Talk:Youth Time

Promotional editing and edit-warring
I have reverted the repeated attempts to over-write this article with promotional, unreferenced, PR hype, e.g.


 * The mission of the organization is a dynamic youth-led initiative that empowers, engages, and inspires young, talented leaders from around the world to suggest constructive social change

It's unencylopedic dross. This is an encyclopedia article not the recruiting page for this organization. I note that editor who repeatedly adds this information has now been reverted by three separate editors and is engaged in edit-warring rather than discussion. You are doing neither yourself, nor your organization, any good. The kind of blatant PR added here detracts from the organization's reputation rather than enhancing, and you will be blocked for edit-warring. Enough. Voceditenore (talk) 13:48, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Request edit on 23 February 2016
I previously violated wiki policy editing this article. My edits were therefore undone. However, the changes were so drastic that now this article does no provide any relevant information and the references are messed up. I suggest the following content for revision:

"Youth Time International Movement is an international NGO based in Prague, Czech Republic, and founded by active young leaders from Greece, India, Czech Republic, Croatia, Estonia, France, Italy, and Russia to establish a platform for open intercultural and inter-generational dialogue to offer concrete solutions for fighting alarming social issues. The organization provides youth leadership workshops, networking opportunities, and cross-cultural interaction events."

I believe this information does not constitute self-promotion, and gives an overview of the organization. Additionally, the page should have the movement's logo and be placed under NGO category. As more information becomes available, the authors can add to the page. Please, consider this changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bojdufa (talk • contribs) 14:04, 23 February 2016 (UTC)


 * No, it will not be changed to that. See my comments above and below. It's PR hype and copied verbatim from the Youth Time website. Voceditenore (talk) 14:09, 23 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Further to this, Bojdufa, you were blocked under your previous username Ytprograms. Can you please explain what your relationship is to the account Programsyt who created an account this morning and has been edit-warring today to restore the inappropriate version you are asking for? Voceditenore (talk) 14:20, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I've opened a discussion with them on their Talk page about that. It's best to have those discussions outside of discussions about content... it just gets too messy to mix them up. Jytdog (talk) 16:14, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
Prior content in this duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.youth-time.org/about-us/about-us-2. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)

For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Voceditenore (talk) 14:06, 23 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Note that even if permission were received, material pasted directly from websites, press releases, etc. is almost invariably promotional and lacking in encyclopedic style and tone. It would still require heavy editing to bring it into line with our Manual of Style and key principles of Neutral point of view and Verifiability. Voceditenore (talk) 14:06, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * If you look at the bottom of the page it is actually Creative Commons BY-​SA 3.0, but I agree, the content doesn't belong. SmartSE (talk) 14:18, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * You're right, SmartSE, it is CC-BY-SA. I didn't read past © 2015 Youth Time Inter­na­tional Move­ment. But as you say, it is still inappropriate content. Voceditenore (talk) 14:23, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Request edit on 23 February 2016 - Misleading unsupported claims, bad citation and poor gamma
I apologize if my suggestion violates copyright. However Voceditenore's contribution does not represent a natural point of view. It links the organization to specific individuals, makes allegations that the events are founded by a specific organization, claims that the organization was founded in Prague (it is based, not founded in Prague) and uses poor grammar: (see in bold below)

"The Youth Time International Movement is an international NGO was founded in Prague, Czech Republic to enable and motivate young people to collaborate and create social change.[1][2]

Starting in 2010, it has co-hosted youth conferences in various countries in collaboration with, and funded by, the World Public Forum, which was founded and run by Vladimir Yakunin, former president of Russian Railways and close to Vladimir Putin.[1][3] The conferences are a form of public diplomacy that bring together young activists, entrepreneurs, and other young people to work toward a mulitpolar future, more in tune with the needs of developing nations.[1][2]

Here is my suggestion:

"Youth Time International Movement is an international NGO based in Prague, Czech Republic. It hosts and co-hosts conferences in various countries in order to bring together active and young people in order to enable and motivate them to collaborate and create social change." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bojdufa (talk • contribs) 14:29, 23 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Bojdufa, my "contribution" was simply to revert to the previous version of the article without the PR hype. I did not write that version. The fact that Vladimir Yakunin is close to Putin is probably gratuitous, and I'm going to remove that (if others agree), but nothing else. Why do you want to eliminate any mention of YT's relationship to WPF and its founder? And no, your version is not an improvement. You still haven't answered my question above: You were blocked under your previous username Ytprograms. Can you please explain what your relationship is to the account Programsyt who created an account this morning and has been edit-warring today to restore the inappropriate version you are asking for? Voceditenore (talk) 15:10, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Several sources mention the links between Yakunin and Putin e.g. this one (not cited) which has a section translating to "The positions of Mr. Yakunin [very close to Vladimir Putin] are known to all" so it is pertinent to include it. SmartSE (talk) 15:27, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree, especially after doing my own searches on this organization and having found the material about Russian propaganda in at least two seemingly Czech reputable sources. Perhaps Vejvančický can give an opinion. He's from the Czech Republic and an admin and, I believe, he had previously added one of those sources to the article. Voceditenore (talk) 16:06, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Propaganda
I can't work out who removed it, but was it purposeful to remove the czech sources linking the organisation to the Kremlin that were [|present in the article] until last week? SmartSE (talk) 15:21, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * SmartSE, the "Russian propaganda" material and reference was removed by Bojdufa, a week prior to 's clean-up. This is not the first time it has been removed either. See , , . The first removal was by the article's creator, the second was by this IP SPA which registers to Prague, and the third by this SPA account who allegedly hasn't edited since. Voceditenore (talk) 15:58, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * That was not in the article when I went to work on this, but as I worked I became aware of it. I found the sources kind of marginal and on controversial content I try to raise source quality. The actual content I wrote was written with some of that in mind; noting their partner for conferences.. the stuff about public diplomacy, the multipolar thing, etc which is in Figaro.  What do you think about the reliability of the sources - and I wonder if there are stronger sources for some of these claims? Big picture, though -  I won't revert if someone else restores that content.  Jytdog (talk) 16:21, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd certainly be disinclined to use the multiple articles here, it's an "investigative journalism" site started in 2015. See cs:Neovlivní.cz. This one, however, is from Echo24, the online version of the Czech print publication Echo. See cs:Echo24. Even so, I'd use that cautiously, if at all, since it is partly reporting the Neovlivní article. Voceditenore (talk) 17:01, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I was unsure about the sourcing as well which is why I asked. The editor-in-chief of cs:Neovlivní.cz is a reputable journalist and the site itself is notable e.g. so I think it is RS. We should consider including something, but it should be framed carefully to indicate it was reported by them, rather than being cast iron fact. SmartSE (talk) 18:00, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Ok so the content and sourcing that used to be in the article was as follows:
 * The movement and its Youth Time Magazine have been labelled as a "sophisticated form of Russian propaganda" by some of the Czech media, such as the servers Echo 24 and Neovlivní.cz. Sabina Slonková of Neovlivní.cz has called Julia Kinash (president of the Youth Time movement) the "secret first lady" of Russian propaganda.

I think the following would be perhaps better:
 * The activities of Youth Time have been described as Russian propaganda by Echo 24 and Neovlivní.cz; they noted that people with pro-Russian viewpoints and who criticize the economic sanctions on Russia are featured at Youth Time conferences and educational events, and in Youth Time's magazine. . Sabina Slonková of Neovlivní.cz has reported that Julia Kinash, founder and president of Youth Time, reported that she received a degree from Moscow State University and wrote her dissertation on the role of the media in political conflicts and noted her close ties with Yakunin.

- Thoughts? Maybe too much weight... Jytdog (talk) 18:14, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't know...given how short the current article is, I'd be inclined to leave it out as undue weight, especially the first version. The second version minus the bit about Kinash would be OK. I can't remember, do either of the articles mention any examples of guest speakers with pro-Russian/anti-sanctions viewpoints? Voceditenore (talk) 19:37, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * the slonkova source says (via google translate} "This is primarily a luxury lifestyle magazine, who brings interviews with people sympathetic to pro-Kremlin policy" and the echo source says (via google translate) "Contrary to that philosophy movement is in its operation and in the periodical itself very apparent politicization and personality, which selects Youth Time, frequently criticize the West and now the associated sanctions against Russia. Kinash has close ties to the influential friend of President Putin, Vladimir Yakunin, head of Russian Railways, which it often helps to get an interview with a prominent figure both Russian politics. " and notes that its conferences "usually assembles top politicians sympathetic to Russia, including Milos Zeman."Jytdog (talk) 20:21, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * i prefer not to use quotes in controversial articles - especially when the quote has strong language, as then every "side" involves wants to quote their people and get their strong language in. We should just summarize what reliable sources say and it we need to attribute, we do that.... Jytdog (talk) 20:22, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Alright, boys. If you like to look for connections and develop conspiracy theories do it on some other platform. Referencing a journalist is not an encyclopedic information, and presenting this one paragraph you are so strongly working on is in no way a natural representation of the organization. I will be appealing to administrators and moderators to block you from editing this content. How about you look for proper references, establish connections showing evidence (I am very curious to find out myself) and write about the operations of the organization. Then, you can add your speculations under the header "speculations". I am deeply disappointing seeing what a bunch of arrogant individuals, with no knowledge of the subject, except how to edit wiki articles, can do to destroy the integrity of this platform. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bojdufa (talk • contribs) 13:55, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * First of all, we are not all "boys". I am a woman. I can't speak for the others. Secondly, attacking other editors is very unconstructive. Please stick to a discussion about the content not the editors. I personally think that in such a short article, the Echo24 commentary probably would be undue weight, although that may change if further sources appear. But please note, Youth Time's advertising brochures and press releases are not a "natural representation" of the organization either. This is why we require articles to be sourced to third party publications. Voceditenore (talk) 17:13, 24 February 2016 (UTC)


 * so shall we go with the first sentence of the second version, as proposed above, like this?


 * The activities of Youth Time have been described as Russian propaganda by Echo 24 and Neovlivní.cz; they noted that people with pro-Russian viewpoints and who criticize the economic sanctions on Russia are featured at Youth Time conferences and educational events, and in Youth Time's magazine..


 * - Jytdog (talk) 10:47, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Yakunin no longer "close" to Putin
I've changed
 * run by Vladimir Yakunin, former president of Russian Railways and close to Vladimir Putin.

to
 * run by Vladimir Yakunin, former president of Russian Railways and at the time close to Vladimir Putin..

It appears from multiple news articles that Yakunin is most decidedly not close to Putin now. See for example, "Russia’s elite remain vulnerable to President Putin’s whim, warns ousted ally" (Daily Telegraph 13 January 2016). Voceditenore (talk) 18:05, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * hm. Ok. Jytdog (talk) 18:34, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

magazine
I'm not comfortable with this content, as there is no independent sourcing

The organization's official magazine, Youth Time, is published bi-monthly in English and Russian. Its editor-in-chief is Julia Kinash, the founder and president of the Youth Time International Movement. According to the magazine, it has a circulation of 28,000 with 65% of its subscribers based in Russia, 20% in Germany, and 15% in the Czech Republic.

The content we discussed above out of the Czech Republic mentioned the magazine; that was independent sourcing for it that I thought served the purpose of mentioning the magazine (along with the other stuff, of course)... Jytdog (talk) 10:28, 26 February 2016 (UTC)


 * I think it's perfectly valid to mention the magazine's existence and circulation and the fact that it's in Russian and English, as long as it is made clear that the circulation figures come from the magazine. As for how often it appears, in what language, and who its editor is, it is normal to reference those simple facts to the magazine itself. The main publication of an organization is perfectly valid content for an encyclopedia article about the organization. As a reader, don't you find it interesting that 65% of its subscribers are in Russia, that it appears to have no other circulation outside Germany and the Czech Republic? The text is perfectly neutral. Any judgement about the magazine's merits or otherwise would need a third party reference. Really, Jytdog, if we've got this article, it's pointless to withhold information from the reader simply because of the past COI editing from the organization. Adding the opinions of the two Czech sources just looks like an undue attack on the organization unless you provide basic information about the magazine itself. Re-add the basic information and then add the commentary by Echo24 (which also confirms the circulation figures), e.g.


 * The organization's official magazine, Youth Time, is published bi-monthly in English and Russian. Its editor-in-chief is Julia Kinash, the founder and president of the Youth Time International Movement. The magazine states that it has a circulation of 28,000 with 65% of its subscribers based in Russia, 20% in Germany, and 15% in the Czech Republic. According to Echo24, while the magazine's topics are predominantly on lifestyle trends, it also presents "pro-Russian 'subliminal' messages", such as a cover story and interview on politics and the Ukrainian crisis with Miloš Zeman, an opponent of anti-Russian sanctions. Other featured interviewees have included Alexander Karelin, the former Greco-Roman wrestler and a United Russia party member of the Russian State Duma..


 * Voceditenore (talk) 11:32, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
 * couple of things there don't ring well. I took a shot at implementing this set of things. Jytdog (talk) 18:32, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
 * But what you put wasn't quite what the Echo24 source said, Jytdog. It said that the magazine also featured Alexander Karelin who talked about Russian politics, but it didn't say he was anti-sanction (although he may well be, I assume most Russians are). They only said that explictly about Zeman. I've tweaked it a bit. Voceditenore (talk) 19:01, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Those changes were an improvement, so thanks.  doesn't think we should mention the magazine; I've added Echo24 there as a source to provide some independent sources for its existence.  With that, I think we are good for now... Jytdog (talk) 19:14, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, without secondary coverage, I can't see the magazine is due. Alexbrn (talk) 19:25, 26 February 2016 (UTC)


 * As I said before, Alex, mentioning the main publication of an organization is perfectly valid content and quite normal for an encyclopedia article about the organization, as is referencing simple facts about it to the magazine itself. Besides, the magazine is covered in the Echo24 article, which also gives its current total circulation and notes that amidst its predominantly life-style articles is subtle pro=Russian propaganda. I get that the COI editor has been very obstructive and a real pain here, but we're here to serve Wikipedia's readers, not to take revenge on COI editors and their employers just for the sake of it, and I feel that's what's influencing the content right now. Voceditenore (talk) 19:40, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Why should Wikipedia be the only secondary/tertiary text on the planet that mentions it? This is not summarizing "accepted knowledge". Still, I'll not make a fuss, poor as it is. Alexbrn (talk) 19:51, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

I think that the article as it stands now gives a short, neutral and relevant summary of the articles mentioned in Echo24 and Neovlivní.cz. Both the servers are relatively new Czech media founded partly by journalists who left major Czech newspapers Mladá fronta DNES and Lidové noviny after they were bought by Andrej Babiš, the second richest Czech and current Finance Minister. Sabina Slonková is one of them. The websites (there's also another one I forgot to mention, called Svobodné fórum) are strongly "anti-Babiš" and they also frequently criticize the Czech president Miloš Zeman for his pro-Russian stances, among other things. The article published by Echo cites report by Slonková, who is a well known investigative journalist. A foreign ministry official was sentenced to 12 years for preparing her murder in the 2000's. I think that the opinions/concerns published by Echo and Neovlivní represent an important viewpoint on the topic (Youth Time). --Vejvančický (talk / contribs) 07:11, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for providing that perspective. I am glad you are good with the article now; I am too. Jytdog (talk) 19:09, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

F aristocrat changes
F aristocrat, please discuss the changes you want to make here. This article was carefully worked over not long ago. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 07:44, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Yet further pressure
So if the list of conflicted editors isn't obvious enough, and the recent history of the article, Youth Time, which per its mission is all about being the "good guys" and working for social change, is committed to ignoring our policies about SOCK and NPOV and our COI guidelines to try to make this article into their own website, presenting themselves the way that they wish to be presented.

Folks from Youth Time - instead of continually trying to subvert the policies and guidelines to force this article to be as you want it to be, please go back to one of the several SOCK accounts you already have created, that have been indefinitely blocked, and use the Talk page there to acknowledge that you have acted terribly, promise to actually try to work with the community under its policies and guidelines, and ask to be unblocked. Until you are unblocked - legitimately unblocked -  all your efforts are futile - you all have lost your privileges to edit Wikipedia. Editing is a privilege freely offered to all, but a privilege that can be lost. You are indefinitely blocked and anybody you send is going to be blocked per SOCK or MEAT. That is the situation you have put yourselves in by acting as you have.

And what is the crappiest aspect of what you are doing, is that all of us have other stuff we want to be doing in Wikipedia. People to help who actually want to be good members of the community, messes to clean up from other unethical editors, and content to build - articles about drugs and diseases that really need attention and I would love to get to. You know, work related to the reason why this place exists, which is to give people information they need - it does not exist to promote anything. But you keep sucking up my time, and the time of others, with your selfishness and efforts to abuse Wikipedia for self-promotion. Just knock it off. Jytdog (talk) 10:44, 13 April 2016 (UTC)


 * 
 * You cannot find consensus (and indeed will not be allowed to) by pretending to be different people. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi  11:09, 13 April 2016 (UTC)