Talk:Yue Fei/Archive 1

I uploaded a picture of Yue Fei, but I think the image should be cropped and resized, personally. Can anyone with image-editting software edit it to make it look nicer? --Yuje 03:18, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Manjiang Hong in English
is there a english translation of Manjiang Hong?

Man Chiang Hung literally means “whole river is red” was written by a Sung dynasty general named Yueh Fei, who vowed to crush the Jurchen occupiers of the northern China. He wrote this poem to express his patriotic sorrows about his weakened country.


 * There are English translations, but all of the translators are quite quesy about the flesh-eating and blood-drinking part. -- Миборовский U 00:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

see article Man Jiang Hong HELLO, WORLD! 15:58, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

charge or no charge?
I found the following sentence untrue to the historical account.
 * He and his son, Yue Yun, were sentenced to death and executed on charges that were not proven but instead "could be true" (Chinese: 莫須有; Pinyin: mò xū yǒu). The phrase has entered the Chinese language as an expression to refer to fabricated charges.

This sentence implies that there was actually an unproven charge of his crime. But in many references, it was said that the reason for his death sentence was 莫須有 which literally means "none needed". A "none needed" crime is quite different from a crime that is unproven. To illustrate the difference, considering a person was accused of murder and then executed before the crime was proven, then it was merely a loop hole in the legal procedure but murder is still a real capital crime if proven. However if a person's charge was "none needed", it was a clearly an abuse of autheority by ignoring any legal system. I've never seen 莫須有 used in modern language to refer to fabricated charges, punished unfairly without reason, yes; fabricated charges, no. Kowloonese 00:22, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Your understanding of ancient Chinese is flawed. Most who studies ancient Chinese texts will tell you that 莫須有 means 也许有 in modern Chinese, which means exactly "could be true".  Yue Fei was indeed charged with a crime, which was treason, the evidence was some probably forged letters.  Clearly this was not enough evidence, but he was executed anyway on the basis of "could be true".  Yue Fei was a very popular and powerful general, he can not possibly be executed for "no reason needed", the reason given by the court was "could be true" treason.  Even given this reason, Yue Fei's execution was almost immediately criticized and mourned.  In the later years of Gaozong, he was under immense pressure from the general public to restore Yue Fei's honor, but he never did.  The next emperor 宋孝宗 almost immediately restored Yue Fei's honor and gave him a proper burial (while his father Gaozong was still alive, but no longer ruling). -- Ranmin 06:25, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * BTW, as a reference, you can check the Chinese wikitionary entry on 莫須有, which clearly states that "none needed" was the wrong interpretation and the correct interpretation was "could be true". http://zh.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%8E%AB%E9%A1%BB%E6%9C%89  -- Ranmin 06:27, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Additional Reference, in the Chinese wikipedia article, it is clearly stated that 秦桧支吾其词“其事体莫须有(也许有)”, I assume you can read Chinese and you should understand that it says "could be true". This fact has never been widely discussed nor disputed until you brought it up here. -- Ranmin 03:39, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * 莫須有 means 也许有 (could be true), not "none needed". I have found some Chinese Web Sites suggesting that the kneeling statues of Mr and Mrs. Qun Hui were produced in Ming Dynasty. On 23 October 2005, an artist exhibited his standing statues of Mr. and Mrs. Qin Hui, but he was harshly blamed. As there is no article for Qin Hui yet, I hope to add this in an article later.--Jusjih 07:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Clean up
I capitalized Yue Fei's name in the first sentence because the paragraph itself was too "busy". Their is so much info about the traditional and simplified spellings of his name that it would had to distinguish anything. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 13:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC))

Chen Guang, Yue Fei's spear master?
I've read the english-version of General Yue Fei's biography. This is where I got the basis for most of my info for the page I wrote on Yue Fei's adopted father Zhou Tong. However, according to a separate history, Yue Fei didn't learn the spear from Zhou Tong, he learned it from a man named Chen Guang. Instead, Yue Fei learned ONLY archery from his adopted father. If anyone has access to chinese manuscripts on this matter and wishes to translate them into English, I'm sure this page would greatly bennifit from you hard work. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 10:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC))
 * I had one of my Chinese friends search the net and he only found this about Chen Guang, "枪手陈广(Spear Man, Chen Guang)". THAT IS IT! All that is known about him is that he was Yue Fei's FIRST martial teacher. Apparently he has been lost to history. The only reason we know of his name is because of his association with Yue Fei.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 04:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC))
 * According to one chinese source which I don't have the correct link to right now, Chen Guang was a noted spear and sword master from the same area as Yue Fei. Since Yue Fei was most famous for his spear skills, you think that there would be more information available on the man who taught him. Plus, if a weapon is considered an extension of the body and is not learned until after mastering prerequisite boxing skills, what was the quanfa taught to Yue Fei by Chen Guang?


 * The research I added sometime ago about Yue Fei's grandfather hiring Chen Guang when the boy was in the "Hat Conferring" Period (ages 15-20) suggests that Zhou Tong was maybe his FIRST martial teacher. If Yue Fei was really adopted after 15 (1118) it leaves less than a year before Zhou Tong's death in 1119. I really doubt Zhou Tong could impart all of his martial knowledge to Yue Fei in that short amount of time. This points to the fact that Zhou Tong adopted Yue Fei at an earlier age. If Yue Fei's family were truly that poor, they would have given their son to Zhou Tong in adoption at an early age to improve his social status: farmer - warrior (which is a short skip to aristocrat if you look at all of that power he gained later in life). Many modern martial-scholars believe Yue Fei gained all of his martial skill by the age of 19, the year he joined the army (1122). Plus, there was a 3 year interval between Zhou Tong's death and the time he joined the army. This could mean Yue Fei had mastered Zhou Tong's boxing and then learned the spear under Chen Guang. So, Yue Fei could have been learning from both men at the same time, but Zhou Tong first and Chen Guang second. Then, after Zhou Tong's death, Yue Fei continued to learn from Chen Guang until he joined the army. But of course all of this is just speculation.


 * I know the "Talk" page is used for discussion on the betterment of the article itself, but I've presented this speculation in the hopes that it might lead other users with superior Yue Fei knowledge to present factual information that is parallel with or more historically accurate. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 13:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC))

The Two Legends...
Over the years, I have come across two different legends about Yue Fei:

1) Guan Di visited Song Dynasty Emperor Huizong in a dream and told him that the hero Zhang Fei had been reborn as a child named "Yo Fei" (Yue Fei). This child would grow up to fight the invaders from the north. (I read this in passing, while doing research on another matter. I'm still trying to find the exact page on the net so I can source it onto the main Yue Fei article).

2) In a previous life, Yue Fei was a Peng (Roc) who poked out the eye of a dragon who lived in the Yellow River. Years later, the Peng was reborn as our hero. The dragon flooded the river in an effort to kill young Yue Fei, but failed. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 20:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC))

Yue Huo, Biological father of Yue Fei ...
I've added the name of Yue Fei's father along with the chinese characters and added a "possible" birth and death date. I'm not sure if it is correct, but I put a questions mark on it to show that. According to Yue Fei's biography, Yue Huo was "...nearly fifty years of age" (47, 48, 49?) when Yue Fei was born. I just subtracted 49 from 1103 to get the date. If anyone has a more exact date please post it! (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 20:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC))
 * Today, I deleted the date I put for Yue Huo's birth and death. The reason I did this is because some chinese records show his father didn't drown in the Yellow River flood, but several years later in 1122. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 17:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC))
 * I have again posted a date for Yue Huo, based on historical records for which I've cited a link to. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 08:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC))

Historical fact or fiction?
The problem with any modern Yue Fei info is most of it is based on popular chinese legends, which have, overtime, become accepted as historical fact. One good example would be the legend of Yue Fei and his mother floating down the river in a clay urn. Tangyin county, home of Yue Fei, is nearly 60 miles north from the Yellow River! The new info I've posted comes from a Chinese webpage. I believe this is the real deal. However, I am not going to mess with this page since my possible actions would surely be refuted by people who actually believe they know what happened to Yue Fei 903 years ago. I personally believe this page should be split into "Historical" and "Legend"!!!


 * Even in the more "historically plausible" history, the Yellow River floods Yue Fei's village. But since the Yellow River is some 60 miles south of Tangyin County it would be impossible for this to happen. However, a distributary of the Wei He, being the largest tributary of the Yellow River, runs by Tangyin County. There is a Henan map available on Encarta but you have to "ZOOM IN" towards Anyang at the top. This could explain why his family's crops were destroyed eventhough their village was so far away from the Yellow River. I've heard other sources say that it was raining very heavily just after Yue Fei's birth.


 * Although it supposedly flooded all of the time, I have yet to find any chinese records that concretely show that the Yellow River actually flooded in 1103. The closest I've come to is 1143, which further devistated local farmers on top of an earthquake. I don't remember the link, but I've read a source that said modern Kaifeng actually sits on 25 feet of silt from where it used to be (in reference to which dynasty I don't know).(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 01:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC))

Translation and another alias?
In a chinese XingYiQuan book from 1929 (Xing2 Yi4 Quan2 Shu4 Jiang3 Yi4), I have come across the following phrase "岳忠武王形意拳要訣" as a title of one of the chapters. This chapter appears to be about Yue Fei being the founder of Xingyiquan, but as I read those characters they say "yue4 zhong1 wu3 wang2 xing2 yi4 quan2 yao4 jue2" or "General Yue Zhong founded xingyiquan". Anyone know if 岳忠 is another name used for Yue Fei generally, or is this a one-off use? -- Medains 07:19, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 忠, zhōng = Loyalty, devotion, fidelity. I'm guessing that they were calling him "Loyal Yue" because of his loyalty to the Song Empire. It sounds like a nickname.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 01:24, 4 August 2006 (UTC))
 * Well, actually ancient Chinese emperors, officials and generals were given honorable titles after their death. 忠武 is such a title for Yue Fei, which means "loyal and brave". 王 means "king". Took 06:40, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yue Fei's offically recognized posthumous name was Wumu (武穆). In the martial world, he is known as "King Wumu". (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 10:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC))
 * 忠武 is another one. See the Chinese wikipedia article. Took 22:04, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:MilHist Assessment
This article is more than just a good start, but there is a lot of work to be done. There's a picture, which is a great touch. And there are sections touching on every element of his life. But each section is quite short and could really use some expansion. I realize that Yueh Fei is not *quite* as well-known and famous and important as Guan Yu, but if you take a look at how much has been written on him, I am sure there is more than can be said about Yue Fei as well. LordAmeth 01:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * As I wrote above, its hard to distinguish between Fact or Fiction. Most modern Yue Fei info is based off of myths that have been excepted as fact. There is more fictional information available than factual. Battle-wise, not all of his confrontations have been posted in english online. Unless a person knows Chinese they are stuck with spotty accounts of his military prowess.


 * The info that I added about his martial arts teachers and the alternate history of his father surviving the flood is the most in-depth, "realistic" info about his personal life that I have ever seen on the english net. I got this information with the help of General Zhaoyun, founder of the "China History Forum". He pointed me in the direction of certain chinese websites with a wonderful collection of info about Yue Fei's early life.


 * One chinese website I came across, which I had to translate with Bable Fish, even tried to explain his personality, but it was just speculation. Actually, the Yue Fei article on Chinese wikipedia has other information about him, but is less extenstive (length wise) about his life. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:42, 11 August 2006 (UTC))

Battles
It has been said that Yue Fei won over 120 battles, but I've yet to find many references to his battles. This site lists a "Battle of Yancheng" is which he fought the larger army of Wanyan Zongbi and won - amoungst mentions of other military successes. The List of Chinese battles lists only 3 battles in the Song Dynasty period - this surely must be addressed! -- Medains 14:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * General Zhaoyun, founder of the "China History Forum", has posted a long and detailed history of the Song Dynasty. CLICK HERE!. Later in this same history, he gives a detailed personal and battle history for Yue Fei. CLICK HERE!. (In fact, he is the one who supplied me with the information about Yue Fei's spear teacher Chen Guang.) I would have written a much longer section of his battle history, but it is so complex and I think my hands would fall off before I was finished. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC))

Yue Fei's biographies
Yue Fei has two biographies, one historical and one fictional. The historical biography was compiled in 1345 along with the “History of the Song”, which is one of the Twenty-Four Histories. It is called Yue Fei Zhuan (岳飞传 – "Yue Fei Biography"). The second, a fictional biography, was originally written between the years 1661-1735. It is called Shuo Yue Quan Zhuan (說岳全傳 - "Speak Yue's Entire Biography"). This has its own page on Chinese Wikipedia.

I think these should be added to the article. But I’m too busy to add it myself. So I’m writing this in the hopes that someone will do it for me. For more information about the biographies, see my article on Zhou Tong (monk), Yue Fei's archery teacher. If you go to Zhou Tong (monk) you can read the full historical biography (Chinese only). I used an internet translator as my Chinese SUCKS!

I want to stress that the "historical" biography does NOT mention Eagle Claw or any other kind of boxing style. It just comments on how good of an archer Yue Fei was. The "fictional" biography does NOT mention Eagle Claw either. It is important to note that this book was written from popular folktales that were common among the people of the day. Since Eagle Claw is not mentioned, this might lead some to believe that Eagle claw was not created until centuries after Yue Fei's death.(Ghostexorcist 21:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC))

Qin Hui (!)
the "Qin hui" 秦晖 of 1955 is the not same "Qin hui" 秦檜 of song dynasty! 秦晖, a honorable historian and intellectual of the communist China is rollling in his grave! mis-identified as the name synomynous to traitor in the Chinese culture! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.199.79.107 (talk) 02:14, 22 December 2006 (UTC).


 * What are you getting upset about? I can tell you that the Qin Hui article you are referring to was written long after this one was. One of the original authors opened a link with Qin Hui's name so if a future article was written about him; it would automatically link back to this one. But it seems an article about the modern Qin Hui was written before the ancient Qin Hui. Calm down.(Ghostexorcist 02:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC))

Because I am the legit descendents of Qin Hui. My family was even persecuted for this during the cultural revolution

Tattoo and related
http://www.ty.gov.cn/ReadNews.asp?NewsID=355 and http://dskb.hangzhou.com.cn/20050801/ca1039762.htm The tattoo is 尽忠报国, as indicated at the shrine. The correct pronunciation is "jìn zhōng bào guó" which translates to, literally or colloquially, to "serve the country with utmost loyalty" The previously mentioned 精忠报国 has been removed unless someone feels that it is in error.

Some minor points for attention

 * In Family section "According to Yue Fei's biography" - which of the 3 bios?
 * There's a big gap where that are no in-line citations (from the end of the bios to the start of film), need to add a load (probably some the previously cited bios will be repeated several times)
 * I keep seeing the claim of 120+ battles won, surely there must be a list of his battles somewhere that could be checked? (I suspect his participation in many occurred before he was commanding, and therefore less notable - a list of notable battles would be great though)
 * List of martial arts - the bracketed names are probably not needed for those that have articles.
 * Folk legend citation - whilst these are legends, so verifiability is not too much of an issue, they still need references to where they've been published. Most of the orally transmitted ones must have been around long enough for someone to have published it someplace :)
 * The stuff about the planned Yue Fei movie is probably more appropriate on a gossip column... maybe this could be cut down to a single reference. (Since when the movie comes out then it will just be cut to a movie reference anyway)
 * Add sources to reference section - looks odd having sources then references.

There's been a lot of good work done on this article, I'm sure that the china and milhist project guys would appreciate a note to request re-classification. -- Medains 10:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The amount of conflicting information about Yue Fei’s early life is crazy. The well known story of how his father drowned in the flood is actually from Yue’s 2nd bio (1661-1735), which is a wuxia fiction that a lot of people take as fact. However, Yue’s 1st bio (1345) mentions the river flood, but it alludes to the fact that Yue's father survived the flood because he he praises the boy for attending to Zhou Tong's grave. I am unaware what Yue’s 3rd bio (1924) says about his early life as I can’t read Chinese very well and I’ve only read translated sections of it about his martial training. I know that parts of his early life are mentioned in Qing Dynasty documents written in the areas that he lived. The Chinese net has lots of info about him too, but I am unaware of where the info comes from and if it is verifiable. I have deleted the "Sources" section because the books listed are already in the "References".


 * I don't know enough about his "historical" battles, so I won't be able to expand these sections. His 2nd bio has lots of info about his battles, which I recognize on this page, but the bio's author mixed in so much folklore stuff that it's hard to distinguish between fact and fiction.(Ghostexorcist 21:09, 25 January 2007 (UTC))


 * This is a secton from Yue's 1st bio (1345). The area in bold is what his father (who supposedly died in the flood according to the wuxia fiction) says to him: "少負气節，沉厚寡言，家貧力學，尤好【左氏春秋】、孫吳兵法. 生有神力，未冠，挽弓三百斤，弩八石. 學射与周侗，盡其術，能左右射. 侗死，溯望設祭于其冢. 父義之，曰：“汝為時用，其徇國死義乎. "


 * "'He had honor and self-respect from his youth, and he was serious and quiet. Despite his family's poverty, he was studious, and particularly favored the Zuo Zhuan edition of the Spring and Autumn Annals and the strategies of Sun Tzu and Wu Qi. He had supernatural power and even before his adulthood, he was able to use a bow that required a force of 300 Catty and use a sling that fired eight stones. He learned archery from Zhou Tong. He learned everything he could from Zhou, and he could fire from both hands. After Zhou's death, he would annually offer sacrifices to Zhou at Zhou's tomb. His father praised him for his faithfulness and said, 'When you become used, you will serve the state well and die with righteousness.' '"


 * --This was translated by another wikipedia user (Ghostexorcist 21:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC))

Improvements
I've made some drastic improvements to the page. This includes new, verifiable material about his life, A LOT of citations and several pictures. However, it still needs work. I plan on expanding the martial arts section. Or I could just link it to my article about the Military and civilian combat arts of Zhou Tong. I've also increased the article's rating to "B-class". (Ghostexorcist 23:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC))


 * The lead needs to be expanded. I'll let someone else try to summarize the article. I'd rather dig for and find the material instead of summarizing it! (Ghostexorcist 06:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC))

Defunct Hero Status
I remember from a while ago when they down-graded Yue Fei's hero status because the Jurchen/Manchu people that he fought against are now considered ethnically "Chinese". I would love to add this very important info to the page, but I can’t find a good enough source to support the claim. Could someone help me find some material on this subject. An article from a Chinese newspaper would be great, but my Chinese is horrible. (Ghostexorcist 00:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC))


 * Yes, his status in the PRC is that of a 民族英雄, or an ethnic hero, and he is considered a hero of the Han Chinese only, and not all of China. I don't believe this is true of the ROC, though. For example, they have naval ships named after national heros, Yue Fei among them (others being Zheng He, Ban Chao, Zhang Qian, Qi Jiguang, and Koxinga). --Yuje 01:46, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * 民族英雄 means national hero. Citation needed if you advocate that hye is not considered a hero. --Sumple (Talk) 02:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Official History vs What Could Have Actually Happened
In official history of the Song Dynasty, Qin Hui was the declared villain in the saga. But was he really? Or was he just trying to please his boss by carrying out his wishes? What wouuld a minister gain from this execution of a general? What would the emperor stand to lose should the war be won? It is very obvious that the ultimate villain should have been the emperor, but that obviously could not have been mentioned in the Song history. However, if Yue Fei had not obeyed him and rescued the old emperor and crown prince from Kai Feng, history would have been re-written. This emperor would be seen as no better than Sui Yang Ti. But well, as it is no one would or could take up Qin Hui's case for the next nine hundred years. And Yue Fei either selfishly or stupidly chose to martyr himself to become an immortal Confucianist hero rather than save his country.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chaconne Passacaglia (talk • contribs) 09:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC).


 * This is not a forum, so don't speculate about what may or may not have happened. Feel free to contribute to the page. (Ghostexorcist 11:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC))


 * Well, the whole problem with this page is that it is a random collection of quotes from (doubtful) sources. As a way to understand what really happened (or can be realistically assumed by historans) this page is well-nigh worthless. Laca 14:49, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Which sources are doubtful? If you can do better, update it. If not, stop complaining. (Ghostexorcist 18:54, 13 May 2007 (UTC))


 * Sources for a legendary hero are all doubtful - but at least they are sources! :) Verifiability is the biggest problem but is unlikely to be resolved any time soon, so as long as we ensure that we do have sources then we're improving the article for later readers.  If you can verifiably dispute the veracity of a source, please speak up and give specifics. -- Medains 08:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Clumps of quotations
I'm trying to squish all of the large clumps of random book quotations into fluid paragraphs. I've already finished 95% of the martial arts section and I plan on doing the one about his death and his martial training next. Then I'll do his early life stuff. (Ghostexorcist 08:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC))


 * I still need to take care of the rest of the book quotations. I've just been too busy to do it. (Ghostexorcist 00:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC))

Problem editing page
For some reason I am having problems editing the page. I have an active user account and I can edit any page I want except for this page. My last edit was a test and I cannot revert it back. (74.129.187.173 07:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC))

Six principles
I've editted these for readability - even changing the "title" of one. I'm guessing that the titles are translations, so hopefully I've kept true to the meaning. Some of these are principles found in more modern forces (the British during the Napoleonic wars valued training highly and the leadership were strongly against pillage, knowing that they needed the good will of the locals) and it might be possible to find articles that describe these principles thoroughly and add some linking. -- Medains 09:02, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Reference Explosion
There's a lot of references here - sometimes multiple references for a single statement. It's good that we have so many references, but citing multiple references for one sentence makes the reference list huge and not look very relevant to the material. It might be worth trimming some references, picking the "best" reference for the statement, to make the reference list shorter and more directly relevant.

For example the statement "He taught this qigong to his soldiers to help keep their bodies strong and well-prepared for battle." is worth referencing, but I'd go with "A Tooth from the Tiger's Mouth: How to Treat Your Injuries with Powerful Healing Secrets of the Great Chinese Warrior" over "Qigong Meditation: Embryonic Breathing" as the reference, since the latter seems to have less relevance to Yue Fei from the title.

Reference 57 and 60 (at the time of comment) are also the same reference (which I'd fix if I had more time atm) :) -- Medains 09:17, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


 * In regards to the source that states Yue taught his soldiers qigong, the majority of that info comes from the "Qigong Meditation" book. I've taken care of the duplicate citation on 57 and 60. (Ghostexorcist 19:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC))