Talk:Ysabella (trobairitz)

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Interesting...why is it speculated that she may be Isabella of Jerusalem? Adam Bishop (talk) 07:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll look more into it later today. The Bruckner-Shepard-White source just says "widow of Conrad of Montferrat", which would mean her. I assumed that there was some speculation about Elias perhaps going on to Jerusalem (since he was part of the Fourth Crusade). I also assumed the theory to be outdated (romantic meeting in the east between commoner and queen), but my source is rather recent. Srnec (talk) 12:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I expanded the article greatly and I checked the source for Isabella of Jerusalem. It only refers to "Isabella of Montferrat", the supposed "widow of Bonifaces' brother, Conrad", referring to Boniface of Thessalonica. This is odd, since Conrad had only one widow and it was Isabella of Jerusalem, that must be to whom the text is referring, though "of Montferrat" disconcertingly applied to the wife of a Montferrat who was more significantly the queen of Jerusalem (not mentioned!). Somebody somewhere along the line has confused their Montferrats and their Isabellas. I leave the reference there for now, however, since it is sourced and there may be something I do not know that corroborates it. Notice also how interconnected the possible candidates for the trobairtiz are: a sister of Conrad and Boniface (brothers), a widow of Conrad, a vassal of Boniface, and a daughter of a vassal of Boniface. Srnec (talk) 03:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Ganiere as a source for identification
It seems problematic that Ganiere's "woman from Perigord" is cited as an hypothesis on the same foot than the others. This is "only" a M.A. thesis and it does not provide any discussion about the identification: Ganiere simply assumes that Ysabella is from the same region than Cairel, and does not seem aware of previous identifications and existent bibliography; we can't present this on the same level as other hypothesis.--Phso2 (talk) 08:09, 9 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I'd just point out that it isn't as if the other proposals are more solidly backed. That is, all we have is the tenso and it doesn't say who Ysabella is. Everybody is guessing. Srnec (talk) 12:55, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
 * She is also cited in some of Cairel's works, which can somehow provide (slight/evanescent) glimpses or hints about her. The other proposals at least are based on textual "evidences" (or elements interpreted as such) and reasoning (perhaps not in the given sources, but these only cite previous authors without explaining much of their rationale, ie they search an high-born Isabella having some connection to the Montferrat and to Latin Greece, as inferred by their interpretation of Cairel's allusions) and have more academic weight, when Ganiere doesn't seem aware that Cairel traveled extensively, and doesn't go beyond truims ("Based upon (...) the fact that he is courting Isabella, we can infer that she is living during the same time period.") or unfounded naive assumptions ("we can suggest that Isabella is likely from the same area as Elias Cairel")--Phso2 (talk) 13:18, 12 July 2019 (UTC)