Talk:Yonsei/move?

Rename this page Yonsei (disambiguation)
Caspian blue has both engineered a novel tactic and a wiki-neologism to describe it -- a "hoax redirect." I avoid conjecture as to the purpose of this novel gambit, but the available data support an arguable claim that a problem exists. This problem deserves closer scrutiny. This dispute would appear to involve a non-standard issues.

History
FIRST, an article about Yonsei, a descriptive term for fourth-generation emigrants/immigrants of Japanese descent in Latin America, North America and elsewhere in the world, attracted Caspian blue's attention. This non-stub article was arbitrarily moved and re-named without discussion or opportunity for comment and consensus discussion:
 * 20:37, 6 November 2008 Caspian blue moved Yonsei to Yonsei (Japanese term): Making a dab page. This is NOT a well-known PRIMARY topic in English unlike "nisei" and "sansei" found in dictionaries and web search.)
 * This user's limited grasp of English usage renders this conclusory argument suspect; but in order to respond effectively to this casually disruptive edit required furhter research. I did invest research time in order to rebut Caspian blue's demonstrably insupportable claim.  However, it is relevant to note that the a priori version of this article included fully developed bibliographic reference citations and in-line citations.  Also, it may be relevant that more than one active editor was in the process of adding to the Yonsei text.  The moved article was arbitrarily re-named Yonsei (Japanese term). A new disambiguation page -- Yonsei -- was created and populated with spurious links.  What might have been nothing more than a misunderstanding is hard to dismiss in the context of the otherwise inexplicable post hoc hoax links:


 * Yonsei may refer to;
 * Yonsei (Japanese term), fourth generation of Japanese immigrants to America and Australia
 * Honorific term for Age in Korean.
 * Yonsei University, a private university in Seoul, South Korea
 * Yonsei Severance Hospital, first modern hospital affiliated with Yonsei University
 * Yonsei Medical Journal, published by Yonsei University College of Medicine.
 * Yonsei Basketball Association, association for Japanese-American Youth Basketball

SECOND, the presumptively necessary disambiguation was edited to eliminate specious links:
 * 01:47, 8 November 2008 Kusunose attempted a disambiguation page cleanup: rm, entry does not exist; rm entry about Korean honorific, a dic def; rm piping; rm entires with no links; single blue link per line)

THIRD, the misnamed Yonsei (Japanese term) was further modified without discussion or opportunity for comment and consensus discussion -- moved again to Yonsei (fourth-generation Nikkei):
 * 06:05, 10 Novemer 2008 DA19 created (redirect from Yonsei (Japanese term): while the origins of Nikkei is Japanese, the North American and Latin American descendants of Japanese immigrants are the primary users of what is a Nikkei term.)

FOURTH, when I attempted to question the contrived redirect -- Yonsei Severance Hospital, then Caspian blue initiated an AfD thread to delete the Yonsei (fourth-generation Nikkei) ... which was formerly Yonsei (Japanese term) and just plain Yonsei before that ....


 * AXIOM/FACT: The requirements of WP:V are minimal.
 * The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth -— that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed.

Proposed solution
PROPOSAL #1 : The article about emigrants/immigrants of Japanese descent should be named Yonsei in the same simple manner as its corollary articles -- Issei (1st generation emigrants/immgirants), Nisei (2nd generation emigrants/immigrants) and Sansei (3rd generation emigrants/immigrants). The original name should be restored as the simplest and best solution to unnecessary problems which flow from a series of unhelpful article moves.

The article's name needs be the subject of reasoned discussion; and a consensus decision needs to be reached in due course.

PROPOSAL #2 : Like Yale (disambiguation), which Caspian blue mentions in the second paragraph of the opening salvo at Articles for deletion/Yonsei (fourth-generation Nikkei), this page can be renamed Yonsei (disambiguation). In fact, this is what could have been done, should have been done in the first place .... Caspian blue's post hoc analysis explains an ante-hoc decision-making process.

Bluntly, Caspian blue deliberately trod in a rough-shod fashion over consensus-building niceties -- see second paragraph. I take grim notice of the mention of "rants" attributable to me. This is an inadvertent admission that Talk:Yonsei (fourth-generation Nikkei) was ignored; and instead, Caspian blue selected a more confrontational attack.

My response: By all means, do read anything and everything I've written, and what seem especially relevant are the prose Caspian blue characterizes as "rants." In the context my "rants" create, the disambiguation is seen as nothing but a contrived gambit, unsupported by research or reference citations.

Questions to be answered
The difficult issues to be addressed are these:
 * 1. What, if anything, could have been done differently at any step of the edit histories which precede this posting?
 * 2. What is the best way to sort this out now?
 * 3. What, if anything, can be done to avert or mitigate similarly needless conflicts in the future.

This is a serious situation which calls for a thoughtful approach.

However, for me, what is not tolerable is anything like the perverse charade which unfolded at Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-11-06 Woo Jang-choon, more specifically in the full discussion thread which unfolded here. --Tenmei (talk) 00:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

____________________
 * The continuation of this thread has been moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation where it becomes accessible to a potentially larger number of contributors and a potentially helpful array of perspectives.

Tenmei, keep it simple and remind no personal attacks

 * This diff would be a summary of Tenmei's LOGICAL behavior

, or Ooperhoofd, this is so typical and repeated tedious (of course, disruptive) behaviors of yours. Did you ever expect that people would sit and read through your lengthy insistence here? Replace your rambling with succinct "DIFFs" and reduce (I too well know of your nature, so just "reduce the personal attack") as Theresa knott (you directly quoted her "bullshit" comment made in August yesterday, so) and many many admins advised(warned) to you. Like Waseda, Yale, Harvard redirect their article, Yonsei University would deserve to have the redirect page but I made the page to go back to this "DAB page. I don't see why the unfamiliar "Japanese term" should have its position here. At best, "Yonsei generation" would be an alternative. Besides, you're very hasty before the AFD even would close. Be calm and "think" reasonable and behave less disruptive, Don't pull my legs here again with your inflammatory and provocative languages. Better have communication skills, less make drama. Looking through the snobbish fallacy list does not make you logical. Good luck with your WP:CANVASSing. P.S I know you've been lurking my contribution and following me as always, but what has to do with the unproceed MED? Be logical.:P--Caspian blue 00:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Personal attacks? Who do you think you're kidding?   Nah. --Tenmei (talk) 00:17, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Primary Topic.
Which page that should be at Yonsei is governed by WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.

In short, if a meaning of Yonsei can be considered as being far more common than any other then that meaning should be selected as the primary topic.

I have not seen any argument that the term Yonsei in English is more often used about fourth generation Japanese immigrants than it is about a Korean university or medical journal. In the absence of such arguments WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is fairly clear that no primary topic should be selected.

Taemyr (talk) 18:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Primary topic and research
Google search
 * 1,480,000 for Yonsei no filter, most entries of the first 10 pages just direct Yonsei University related articles.
 * 468,000 for Yonsei -"Yonsei University" -"Yonsei Univ." -"Yonsei Medical Journal" -Korea -Seoul (still much are related Yonsei University)
 * 16,700 for Yonsei generation -"Med" -"Yonsei Med J" -"Yonsei U" -"Yonsei University" -"Yonsei Univ." -"Yonsei Medical Journal" -Korea -Seoul

Google book
 * 2,750 on Yonsei - No filter
 * 2,790 on Yonsei -sansei -generation -nisei.


 * 2,440 on Yonsei -sansei -generation -nisei -japan


 * 670 on Yonsei generation -Korean
 * 2,700 on Yonsei University

Google Scholar
 * 98,200 for Yonsei No filter
 * 75,000 for Yonsei -sansei -nisei
 * 58,200 for Yonsei -sansei -nisei -generation
 * 179 for Yonsei generation -korea -university -med -seoul -medical
 * 259 on Yonsei generation -"Yonsei Med J" -"Yonsei U" -"Yonsei University" -"Yonsei Univ." -"Yonsei Medical Journal"

Whatever article related to Yosei, the Japanese term, fourth generation is always accompanied with it. The result shows that the primary topic of Yonsei is Yonsei University. So, well, I think we move the dab to Yonsei (disambiguation) and Yonsei redirects to Yonsei University just like Harvard, Yale, Waseda to Harvard University, Yale University, Waseda University.--Caspian blue 18:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Google scholar, and for that matter Google books, should not be considered as good indications in this case since we should expect a bias towards academia in those venues. A more compelling case is Google News;
 * 74 for Yonsei
 * no hits for Yonsei Nikkei
 * 4 hits for Yonsei Japanese, of which casual inspections indicates at least 3 refers to the university.
 * If you do move the dab page, remember to include a hatnote on the Yonsei University. Taemyr (talk) 18:14, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Quo vadis
 * On November 5th, the Yonsei University hatnote was the following:
 * On November 6th, as a result of my edit, the Yonsei University hatnote became the following:
 * For fourth-generation emigrants of Japanese descent, see Yonsei.
 * At that time, I did not perceive this as a controversial edit. My focus was on the extent to which Yonsei and its corollaries -- Issei, Nisei, Sansei and Nikkei, were being re-focused to encompass a broader, wider multi-national cohort beyond Japanese-American yonsei, including
 * Nipo-brasileiro yonsei (Brazil)?
 * Canadian Japonese yonsei/Canadien-japonais yonsei (Canada)?
 * Japonés Peruano yonsei (Peru)? ... etc.
 * In the context established by the following template, it is not unreasonable for me to have been blissfully unaware that this minor edit would ignite a dispute with dimensions of Korean and Japanese nationalism.
 * In the context established by the following template, it is not unreasonable for me to have been blissfully unaware that this minor edit would ignite a dispute with dimensions of Korean and Japanese nationalism.


 * At that point, my primary focus was in re-examining the extent to which Wikipedia articles about the NIkkei might be better served by melding or marrying the slightly divergent perspectives in:
 * Japanese Foreign Ministry: Japan-Netherlands Relations
 * Statistics Nederlands; Statistics Netherlands
 * Japaners in Nederland


 * In the context of the thread above, these are devalued considerations, irrelevant factors. Whatever is going on here has devolved into a game about something else entirely ... and without putting too fine a point on it, there's something gravely amiss.


 * While I continue to follow Taemyr's lead, I have increased misgivings. --Tenmei (talk) 21:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

A neutral comment: I think it's fair to describe this thread is a learning experience -- as a work-in-progress. --Tenmei (talk) 21:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not WP:SOAPBOX
, your behavior is really tiresome. Before you altering/achieving other people's comment, or organizing talk pages, ask people here first. Besides, this talk page is not WP:OWN by you and talk page is to discuss things, so please abide by the guideline.--Caspian blue 22:14, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Apology
 * Who are you kidding? Pull you socks up. --Tenmei (talk) 00:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC) Taemyr helped me understand that it is reasonable to construe collapsing text as tantamount or the same as altering it.  Previously, I did not see it that way; nor did I anticipate that there would be any objection -- even from someone as eager to find fault as Caspian blue.  I had misunderstood that I was showing appropriate deference to your sensibilities because all the words remained in place, untouched, unaffected.  I was wrong.


 * I can easily apologize for my error in this instance. I won't make a similar mistake in future.  I'm expressing genuine regret for an error of form, but I do not apologize for my intention.  It is entirely possible to disagree without being diasgreeable.


 * In this context, I continue to be offended by this section heading, by the words and tone of derision which follow, and by the overly-contentious nature of the disputes Caspian blue contrives -- so offended that it gave me pause before offering this narrowly-focused apology. I'm also keenly aware of the counter-intuitive contempt which similar open-handed gestures have engendered in the past. --Tenmei (talk) 04:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

No consensus for moving disambiguation page
Although it is potentially confusing, the fact is that discussions and disputes this topic are developing in several concurrent threads. The following on-point observation is copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation:
 * ... The dab page only goes at Yonsei (disambiguation) if there is a primary topic at Yonsei. Making that move presupposes that a primary topic exists, and that in turn implies agreement on what that primary topic is. As WP:PRIMARYTOPIC says, lack of agreement on that is often good evidence that no primary topic exists. So I don't think you should move the dab page without explicit agreement on the primary topic. -- AndrewHowse 22:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

At this point, a consensus for moving this page has not been achieved. --Tenmei (talk) 15:16, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * As db-movedab was removed as controversial, I went to WP:RM to revert the page move. Please participate discussion at Talk:Yonsei (disambiguation). --Kusunose 16:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know where the discussion for this goes now.

Yonsei is a word with a specific meaning. There is a good and growing article there. Yonsei University is not called "Yonsei". By its own history and website, the hospital is called Severance hospital not Yonsei University Severance hospital.

Look at "Oxford". Oxford has a university. Oxford has a hospital. But the main page is about Oxford. Its simple and tidy. The person complaining is motivated by personal issues and my experience of them attacking me so far and, for example re-writing "child prostitution to "underage prostitution", makes me suspect their intentions and consider that the importance of it all has been exaggerated out of proportion. (Occidentalist (talk) 05:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)). Note Long-term disruptive and block-evading sockpuppeter, User:Lucyintheskywithdada's comment who has been indef. blocked again--Caspian blue 23:27, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I feel that I have to agree with Occidentalist on this one, Yonsei as far as I can understand has one meaning, the example relating to Oxford seems to prove the point quite well. I know Caspian Blue has strong feelings regarding this, but I hope she can see the logic in this and agree that her prior edits were incorrect. Sennen goroshi (talk) 16:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm,, it is funny, Sennen goroshi, why did you start me calling "she"? Besides, your feeling is totally irrelevant because the primary topic is only decided by amounts of "sources" in English. If you look though the provided sources or news, people simply refers to Yonsei University as Yonsei. Well, Occidentalist, the teenagers in your expanded contents are not equal to "children". Besides, given your hoax sources and your disruptive cut-and-past edits that an admin and editors here pointed out, your intention looks quite obvious.--Caspian blue 16:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)