Talk:Ysabella Brave

POV
I'm a huge fan. But the POV on this page is horendous. needs some clean up. 76.112.102.98 02:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed, one section added by User:Ysabellabrave is unreferenced and relates to matters of opinion. I have edited it. However, I remain uneasy about the tone of this article. --Duncan 16:21, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I see no POV or any other issues with this article. Try reading some other articles about singers before arriving at any conclusions.  WorthWatching 14:52, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Look harder. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.144.69.85 (talk) 14:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Please elaborate. WorthWatching (talk) 18:17, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If I had a nickel for everytime a wikipedian asked someone else to add information to a wikipage, I would be rich. travb (talk) 09:31, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Notability
Can anyone explain to me why this individual has a full on page on this site while real artists like Judith Minty (poet laureate Michigan) and Carol Schneeman (significant feminist performance artist through 1970s see 'interior scroll', etc.) have no entries to speak of? Was it too difficult to go to a book to verify material for those two and easier to clip stuff off the web for this person? -Vinegartom 14:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This individual, Ysabella Brave, has a full page because it's deserved. If your "real artists" warrant a page, it would better serve Wikipedia to create the articles, as opposed to lamenting their absence on the discussion page of an unrelated article.  WorthWatching (talk) 01:47, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Per Notability (people), here are reasons why Ysabellabrave is notable:
 * The person has been the subject of published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject.
 * The two articles cited as sources.
 * Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following.
 * I believe this is verifiable from a perusal of Ysabellabrave's YouTube video comments and responses.
 * The case could also be made per WP:MUSIC that Ysabellabrave "Has become the most prominent representative of a notable style", namely that of online amateur video singing; however, that would be a bit hard to prove (and the category itself is perhaps non-notable). RandomCritic 02:10, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Claiming Notability before Ysabella Brave's first published recording for Cordless Recordings is really making a huge assumption that the contract is success in and off itself. Perceived success on YouTube is at best a fuzzy concept and none of the easily abused metrics on that site are reliable indicators of current or future notability.
 * AnotherDayAnotherID 23:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The notability is clear and now, not a claim for the future. Ysabella Brave is among the first to make the leap between rising from a total unknown on a video sharing website to signing a deal with a major entertainment entity, all in less than a year--truly remarkable by any standard.  Her story has been followed by the largest newspaper in the U.S., The New York Times, and covered by the second largest newspaper in the country, the Los Angeles Times, as well, in a feature story written by Pulitzer Prize winning columnist Dan Neil, among other publications and blogs.  There are many people and events on Wikipedia with considerably less notability than Ysabella Brave.  Trying to single her out at this point appears you are either uninformed or biased, particularly, "AnotherDayAnotherID," when you come in here to edit in a cloaked manner and only her article.  WorthWatching 10:41, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Entirely agreed this article is a prime candidate for deletion. Her popularity has waned to the point where she was a non-entity on YouTube long before they pulled her channels.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.100.88.99 (talk) 05:52, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Recording contracts are irrelevant, as her nobility is not necessarily as a "recording artist" in the conventional sense. And the importance of an article relative to other articles is also irrelevant, as meeting this requirement should stand on it's own (it's not a contest). Notability and popularity are being confused here. Notability is not about metrics (especially unreliable ones like those on YT). I agree with the two parameters stated above by RandomCritic. x (talk) 16:38, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Name
The revisions to the article create the misapprehension that "Brave" is ysabellabrave's last name, instead of just being part of her user name. In particular, calling her "Ms. Brave" is quite odd. RandomCritic 17:46, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "Brave" is her chosen surname and is not a "nickname." Billboard refers to her as, "vocalist Ysabella Brave"--it would be difficult to find a greater authority in the music business than Billboard. Her label, Cordless Recordings, names her as "Ysabella Brave" (check their website and blogs) as does the LA Times (with whom she did an interview), so "Ms. Brave" is an appropriate variation.  "ysabellabrave" is a YouTube channel, as is "ysabellabravetalk." Neither of her current YouTube channels, nor any others she may create in the future derived from her name, are her name.  WorthWatching 19:30, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * However, the use of "Ms." is unnecessary and not exactly encyclopedic, so simply "Brave" will be used instead of "Ms. Brave," since it's presumptuous and non-encyclopedic to refer to her on a familiar basis. WorthWatching 21:00, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a nice theory but it's not factual. On this matter, I take MaryAnne as a greater authority than either Billboard or Cordless, and on her video, "A Word From Your Pal MaryAnne", she says (direct quote), "Ysabellabrave is a nickname that my father gave to me, I suppose he considers me to be a brave lady; so, that's where that comes from." RandomCritic 16:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The origin of the name Ysabella Brave is beside the point--what matters is it obviously is her chosen name. Latching on to how it was mentioned in a video last year isn't keeping up with the times.  Currently, the background images on both her YouTube channel profiles have the words, "Ysabella Brave" prominently shown.  Since they are her profiles and appear to be under her control, I assume she approves of how her name is displayed.  WorthWatching 19:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Her characterization of it is as a nickname; claiming that background images prove that she is claiming it as her name is an interpretation that goes far beyond the evidence. In any case, as it is not her given name, nor has she legally changed her name to "Ysabella Brave", it can at best be considered as a stage name (something fully consistent with the usage you mention).  As an encyclopedic article, the article should not give a false impression. RandomCritic 00:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It is not uncommon for people who find themselves in the public eye to use a name different than their birth name. Who is Alicia Augello-Cook, Joscelyn Stoker, and Stevland Judkins?  If you answered Alicia Keys, Joss Stone, and Stevie Wonder, you'd be correct.  Have they legally changed their names?  Who knows and it's irrelevant.  We do not refer to their chosen career names as their "stage names" whenever we write or speak of them.  Ysabella Brave's birth name is listed, more than once, within her article; there is no false impression.  Specifying that "Ysabella Brave" is a "stage name" is unnecessary and inconsistent with common practice.  Further, if you consider Ysabella Brave to be the greater authority, and she is, you may want to pay attention to her recent videos and listen to how she names herself, how she signs her video descriptions, and to her name listing on her YouTube profile--it's either Ysabella Brave or Ysabella.  Additionally, you may not be familiar with Federal and California State law concerning name changes.  "Common usage" means someone can simply begin using a name consistently and PRESTO, it's their name.  Lately, she has been consistently using Ysabella Brave in every situation known to us where a name is required.  Making a legal name change, by the way, is entirely optional.  And you claim to know if she has changed it legally?  In fact, many people who are publicly known as one name have likely not legally changed their name to match and instead maintain their birth name on identification and other personal documentation.  I recall standing next to Rick James when he had his driver's license out and it read, "James Ambrose Johnson, Jr."  He never bothered to change his name after a long career, yet he was known to the world as Rick James, not Rick James (stage name).  If Ysabella Brave is going by Ysabella Brave then by golly she's Ysabella Brave!  "Stage name" doesn't belong in this article and simply listing her birth name is sufficient.  WorthWatching 06:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Ysabella Brave is a single nickname with two parts, like Fat Bob, Curly Sue or even "Worth Watching". Using the last (descriptive) bit without the first does not make sense Mr. Worth. You may be surprised how few people in the world feel compelled to comply with the Christian name - Surname paradigm, especially when giving others nicknames (and it is a nickname, when it comes to Ysabella Brave, MaryAnne is a greater authority than Billboard, you should have asked her first).

As for Ysabella Brave's real name, I assume you are both aware of the consequences of publishing the personal information of private individuals that has not been released to the general public (arguing that Ysabella Brave is no longer a private person on the strength of a couple of opinion based newspaper articles is not valid).

The reason that you are both struggling with your attempts to write this article in the usual encyclopedic fashion for noteworthy people is that, in my opinion, you are both constrained by the fact that Ysabella Brave is not yet noteworthy. Trying to prove otherwise could even prove harmful to her fledgling music career and reputation. AnotherDayAnotherID 23:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The only thing I'm struggling with, "AnotherDayAnotherID," is your logic. Calling me Mr. Worth makes no sense, maybe you meant Mr. Watching.  However, your point is lost because I have never referred to myself as simply, "Worth," nor have I ever separated, "WorthWatching."  Ysabella Brave regularly calls herself, "Ysabella."  In the discussion area, I'll refer to her on a familiar basis as well.  There is no need to ask Ysabella what she's naming herself, because she is telling us herself, repeatedly, if we take the time to look and acknowledge it.  Read the description of Ysabella's last 15 videos and you may notice that she signs them with either, "Ysabella" or "Ysabella Brave."  "MaryAnne" ceased to be her signature or in the tags back in May 2007 and has been replaced by, "Ysabella" and "Brave."  Her channel ysabellabrave reads, "Ysabella" as her name.  Both her channels have background images with, "Ysabella Brave" on them, clearly as two names.  Her label calls her, "Ysabella Brave."  At some point, everyone entering the entertainment business has to decide on a name and it's up to us to report it and use it.  It doesn't matter what their birth name was, how they arrived at their name, or what they may have called themselves earlier, just what they are calling themselves now and in the foreseeable future.  Perhaps you have simply missed that she is Ysabella Brave; hopefully, I have shed some light on it.  My agenda here, which was questioned earlier, is to accurately report Ysabella in her article, based on the most current information available to us, and I have the same agenda on any article I edit.  WorthWatching 11:17, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Mr.  ? AnotherDayAnotherID 20:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the view that we should not refer to her as Ms. Brave, for the reasons give above. --Duncan 16:26, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Karaoke
MaryAnne specifies on her videos that the tracks she uses are from Karaoke CDs. RandomCritic 23:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
If you do not have a legitimate contribution to this article, which includes references to publicly verifiable sources, please refrain from making any edits. Without the appropriate substantiation, such edits amount to nothing more than vandalism and will be immediately reverted. WorthWatching 04:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Please update regarding YouTube suspension!
Can someone please update this entry - all her videos have been removed from YouTube and I would love to know why! Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.92.60 (talk) 07:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't know why, but her web site vanished as I was viewing it. I thought this event was noteworthy enough to update the main page.

Peter 09:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The web site has in fact returned, albeit with some structure changes, so I removed my comment about the web site from the main page.

Peter 09:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.228.186 (talk)
 * I've put a reference to her most recent talk channel video, which states why she lost her music video channel. --Petercorless (talk) 21:38, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

To the editor who deleted content with the statement "Wikipedia is not a newspaper" (what does that peculiar comment mean anyway when this site is usually updated when events happen?), the fact that both of her channels are now defunct is an encyclopedic enough fact, surely... Recent events also leave this article inaccurate. Suggest avoiding "fact fury perfectionism" and getting the article ship-shape please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.92.60 (talk) 06:59, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Would you prefer "Wikipedia is not a soap opera?" We don't need a play-by-play for someone who is now clearly a minor figure on YouTube.  She may once have been a leading attraction, but her most recent performances were viewed only a tiny fraction of her earlier numbers.  Hardly noteworthy.  This article is becoming a candidate for AfD.75.100.88.117 (talk) 17:35, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've modified the statement about the suspension. It's definitely a fact that the suspension occurred, however, is there a reliable source that indicates why she was suspended? Pending that, I've removed that part. x (talk) 18:00, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Ysabella Brave's article should not be deleted
The very idea of deleting this article is inappropriate, as if the likely temporary suspension of Ysabella Brave's YouTube channels means she is any less significant in the annals of people gaining recognition through the Internet. She reached several milestones, including being a pioneer on YouTube--at the time of her suspension, she was still among the top 100 YouTube Directors. Getting signed by a Warner Group music company was an achievement. The fact that she may not still be signed is irrelevant--it happened (she's still on Cordless' MySpace page), she was signed, and she was one of the first to make the crossover; that fact alone is noteworthy and will never change. Her contributions and place in history will remain, regardless of what her current status is on YouTube, even if no one was watching her at the time of her suspension, which was not the case--her talk video about her suspension charted on YouTube's top 5 videos. She had about 48,000 subscribers at the time of the suspensions. Oprah, who is, "arguably the world's most powerful woman," according to Time and CNN, has 48,000 subscribers, so trying to claim that Ysabella Brave was insignificant to YouTube doesn't follow. Ysabella Brave exists beyond YouTube: a Google search turns up over 80,000 hits, with videos and mentions of her all over the Web in articles and blogs, not just on YouTube. If the suspension of her YouTube channels is being considered relevant, than every other person who has had a project end or pause, like the cancellation or hiatus of a TV show, should be a candidate for deletion as well. Also, anyone who has tried to deal with YouTube on suspension issues knows that they are not fast acting, with no phone support, and I imagine during the holidays must be especially difficult to get results, making it way too early to even be suggesting deletion. I also think the details surrounding the suspension, which has been reduced to one line, are relevant and should remain. WorthWatching (talk) 07:34, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Some of you do indeed seem to be confusing notability and popularity. Ysabella Brave is definitely notable.  The fact she was signed to a label was an early indication of her status as an artist, not to mention the groundbreaking circumstances.  Artists and labels part ways all the time and takes away nothing from her notability.  All artists' popularity fluctuates, so comparing her current level of popularity with a previous time also means nothing.  There is a trend happening with artists moving away from their labels.  Madonna recently left Warner after 25 years and signed on with Live Nation, who is not a traditional label.  Prince, after an acrimonious split from Warner, famously remained without a label and self-published.  Radiohead has been very nontraditional lately and landed their story on the cover of Rolling Stone recently.  Ysabella Brave is right along the cutting edge of new trends in the music business to be nontraditional.  I don't think Wikipedia is a place exclusively for traditional arrangements.  In fact, I believe one of the strengths of Wikipedia is to shed tradition and to have articles with content that might not be offered in traditional publications, which are quickly becoming obsolete.  Holding Ysabella Brave to some arbitrary standard that she must be a conventional artist, signed to a traditional label, and at the same time maintain her highest level of popularity, is all ridiculous.  What she has accomplished is done and notable and what is to come is unknown, so trying to play erasure at this juncture makes no sense.  WorthWatching (talk) 13:33, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Before I restore some of the facts surrounding the suspension, I'm interested to hear arguments against it. WorthWatching (talk) 03:41, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Unless they are cited from a reliable third party source, they will simply be removed yet again and you will be warned about vandalism... -- R andom H umanoid ( &rArr; ) 03:45, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As I have been reminded many times before, deleting material and adding back material is not considered vandalism. I find it sadly ironic that you feel the addition of material is vandalism, but not the deletion. The very term vandalism conjures pictures of someone taking away, not adding too.travb (talk) 09:39, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Adding unsourced, POV material that has previously been deleted for that reason is vandalism in my opinion. I have no vendetta against Ysabella Brave.  I just happen to like the integrity of WP more.  Please WP:Assume_good_faith. -- R andom H umanoid ( &rArr; ) 18:12, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Deleted material
The following material was deleted from the main page, much of it unsourced:

travb (talk) 09:49, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Not listed
Currently, Ysabella Brave is not listed among the signed artists at Cordless Recordings' website.-- R andom H umanoid ( &rArr; ) 00:05, 2 January 2009 (UTC)