Talk:Yume Nikki/Archive 1

The state of this article
There was a bit of a mess that was best resolved by recreating this article.

See, Yume Nikki was AfD'd and deleted twice due to sourcing concerns. I made an userfied copy for one of its authors, and it received several edits. Then a hitherto unrelated editor copypasted it to Yume nikki, and that copy received several edits as well. Someoneanother asked me to resolve any possible attribution problems, and for a chance to fix the problems behind the previous deletions.

I crammed everything into this page's history, which I strongly hope to be an acceptable solution. I then left the article standing for SomeoneAnother: the fact that he started the second AfD speaks for his judgement, and his plan sounds feasible. It's unorthodox, but the game's unorthodox. (I could've userfied the article for him, but I'm not about to make this any more complicated! A bot already tagged one copy as a possible copyvio from Wikibin!)

I recommend backing off for a few days to let him work. Jumping straight at prodding or a third AfD would cause commotion and hurt our chances of gaining a valid article. Discussion on this talk page would be a good thing, but if anyone uses writing quality as an argument for deletion I'll come over there and slap that person with a fish. Thank you. --Kiz o r  18:59, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to nominate this article for deletion as I think notability has been established, but the sourcing still needs to be improved: the 'gameplay' and 'disturbing elements' sections have no sources whatsoever. Robofish (talk) 21:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't forgotten the article, but the purchase of a new Wii alongside.. stuff IRL has chewed through my time. I have found a pretty in-depth post from Lewis Denby on his personal blog here, which is the analysis of the game this article desperately needs. Once the non-neutrality has been teased out, that source will enable me to tinker with what's here, remove any original research and use it to reword and restructure what's left. Someoneanother 22:20, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Embarassing.. Denby's blog is the Honest Gamers review but with an extra paragraph at the bottom, so I've just removed the Honest Gamers citation. I just skimmed through the blog post without checking the other, so coming across the new text threw me. Despite that, the post (including the new paragraph which is in itself useful) contains a lot of material for rewriting gameplay and themes, though they might end up being merged once I get further through. Someoneanother 19:30, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Hey, folks. Can we get a decent citation on the fact that an area is modeled directly after EarthBound? The one guide references the area with NES-style graphics, the overworld map, and the small sprites as the EarthBound area, but this doesn't actually look anything like EarthBound, which was on SNES, and had no overworld map. Maybe this area could be said to look a bit like Mother, which was the precursor to EarthBound on the NES, but given the fantasy setting and overworld map, I would say it bears a similarity much more to Dragon Warrior (which has a more or less identical menu screen to EarthBound). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.108.60.214 (talk) 14:51, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Needs the original website because it is one of the most reliable sources. Also, needs more citations from reliable game reviews. We can do this no problem. 74.194.224.252 (talk) 18:16, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done, I believe this to be Kikiyama's official website - http://www3.nns.ne.jp/pri/tk-mto/, someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Also, I'm going to look through some Japanese pages and see if I can possibly find reviews, fan-sites, etc. I don't know what I can do with them, hopefully citations, but I'm finding them here and there. If you want to find Japanese sites just type ゆめにっき into a search engine (like I had to tell you that) However, the Kanji for, "Dream Diary" is 夢日記. It will not pull up as many direct results and most results will be, literally, dream diaries.ACID MAISON (talk) 01:13, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

It would be awesome if certain people would stop deleting entire sections from this article before I have the time to add reference tags to them. Really, really awesome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.231.105.46 (talk) 01:30, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay. Although, it mentions several times on the edit page that content you add must be verifiable. It would be really, really awesome if you could cite reliable secondary sources in the first instance. Particularly with fan/community related information that is rarely reported on by the kind of sources we rely on. What are the references you have? Marasmusine (talk) 07:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I have no clue as of yet how to do any of that as of yet. This is a labor of love that I recreated this article with no prior knowledge of how to edit a Wiki page. I'm really tired of editors like you coming in and deleting entire sections of this article with no word of warning prior and with no effort to try and improve on content. Make some effort into improving on the article as a whole. In other words: "Please help improve this article by adding reliable references."68.231.105.46 (talk) 23:10, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Added many references. Hopefully there won't be a problem anymore. Also currently adding a Kotaku and GamePixie review that went unnoticed, trying to find some way to mention the great TV Tropes page on the game, or at least cite it. ACID MAISON (talk)
 * I know you'd like to have the fan sites mentioned in the article, but I must stress that we only do so if they have been covered by reliable secondary sources. As I mentioned above, this is a rare occurance. I see you've added citations, but these reference the fan sites and blogs themselves which do not qualify as reliable sources. Likewise, each of those remakes will need to be independently verifiable.
 * I'd be happy to improve the section on fan contrubutions, as you say, by adding reliable references. But as far as I can tell there aren't any.
 * I'm afraid TV Tropes doesn't meet WP:RS, but Kotaku is fine.
 * Also, if I may respond to your statement "This is a labor of love..."; please bear in mind our policy on ownership of articles. Marasmusine (talk) 20:06, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * What secondary resources are you wanting to verify a secondary resource? I admit that some of the fan content that has been posted should be taken off, and was more of a cram to expand upon the article in spades, fast. But I feel that to delete that entire section again would be extremely inappropriate on your part at this point. Consider that, thus far, the anonymity of the creator, Kikiyama, is highly disproportionate to the response this game has received and the culture that now surrounds it. As far as I know, the creator has done no interviews, and has said practically nothing about this game. The soundtrack alone could merit a section for it's uncanny resemblance to certain Earthbound and Silent Hill pieces and the undeniable influence it takes from those games, however none of that would be WP:V. There are hundreds of fan created works related in part to this franchise, none of it WP:V. But the site Madotsuki's Closet is roughly WP:V, and it covers enough of the game as a whole to be a continued source of research for the user. Surely it is worth mentioning. It now holds one of the few download links outside of Kikiyama's official website, and has an amazing wealth of knowledge and insight to the game which needs to be, at least, linked on this article. Instead of just saying that this article isn't up to standards dozens of times over, if you feel the contribs section needs to be purged and the information needs to be migrated into other sections of the article, by all means do so. For that matter, at some later time in date I myself will probably do so. I encourage you to put the amount of work I've done into this page, but highly discourage further mass deletion. Until I can go about translating the Kikiyama's site to search for other references, this is what we have to work with.
 * Aside from this mess, I would like to state that the following is all I would like from the further changes to this page:
 * Makes note of any location where you can assuredly download the English release of Yume Nikki.
 * Makes at least passing mention that fan created sequels have been modeled directly after Yume Nikki.
 * Holds enough content to not get AfD'd again.
 * The reason I hold my ground on these issues are solely because of fear that this article will get AfD'd at a later time.ACID MAISON (talk)

Maybe we can come to some kind of compromise. I'll tackle your first question first, as perhaps I wasn't clear on the usage. When using external sites, this might be for two different reasons: With the sites in question (M's Closet and KAKE-Bar): 1) these can almost certainly not be used as sources, as detailed at WP:V - specifically these are self-published sources (read WP:SPS). 2) is a possibility, and one would need reliable sources about those fan sites in order for us to mention them here.
 * 1) You're using it as a source for the article,
 * 2) Or you're writing about the external site within the article.

The usage of fan-site and fan remakes has been tackled at the Video games article guidelines, at WP:VG/EL. The concensus is that they are not appropriate content. I can perhaps bend that guideline: If you consider Madotsuki's Closet to be the best of the fan sites, and there's concensus amongst a wider group of editors, then I won't object to having it listed in the external links section.

Finally, I'll respond to your bullet points.
 * I partially agree: One download source other than the official page is appropriate, since the official page is not in english and the game is freeware. External links need to be kept to a minimum.
 * We can make passing mentions of the sequels if reliable publications have also done so.
 * I can reassure you that the chances of this article being deleted are low. The coverage at Kotaku, Gamertell and TIGSource is strong, and these are considered reliable sources. Therefore there's a strong case for notability and inclusion in the encyclopedia.

I don't want you to think I'm some lone nut who's got it in for you, so I'll post a request for comments at the video games wikiproject. Marasmusine (talk) 15:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm glad we're coming to a kind of consensus here, and think that the end result is that it's really improving the article as a whole. I'll get to work on what you've suggested and update soon give an update on this page when I'm able to.
 * ACID MAISON (talk • contribs) 23:21, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Okay, the Fan Contributions section still fails WP:V and I've exhausted my sources. I have left in the link to M's Closet as a compromise, but of course another editor may still remove this if they are performing WP:VG/EL cleanup. Marasmusine (talk) 22:24, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Sequels?
I've discovered evidence of two sequels, Yume 2kki and .flow, however i have failed to locate any other reliable sources rather than video footage on youtube. No point really unless you want to ad a section with a few sentences. Wolfantom (talk) 14:29, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
 * From what I recall, we've ran into a few problems relating to inclusion of (unofficial fan) sequels. Inclusion has potential issues in regards to verifiability due to the lack of reliable sources available; in addition, fan sequels such as Yume 2kki may not meet Wikipedia's notability criteria (after all, they were not made by the same author, and they merely have similarities in gameplay and art), and it is due to these policies that this article has been sent to Articles for Deletion numerous times. I think, given Wikipedia policy, these things are better left on other websites, such as the Yume Nikki Wikia. At least the current state of this article meets all of Wikipedia's policy requirements; it would be preferable if the status quo isn't changed too much. --  李博杰  &#124; —Talk contribs email 15:01, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Genre
Somebody has defined Yume Nikki on the English language page as a surreal horror. I don't feel this is accurate given that it was only ever defined as an "adventure game" (アドベンチャーゲーム) in the original Japanese. Defining Yume Nikki as Horror is making crude and sweeping generalisations about the style and nature of the game. 82.35.5.2 (talk) 12:14, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * However, the claim that the game is "psychedelic" isn't the best way to describe it either, as doing so would be original research. Though I am all open for alternatives to "surreal horror", I don't think calling the game "psychedelic" like in a recent edit is a good choice. --  李博杰  &#124; —Talk contribs email 15:56, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The game is self-evidently psychedelic (i.e. characterized by hallucinations, distortions of perception, altered states of awareness... it's unarguably set in a dream world and the lines between dream and reality become blurred in the ending) where as Horror denotes an intention by the maker to strive to elicit the emotions of fear, disgust and horror primarily, and that's not something that's ever explicitly been said. 'Surreal adventure game' is a good compromise. 82.35.5.2 (talk) 20:09, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds fine to me. --  李博杰  &#124; —Talk contribs email 05:18, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

UBOA
Should we mention UBOA? 67.174.105.246 (talk) 04:37, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

He already was mentioned. "Players explore the dreams of the character Madotsuki (窓付き?, lit. windowed). Travelling through her dreams, the player encounters surreal and sometimes disturbing scenes, such as being swallowed by a large red sewer-creature, meeting a disembodied head character known as Uboa (ウボァ?) and a full-screen rotating image of a girl with five arms." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.15.62.73 (talk) 13:27, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Playism-Games Link
I wanted to add a link for the Yume Nikki page at Playism-Games. At the moment it's probably the most western-friendly website to download Doujin PC games. In the case of Yume Nikki, it provides a user-friendly installer for the game; similar on how GOG.com packages their games to make them run smoothly on newer machines.

LSD Simulator link in See also section
Is this necessary? Other than sharing some themes, the two games have no connections, and I don't really see this type of thing anywhere else. AntiGravityMaster (talk) 20:11, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * If it can't be placed in prose (and I haven't even found articles comparing this to Undertale, which is way more similar), then it shouldn't exist as just a "See also" section. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 21:50, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Review Sourcing
hey, i'm pretty new to video game pages and not sure what types of review sources are legit for use in wiki - could someone please provide some pointers? Balle010 (talk) 14:00, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:VG/RS for dedicated video game sources. The reliable list there should basically answer everything. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 15:22, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * thank you, will read over Balle010 (talk) 19:00, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Madotsuki isn't a hikikomori
Made an edit. At no point in the game is there clear indication of why Madotsuki doesn't want to leave her bedroom. None of the major sources referenced I've checked in this page interpret her as so, either. Sokuseno (talk) 16:58, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Manga/light novel adaptations: "official"?
Having trouble deciding what the best terminology here is. RS variably refer to the manga and light novel adaptations as "official", "semi-official", or just "adaptations"/"spin-offs". PCGamer, I think, says they were made with Kikiyama's approval, but without their "direct involvement". At this point I have no clue if the article should use the word "official" or not, so I've been leaving it off just in case. Would like comments from anyone interested. Cheers! Bluecrystal004 (talk · contribs) 02:40, 21 September 2022 (UTC)