Talk:Yuengling/Archive 1

Missing References
References 11 and 12 are broken links. 208.125.99.19 (talk) 18:27, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

"America's Oldest Brewery
I removed the following line from the opening paragraph:

"Yuengling's trademarked phrase "America's Oldest Brewery" refers to the U.S. only, as the Canadian brand Molson, founded in 1786, is the oldest in North America."

I understand the argument against using the term "America" and "USA" synonymously, but the fact of the matter is that the term "America" is almost always used to refer to the USA in the anglophone world. Given that fact, as well as the context the motto is given in, it's clear to the common reader that the motto does in fact only refer to the oldest brewery in the USA. Such a clarification in the first paragraph really isn't necessary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Serotrance (talk • contribs) 02:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I think it is important to mention the brewery's slogan, "America's Oldest Brewery". Considering the ambiguity of "America/American" on an international project such as this, I think it is also important to mention that Molson is older. Olessi (talk) 02:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

This is really dumb. The rational is that citizens of all the countries of North and South America (separate continents mind you) are Americans all, but (here's the stupid part) nobody's allowed to call themselves or be called Americans. It's the oldest brewery in America and I'm changing it now.

The "Lager" Convention
The Lager convention is well established in South Jersey (as I know from living there for over 20 years), but does not extend up into central or North Jersey. Order a Lager in New Brunswick and you'll get a funny look, accompanied by, "which kind of lager."

Now if they'd only start distributing in Michigan, I'd be a happy beer drinker and could ditch my steady diet of Rolling Rocks.

I don't know of any citation for this, but I'm from North-Central Pennsylvania and I know for sure that as far west as Mansfield or Wellsboro and as far north even as Corning and Elmira New York if you order a "lager", there's no ambiguity - they'll bring you a Yuengling. The "from below York to above State College" could easily be extended to the New York State border. It may also be worth a mention that their latest radio advertising campaign focuses on the "lager" moniker - you hear a conversation between a patron and a bar tender with the patron ordering "a Lager" and the bar tender just saying "Nice" followed by a commentator talking about how "there's only one true Lager". I'm sure this is just an attempt at branding and can't be taken as evidence of any real cultural phenomenon, but it might be worth a mention. --M0nstr42 15:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

For the past 20 years I've always known it as "Lager" and the bar tenders have almost always said "nice" so I don't think it's an attempt to brand it as "Lager". Correct me if I'm wring, but the cases, bottles, and cans all have LAGER written towards the bottom, and the letters are larger then the word Yuengling. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.150.236.72 (talk) 21:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation
The article currently reads 'The name Yuengling is pronounced in the United States as "Ying-Ling."' I am unaware of Yuengling being a surname outside of the US, let alone having different pronunciations. Since this is about an American beer brewed by an American company owned by Americans with an anglicized name, "in the United States" sounds gratuitous. Olessi 9 July 2005 03:00 (UTC)
 * Well... it's not a surname, but it is a German word. But you have a point.&mdash;Sean &kappa;. + 9 July 2005 03:34 (UTC)

Looking at the Yuengling websight, it's an anglicised version of their name. "Jungling" mit einer Umlaut.

Actually... Yuengling is a surname. My last name is Yuengling, and I recently moved from Pottsville, PA to North Carolina. I have met a lot of people that pronounce it "Yingling", but I pronounce my name "Youngling". And you also have a point, "Yingling" is just an anglicized pronunciation. 24.163.37.133 20:26, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I have replaced the phrase which gives the casual observer an incorrect impression of Chinese origin which had been removed some time ago. Seeing the word Yuengling or even more the pronounciation Yingling myself (and others too I confronted with this issue), are more akin to make the connotation with China rather than with Germany, due to the fact that German words starting with Y are very uncommon. I believe this issue is worth to be mentioned here. LHOON 15:27, 25 February 2006 (UTC)  25 February 2006

Jungling does not mean "young man" in german. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.189.107.70 (talk • contribs)


 * Langenscheidt says differently. However, the meaning of David's surname is not particularly relevant to the article, and I'm fine with its removal. Olessi 17:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Yuengling Ice Cream
I'm surprised there is no mention of Yuengling selling Ice Cream for a number of years, I use to buy Yuengling ice cream as a kid. Rumour has it that they went into the ice cream business to survive Prohibition. I know they don't sell ice cream anymore, but does anyone know what years they produced it and stopped selling it? This should be noted. Thanks.....

User:Scottfisher


 * The Yuengling dairy was built in 1920, indeed as you say because there was precious little else that the company could sell other than rather nasty near-beer during Prohibition. However at some point after Prohibition a separate branch of the family managed the dairy from the brewery, and I understand that the two operated rather autonomously.  Apparently there were business disagreements, and ultimately the dairy was shuttered in 1985.  NTK 20:37, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Boothy443
I don't think you know much about Yuengling and Pottsville.

Thanks

EMAIL
Scotty

From : Jay Holstein Sent : Friday, August 19, 2005 12:15 PM To :  scottfisher Subject : RE: Our Heritage! MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: [64.4.56.200] X-Originating-Email: [XXXX@hotmail.com] X-Sender: XXXX@hotmail.com .... Return-Path: XXXX@hotmail.com Mount Carbon Brewery was never part of Yuenglings. However, Yuengling bought the rights to use the Mount Carbon (Bavarian) name and label when Mount Carbon Brewery went out of business in 1977. Yuengling initially brewed Mount Carbon for a short time but eventually abandoned it.

From: "Scott Fisher"

CC: scottfisher

Subject: Our Heritage! Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:03:09 +0000

Question: Wasn't the Mount Carbon Brewery a part of Yuengling at one time? I need to add this pertinent info if so to the article...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuengling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt_carbon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottsville%2C_Pennsylvania http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuylkill_County%2C_Pennsylvania

From : Jay Holstein  Sent : Friday, August 19, 2005 12:15 PM To :  scottfisher Subject : RE: Our Heritage! Scotty


 * Mount Carbon Brewery was never part of Yuenglings. However, Yuengling bought the rights to use the Mount Carbon (Bavarian) name and label when Mount Carbon Brewery went out of business in 1977.  Yuengling initially brewed Mount Carbon for a short time but eventually abandoned it.

Jay

Thanks Scotty

Change in Brewing Process

I have heard that in possibly 1999 Yuengling made some kind of brewing change, either to speed up the process or make it less expensive. The result was a palpable change in taste. Many people from southeast PA agree Yuengling used to taste better. Not sure what they did. Maybe someone could step up and look into this more and add some info to the main page here on wiki.

Boothy443 did it again with his attempted destruction of this Yuengling page, not knowing facts, his edits show it: (cur) (last) 2005-08-18 16:24:01 Boothy443 (formatting, and removed mt Carbon Brewery as it is a town and has nothing to do with the operations of Yuengling)Boothy443

Had to fix it up again, LOL cur) (last) 2005-08-20 02:42:58 Scottfisher m '''(Yuengling bought the rights to use the Mount Carbon (Bavarian) name and label when Mount Carbon Brewery went out of business in 1977. Yuengling initially brewed Mount Carbon for a short time but even)''' Scotty

Geographical Focus
The article mentions Philadelphia twice in reference to Yuengling’s popularity and entrenchment in local culture. I would offer that at least the eastern half of Pennsylvania recognizes the "Lager" convention. Indeed, since neither Iron City nor Penn Pilsner (dominant local brews in the western part of the state) have a "lager" in the title, that you've got a pretty good chance of the convention holding as far as Pittsburgh. Certainly, in State College (almost the geographical center of the state) the "lager" convention is well-established. Regardless, the focus on Philadelphia as the focal point of Yuengling fandom is disingenuous. Prior to recent attempts to move into more markets (notably NYC), Yuengling was standard fare throughout Pennsylvania. Focusing on the state's most prominent city does a disservice to the throngs of Yuengling devotees in Pennsylvania's rural environs.

I know for a fact that Yuengling Black and Tan is ia mixture of Lord Chesterfield Ale and Porter. The meaning of black and tan is ale and lager together, and in this case Yuengling's only true ale is Lord Chesterfield.
 * Hi WoodenPints. Had a black and tan a couple of months ago, and I believe it still says on the bottle that it is a blend of premium and porter, not chesty & porter. This is directly from the FAQ on Yuengling's website:
 * When were Black & Tan, Lager, and Light introduced?
 * Black & Tan was originally introduced by combining our Porter and Chesterfield Ale. This was called Half and Half. Around 1986 our Brewmaster felt that 60% Porter and 40% Premium was a much better blend and started producing Black & Tan. Lager, an old recipe that we have re-introduced, was re-produced in 1987. Yuengling Light was first brewed in 1986.
 * So if you haven't had B&T in twenty years, you would be right. NTK 20:48, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Old German?
I found no evidence that Yuengling ever had an Old German brand - that is produced by Pittsburgh Brewing Company. Does anyone have anything to back up that they had one that was discontinued in 1994? A web search turns up old cans with the name Queen City Brewing Company, Cumberland, MD on them, and says it was sold to Pittsburgh when that brewery closed down in 1974. Spalding 02:13, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I did not find anything connecting Yuengling with Old German either. Olessi 05:04, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I attended the brewery's tour on 20 February 2006, and the brewery clearly had "Old German" listed among the various brews the company has produced. Olessi 04:15, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * You deserve a barnstar or something, Olessi, for a Wikipedean going over and above the normal methods to seek out the truth. Now I'm really interested in the relationship to that other Old German - maybe that wasn't really a trademark, but I wonder if it was the same logo?  More beer research is needed!  Spalding 20:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Here is a bottle they had on display at the plant in Pottsville. Yuengling Old German. Olessi 19:52, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Rename
Olessi has suggested that the name of the article should be Yuengling Brewery. I fully agree. The article is about the brewery rather than any one product. And Yuengling Brewery is what the company currently calls itself. SilkTork 20:11, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Move completed. Olessi 22:58, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well i have to say that i totaly disagree with this move. First of the reason for the move is incorect, their is no beer called Yuengling, while the term Yuengling is commonly used for its lager, which is called Yuengling Tradational Lager, and this usage is primarley used outside of it core Philadelpahia area where it is normaily just refered to as Lager, the Yuengling bran is promently displayed on the majory of it products in much the same way. Second the term Yuengling Brewery is also incorect, their is no such brewer/company as Yuengling Brewery, if were are going to identify the article by it's brewer/company, thenn the name of the article shold be, D. G. Yuengling and Son (or more commonly know as Yuengling which is also how the company it's self refers to it self), which is correct name of the brewer, at best the term Yuengling could only best refer to plant in Pottsville, which only one of three plants, the others being in Port Carbon, PA and Tampa, Florida, that it operates. I must have missed the post the first time it ame up, but this article needs to be moaved back, perferably, or moved to D. G. Yuengling and Son. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:13, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Your preferred term "Yuengling" only seems to be used by the company in an informal sense, and the current Wiki naming consensus for brewing companies is to use the "official name" of the company (see Category:American breweries). "D.G. Yuengling & Son, Inc., America’s Oldest Brewery" is the terminology used in the company's press releases:, , . The company does indeed also use "Yuengling Brewery" to refer to itself (and not just the Pottsville location): , , (again). Lew Bryson's book Pennsylvania Breweries uses the "D.G. Yuengling & Son" in its description of the company. There are numerous options- "Yuengling", "Yuengling Brewery", "D.G. Yuengling & Son", "D.G. Yuengling & Son, Inc.", "D.G. Yuengling & Son, Inc., America’s Oldest Brewery" etc. "D.G. Yuengling & Son, Inc." might be the safest bet. Anyone have preferences? Olessi 02:50, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


 * If it ius by the name of the brewer then my prefrence is D.G. Yuengling & Son, otherwise i would put my first perfrence of it going back to Yuengling. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 07:30, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem to use D.G. Yuengling & Son, as long as there is a redirect from Yuengling, as this is what most wikipedia users will type in first, without knowing the official name in many cases. LHOON 11:24, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * LSo are we going to rename the article or what? --Boothy443 | trácht ar 05:30, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Move completed. Olessi 14:31, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Factual Questions
Olessi, I saw that you added a line to the first paragraph that states, "Yuengling Brewery of Pottsville, Schuylkill County, Pennsylvania, is the oldest family brewers of beer in the United States, having been established in 1829, and is one of the largest brewers in the country." I don't debate the first part of this, but I'm not sure that it's safe to say that Yuengling is one of the "largest brewers in the country." Don't get me wrong, I love their brew, but it's fairly regional -- it's not available outside a few Mid-Atlantic states (the PA stuff) and some Southeastern ones (the FL brewery). They don't market it in the rest of the country, and as a company they seem quite comfortable with this. I think that to call them "one of the largest brewers" is a pretty strong statement, and requires some substantiation under these circumstances. I am therefore going to remove it, but if you can find a source to back it up, feel free to add it back in. Kadin2048 22:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * By area of product availability Yuengling is not one of the the largest, but it is one of the largest by volume. While the company certainly doesn't compare to macro-brewers like A-B, Coors, or Miller, Yuengling does have the volume to be considered one of the largest out of more than 1,400 breweries in the country. #5 in volume (2003),, ; listed as 5th in size (July 31, 2005). #6 (2004). I haven't found a listing for 2005, but I haven't seen any information indicating Yuengling has dropped out of the top ten. Olessi 01:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Chinese?
I put the reference again to the false Chinese origin of the name. I believe it is worth to be mentioned here. For those who first hear names like Yuengling, Yungling or Yingling, these have rather a Chinese connection than a German one, also because there are no words in German language (except foreign loanwords) starting with the letter Y. The effect is even stronger if the syllables are split (Yueng Ling).

Nevertheless, I like the brew a lot and look forward to have one again on my next visit to the area! :-)

LHOON 08:34, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * No, it's German, but was Anglicized. In the original, no doubt it was Jüngling.  "J" in German sounds like the English "Y".  Afalbrig 09:58, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Citation needed
I add the Citation needed template to "Originally known as "Pottsville Porter," this beer is notable for being the only porter available in the world from the late 60's to the early 80's.", as the following links indicate Stegmaier and Guinness produced porters during the 1970s. I have not found a link suggesting that Yuengling was the only producer of porter in the world during the late 1970s.

From Brewing Techniques.com: "By the early 1970s, only Yuengling and Stegmaier were producing porter on a regular basis. It would take another decade for porter to be widely accepted again, this time as a craft brewery offering."

Michael Jackson mentions that "In 1820, the double was renamed Guinness Extra Stout Porter, and at some point the triple "X" gained the soubriquet Foreign Extra Stout. In 1974, the "single," still known as Porter. was dropped." Olessi 12:39, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Samuel Smith reintroduced their porter in 1979. Olessi 12:47, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Reason for deleting wikidate overlinkage
My compliments on a very well-written and interesting article!

The date-link change is per Wikipedia style guidelines, quoted verbatim from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29#Avoid_overlinking_dates


 * Avoid overlinking dates


 * If the date does not contain a day and a month, date preferences will not work, and square brackets will not respond to your readers' auto-formatting preferences. So unless there is a special relevance of the date link, there is no need to link it. This is an important point: simple months, years, decades and centuries should only be linked if there is a strong reason for doing so. Make only links relevant to the context for the reasons that it's usually undesirable to insert low-value chronological links.


 * Usage of links for date preferences


 * year only. So 1974 → 1974. Generally, do not link unless they will clearly help the reader to understand the topic.
 * month only. So April → April. Generally, do not link
 * century. So 20th century → 20th century. Generally, do not link
 * decade. So 1970s → 1970s. Generally, do not link (Including an apostrophe [1970's] is incorrect)
 * year and month. So April 1974 → April 1974 Generally, do not link
 * new year and month. So April 2000 → April 2000 Generally, do not link unless they will clearly help the reader to understand the topic. Presently, articles only exist for combinations from the year 2000 to current
 * day of the week (with or without other date elements). So Tuesday → Tuesday. Generally, do not link.''

On a separate note, it's better to avoid the passive voice than not. The article says "Yuengling was officially registered as the oldest brewery of the United States". Where? Who? What entity "registered" it More specific and encyclopedic to say, "The U.S. Library of Congress (or whatever) registered Yuengling as the oldest brewery of the United States". --Tenebrae 18:59, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Registered where?
My thanks to Olessi for adding citation to the line about the brewery being registered as America's oldest. I have no doubt this is true. But the citation, which is the Yuengling official site, says only, "The brewery is placed on the national and state registers as America's oldest brewery during the American Bicentennial." Honestly, I don't know of any national register of breweries, and any company's own site is bound to have a little bit of PR hype. Is there any outside documentation of where Yuengling is registered? Library of Congress? Or what? Thanks -- Tenebrae 03:45, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It does not say that it is on any nationaly register of breweries, considering that their is none that i am aware of anyway. Normaly when it is mentioned in the context of age or histoic value, it is usllay equated to be on the National Register of Historic Places and it's corrspoding state register. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 05:38, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Okey-doke, and thanks for the response. If that's the case, I hope someone can confirm whether that's so or not. Right now, the article is very vague on that point, and I wonder if that one point is just PR hype and not completely accurate. -- Tenebrae 22:05, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The brewery is listed at the National Register of Historic Places (added 1985, which contradicts the brewery's site). This 1993 case of the U.S. Department of Commerce (Patent and Trademark Office) discusses Yuengling's attempt to trademark "America's Oldest Brewery" for usage on promotional products, unsuccessfully opposed by Molson. Olessi 22:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Cool! Thanks for those terrific citations! Man, you're good!
 * I'll work them into the article now. Thanks -- Tenebrae 14:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

"References" vs. "External links"
Hi, all. The reason I've changed "External links" to "References" comes from these sections of Cite_sources, quoted verbatim below. (Please note in Item 2 below that the italics are theirs, and not inserted by me.) Thanks!

1)
 * Complete citations in a "References" section


 * Complete citations, also called "references," are collected at the end of the article under a ==References== heading. Under this heading, list the comprehensive reference information as a bulleted (*) list, one bullet per reference work.

2)
 * External links/Further reading


 * The ==External links== or ==Further reading== section is placed after the references section, and offers books, articles, and links to websites related to the topic that might be of interest to the reader, but which have not been used as sources for the article. Where there is a references section, editors may prefer to call the external links section "further reading," because the references section may also contain external links, and the further reading section may contain items that are not online.

So sources used to write an article go under "References", and other helpful citations go under "External links" if they're linkable and "Further reading" if they're not online. — Tenebrae 14:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Vitamin Y
Regarding the nickname of "Vitamin Y", here are some links: It seems like most references simply refer to all of Yuengling's products, as opposed to a specific beer (currently mentioned in the article as the lager). There are also numerous postings on fora and personal websites mentioning the phrase in connection with Yuengling. Olessi 16:50, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * , refers simply to all Yuengling products as "Vitamin Y"
 * another general reference
 * referring specifically to Premium
 * , general reference in Ale Street News
 * , general reference at ''New York Press'


 * Cool! Let's split the work: I've adjusted the Vitamin Y reference and made it the first item in a Trivia section, following a section pattern used throughout Wikipedia. If you could go in and add, say, two of the most authoritative footnotes for it (just copy-paste the "ref" and "/ref" stuff at a sample footnote and change the pertinent info), that'd be great. Good researching! -- Tenebrae 21:06, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Oki, I added two such references. I removed the "Chinese Lumberjack" statement, as Yahoo and Google searches both brought up minimal hits for it. Olessi 22:29, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And it is good working with you! I've tidied up the footnotes some, and will-ya-take-a-look-at-this, we've got a pretty good, informative little article here! Good Wiki-ing, buddy! -- Tenebrae 23:58, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Former Stroh's Brewery in Tampa
I've always understood the Tampa brewery to be once owned by Anheuser-Busch (see Busch Gardens), which was closed I believe in the mid-80s. Did Stroh's operate this brewery between the end of A-B's ownership and the beginning of Yuengling operations?

Boston Brewing Company
The reference in the opening paragraph to Boston Brewing Company, and the fact that it would be the oldest brewery in America if it hadn't closed in the 70's makes no sense and is totally inaccurate.

In reality, while the recipe Jim Koch used to create Samual Adams Boston Lager was a variant on an old family recipe dating to the 1860's, the Boston Brewing Company wasn't founded until 1985, and in fact was simply a brand name as the beer was brewed under contract by another brewery.
 * I have removed the false information. Olessi 22:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

"Chase Killer"
Recent edits to the article state that Yuengling is known as "Chase Killer" in Minersville, Pennsylvania. It is referenced through a currently invalid link to the Yuengling site (although I do not recall it mentioning the nickname when I read the article when the link was valid), as well as this private site. The information presented so far does not seem reliable or noteworthy enough for inclusion here. Anyone else ever hear this phrase in common usage? Olessi 22:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

America's oldest brewery
Yuengling is the oldest brewery in America, it does not claim to be the oldest in Canada. Why mention the M word? Is Yuengling mentioned in M's citation? It would be nice if it was changed in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.82.166.252 (talk)


 * "America" is an ambiguous term and does not automatically infer the United States. Olessi 18:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * What's the "M word", anyway?


 * Molson. There was a lawsuit. Yuengling won.  Coemgenus 21:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)