at Google should understand how I know this info. :) -- Miwa * talk * contribs ^_^ 01:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

A Spoiler about Director Alpha
After reading the whole story, it's clear Director Alpha is actually just Alpha herself in the future. The scenes aboard the ship are actually flash-forwards to where Alpha will be in the future. After living happily among the people on earth, she retires to live on the ship watching the last of humanity disappear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.24.177.189 (talk) 07:58, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Doctor Koumiishi's words specifically state that they are different people. Also, Wikipedia is not a forum, sorry. --Kjoonlee 08:39, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed -- it is not at all clear that Director Alpha is Alpha, in no small part because of Sensei's comments about hosting Director Alpha in the past. —Quasirandom (talk) 17:12, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Scooter?
Anyone know what model scooter Alpha drives? I swear I have seen a real world one just like it

Kokone's name
Um, I just noticed that Kodansha's English-language website for the series romanizes her name as Cocone. Pending an actual licensed translation, I think we need to change the spellings here. Or at least note both spellings. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:55, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, that link no longer works. Marshall Stax (talk) 18:22, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well that's annoying. Looks like Kodansha let the domain registration lapse. I'll see if I can track down a replacement, or an archive. —Quasirandom (talk) 20:22, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmph -- Kodansha's replacement English language website no longer covers manga in as much detail, and doesn't include YKK at all. —Quasirandom (talk) 20:09, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Right, here's the archive version, which spells it both Cocone and Kokone. Gee, thanks. —Quasirandom (talk) 23:48, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Reception links
Parked here until they can be used -- feel free to jump in if I don't get to them first:


 * Review by Joanna Draper Carlson at Comics Worth Reading
 * Round table with Noah Berlatsky, Derik A. Badman, Bill Randall & Dirk Deppey part 1, part 2, part 3, part 4, part 5, part 6a, part 6b, extra

(All the above named are experts in the field and so considered reliable sources for these purposes.) Hat tip to KrebMarkt for finding these. —Quasirandom (talk) 16:59, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
 * For accuracy purpose Bill Randall ceased his column "lost in translation" in the Comics Journal after issue #300 of the TCJ in 2009. That's still for 7-8 years writing about manga in one of the most quality publication on Comics.
 * Noah Berlatsky is in the list of TCJ reviewers.
 * Dirk Deppey is running one TCJ Official blog Journalista collecting whatever worth mention review, essay, profile etc... in the comics field. Mentioned as RS in by Comics project. not counting Dirk Deppey tenure as Editor-in-chief of the TCJ.
 * Derik A. Badman is the less caped of the lot. CV. --KrebMarkt 22:43, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Guns

 * Why do both Alpha and Kokone carry guns, Alpha's may not be loaded, but she has a holster and Kokone carries hers in plain sight. With strict gun laws in Japan, why would robots be allowed or need to carry guns openly, especially since violence seems absent from the world.

Hi, I removed the above from the article. I think this is dealt with in the manga.

Potential spoiler ahead:

Alpha does load her guns from time to time, with electrical ammo that will affect both humans and robots. The world is more violent that it looks, since Kokone, as a courier, has been trained to respond to attacks. This is apparent from the time when Maruko jumped on Kokone and she pulled a gun on her, stealthily, at the last moment. Maruko totally understood. --Kjoonlee 17:41, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

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