Talk:Yuri (genre)/Archive 2

GA-class
I believe it's time to start thinking about nominating this article for WP:GA. Kazu-kun, relax, I'm not looking at you. :P Anyone else's opinion, maybe? PS: I think my contributions to this article were minor enough to make me an acceptable reviewer candidate. --Koveras ☭ 10:50, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey! That was kinda rude =P Anyway, before WP:GA we need to think what to do with the list; I don't think an article with an embedded list will pass the nomination (though I'm not completely sure). Maybe we should create a separate article for the list. I actually was planing to work on that a few weeks ago, but I decided to rewrite this article first instead. Now that the work here is mostly done... what do you guys think? Shoud we make a separate list? Kazu-kun (talk) 17:03, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't see an embedded list being inherently a barrier to GA. After all, the list guidelines lay out how to create and style them. If they're depreciated, the MOS needs to reflect that. Personally, for something like this, unless article size is an issue I like to have the information all on one page, instead of having to click through to get the details. —Quasirandom (talk) 18:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I should make it clear that I'm not particularly opposed to having the list here. If you guys really think it's not an obstacle for further improvement of this article, then I'm totally fine with it. And I think Quasirandom has a point, btw. Kazu-kun (talk) 18:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Personally, I think the only obsticle for GA is the referencing of the rest of the items on the list. I've never done a GAC review, and only been through one, so I don't know how much of a problem not having finished that would be. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:32, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * We'll get it done before GAC.
 * On a related note, I have been thinking that new and therefore non-licensed series most likely will lack reviews. In such cases, if the yuri is subtext we can't do much about it; we need third-party sources (reviews) to source subtext. But if it's explicit, for example having a character stating her love for another female character, or having a lesbian sex scene, then I think a quotation or a comment from the relevant episode could work appropriately. What do you guys think? Kazu-kun (talk) 19:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * A primary source should theoretically do trick but I'm a bit uneasy about using them in an article on a genre rather than a particular anime. I'd say that if it doesn't have a secondary source backing its yuriness up, it shouldn't be on the list (but a category tag in the article about it should be alright). Alternatively, in obvious cases like ICE (which, by the way, is listed as yuri on ANN), a reference may be omitted (until a proper one is found, of course), as long as the article itself goes into detail about yuri relationships in the particular anime. Such entries should be tagged with an editor comment so that overzealous editors don't remove them on sight. ^^ --Koveras ☭ 21:05, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I was talking mostly about the second list, which include yuri as an additional element. There's header I included there for a better understanding of this concept. But the thing is that in these series yuri can't be considered a genre. If you wonder why we list these series... it's because yuri wasn't a genre at first, it was considered just a theme. Even today, yuri is used in Japan to describe both a genre focusing on love between women, as well as any woman/woman content in series that focuse on something else. Anyway, my point is that if I include a series such as Mnemosyne in the second list, it's because it shows explicit lesbian sex. I don't think I need more than primary source for that. Kazu-kun (talk) 21:36, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm not against inclusion of series which contain obvious lesbian scenes into the list, I'm just unwilling to use primary references here. What I was saying is that if the article on a particular anime contains details about yuri in it, it can be added to the list without a reference (at first, until a good secondary one is found). Otherwise, it should better wait until it does. That's all there is to my opinion. :) Btw, I haven't seen any "explicit lesbian sex" in Mnemosyne yet, at least, not in the first episode. %) --Koveras ☭ 06:57, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, pardon my rudeness, then, but ever since you've been ignoring me bugging you about FACing .hack//SIGN article for a year, I decided that you are not interested in such things anymore. :P About the list, I find that it is of appropriate size and styling in this case, so I don't really mind it much. It has to be completely referenced, though. --Koveras ☭ 18:54, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, we're working on the references. About .hack//Sign - it's not that I was ignoring you per se lol. Well, I just got stuck with that article. I need a reference I can't get my hands on, and I don't think it's up to FA as it is. Anyway, I'll give you the details on your talk page when I have some time; maybe we can work out something. Kazu-kun (talk) 19:08, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I was a bit afraid of this... XD I'm not sure it's ready yet.  It'd certainly be unique amongst GAs - I'm not sure that a genre article has been nominated yet, although I think Romance novel is getting close.  This makes it difficult to tell what kind of information is lacking (although lack of sources kind of neccessitates lack of information...).  Like, a section on some characteristics of the yuri fandom (demographics more than anything else, really), more information on portrayal of yuri between shonen/seinen and shoujo/josei - like, is it as common for the male player of Takarazuka to be in shonen as in shoujo?  In any case, putting it through peer review or GAC would certainly give a "to do" list for the article, (although with the lack of scholarship out there, some items may remain on the to do list forever...) -Malkinann (talk) 21:01, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Hm, the fandom demographics and perception differences would be a very interesting topic indeed, though I must admit that I've never seen a larger article on this anywhere except pure original research wikis like TV Tropes. ^^ This might prove difficult to reference. --Koveras ☭ 21:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * IMO it should be something along the lines of a "Cultural impact" section. It should give an outline of the evolution of yuri fandom in Japan and its current state, and a comparison with the yuri fandom here. Furthermore, all the stuff Akiko Morishima reviews in her "yurixyuri" column for Yuri Hime should go in this section too: conventions and specialized events, etc. This is a lot of works, but I'm willing to at least look for references and see what I can come out with in my sandbox. I think this is more important than charaterstics of yuri depictions and the like, because this is a better reflection of the real-world perspective wikipedia requieres for all articles. Kazu-kun (talk) 21:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You do know that you've just raised all our hopes? ;) At the very least, some kind of sales figures kind of data about how popular yuri series are (and so, some measure of how popular yuri itself is) would be interesting. The fandom demographics idea was kind of based on what I'm seeing in the scholarship for yaoi - they talk about who are yaoi fans and why yaoi holds such an appeal for them. And the portayals of yuri characters in shonen vs shoujo was probably my inner LF shining through.-Malkinann (talk) 21:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The demographic idea seems to be useful for what I have in mind too. Well, since I've raised all your hopes I better start to look for references ;P Kazu-kun (talk) 21:41, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Just remember, there is no deadline ;) -Malkinann (talk) 22:04, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Source
Hi, I'm wondering whether the person who provided the Barazoku source for the origin of the term (footnote 13) could tell me how they found this out. I've been totally unable to track down a copy of this particular issue -- even the official site only goes back to the late 1990s. Thanks, Exploding Boy (talk) 20:15, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe that User:Jimi-chan added that reference - you'll have to talk to them about it. -Malkinann (talk) 05:29, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Delisting
I'll start to delist some series.


 * 1) Carried by the Wind: Tsukikage Ran (no yuri that I remember; no references stating otherwise.)
 * 2) Kanon (Didn't watch the series, but there are no references mentioning anything about yuri in it.)
 * 3) Claymore (no references)
 * 4) Kiddy Grade (just fanservice which the reviewers don't even talk about)
 * 5) Neon Genesis Evangelion (I know Maya is supposed to be a lesbian, but just that scene in the movie is not enough, and there are no reference for it either)

Of course, If someone happens to find a reference for one of these series, feel free to restore the title. Meanwhile I'll keep looking for reference for the remaining titles.Kazu-kun 07:26, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know if you could really call this a reference, but there was a single instance of an erotic fantasy Yuichi had in Kanon between Mai and Sayuri: here; not safe for work.--  十  八  08:22, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That was only in the PC visual novel though. Still doesn't really need to be on the list.--SeizureDog 11:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * But then wouldn't that be putting too much bias on the adaptations? The game came first you know.--  十  八  01:14, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm saying it's misleading if it's not in all of the versions. --SeizureDog (talk) 01:57, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that's irrelevant. On the other hand, when dealing with something so minor it's better to have a third-party source. Kazu-kun (talk) 04:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Both Kanon and Kiddy Grade have Yuri character. In Kanon it is the character Mai and Sayuri. They are not shown much, but are considered a "canon" couple. In Kiddy Grade, Eclair and Lumiere are also considered a couple.
 * It's not about being considered canon. Either the Yuri is explicit (which doesn't necessarily mean graphic) like Asami's feelings towards Syuri in Myself ; Yourself or is backed up by a reliable reference. Kazu-kun (talk) 18:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not following you. If there is a lesbian couple in an anime, it will certainly go in the second list. Yuri isn't necessarily explicit. If you want explicit, just stick to the hentai wiki section


 * You're right, you're not following me. Your take on "explicit" means "graphic", but I'm not talking only about that (I already said so). When I say explicit I also mean stated, as in when a character herself states that she loves another female character. On the other hand, you're right when you say that Yuri isn't necessarily explicit. But in those cases (when it's not explicit) we need reliable references to support the claim. Kazu-kun (talk) 05:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You mean like the author/creator saying that they are a couple? A couple doesn't need to stand on a mountain and yell "I am gay for *insert girl here*" In fact, one of my favorite yuri couples, Harada Chie and Aoi from My Hime, ARE a couple, but they never specifically state it out loud in the series. Does that make them not a couple? not at all.
 * Kanon is a curious case. From my point of view, the Toei adaptation showed very explicit yuri relationship between sayuri and mai, including several passionate hugging scene and the recurring focus on the earrings sayuri gave mai as a present.  In the Kyoto adaptation, their relationship was been greatly toned down and appeared to be merely very close friends, although you can still say that is yuri.  Yuri-con website listed Kanon as an anime with yuri elements:  http://www.yuricon.org/list/index.html, therefore I would say putting Kanon back into the second list and label "Toei version" on it. About Claymore the anime, I think very few people who have watched it would not say it was not yuri... changeup  —Preceding comment was added at 18:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Currently, the lists are under cleaning process, so we won't add more titles (or re-list those which have been removed) unless there are third-party sources supporting the claim that there's yuri in those series. Of course, we are constantly looking for references for the remaining titles. The goal is to have the whole list properly sourced. Edit: and that specific list from Yuricon is stated by them as a fan-list, not a focused approach to Yuri: " is meant to be fun. :-)" so it can't be used as reference. Yuricon has material such as essays and other lists that we use as references, but this list is not one of those. Kazu-kun (talk) 18:59, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

This reminded me about some other series I wanted to delist:

More delisting

 * Alice Academy (what seems yuri at first disappears, and in the end it's all het. also no references)
 * Agent Aika (no references)
 * Chrono Crusade (no references)
 * Dears (no references)
 * Dirty Pair (There's nothing even remotely close to Yuri in DP. Some reviewers even complain about the lack of lesbian undertones.)

Again, If someone finds a reference for one of these series, feel free to restore the title. I'll keep looking for reference for the remaining titles too.Kazu-kun (talk) 18:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm surprised you're not finding references for Agent Aika or DearS -- it's pretty explicit in the former, and coupled with bondage imagery in the latter. I'll see what I can dig up. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I was surprised myself about Aika, but if you find something, by all means restore the title. Kazu-kun (talk) 19:19, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I have not seen much of DearS, but I do seem to remember some lesbian overtures. But Dirty Pair has no Yuri in it. A character is named yuri, but they are considered a "slash" couple. They were really popular early couple when the whole yaoi and yuri thing was just starting. Kei and Yuri (dirty pair) are extremely straight, so it is all just slash with them.
 * And about the description of Alice Acedemy. Many yuri themed stories tend to end in a het romance. Especially the early ones. It is rather annoying, cause they sometimes seemed thrown together at the end. It is like "oh ok, I guess I am straight and don't like you anymore. I am going to go be with this guy now."


 * I see what you mean about not finding references for Agent Aika -- reviewers seem too busy noting new records in fanservice density to bother mentioning anything beyond panty-overload. I'll keep looking, though. —Quasirandom (talk) 04:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Right -- I give up. As far as reviewers seem to be concerned, the yuri in Agent Aika is so incidental that it is washed out by the flood of fanservice pantyshots and battle bikinis. At least, that I can find. Gone it remains. —Quasirandom (talk) 23:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Kaleido Star should probably be delisted. The series really doesn't have even a hint of Yuri. The source seems to be the product of a single blogger's imagination, and of a cheap off-universe OVA at that.--Son of lucas (talk) 19:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The Yuri in that series is good enough for the list in which it's listed. Kazu-kun (talk) 19:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Explain how. I've seen the whole series and there just isn't any romantic love implied.  Unless we're somehow going in the realm that any close female character relationship is grounds for Yuri elements, Kaleido Star doesn't qualify.  At the least, for something this dubious I think we're going to need a better source than a blogger who actively searches for traces of (real or imagined) Yuri elements within his review of a show.--Son of lucas (talk) 03:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, Mia and Anna are pretty Yuri to me. Regardless, we use Erica Friedman as a source because she's considered an expert on the subject (Erica Friedman's Guide to Yuri (AfterEllen.com)). Furthermore, she has also guest lectured at the University of Illinois and talked at MIT, and is the president of ALC Publishing. Kazu-kun (talk) 04:28, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems she's also acted as a consultant for an article about yaoi in "The Guide", a gay magazine. -Malkinann (talk) 06:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

More delisting 2
The titles to be delisted today are:
 * Elfen Lied (plenty of reviews, none says anything about yuri or lesbian content of any kind)
 * Xenosaga (plenty of reviews, none says anything about yuri or lesbian content of any kind)
 * Plastic Little (plenty of reviews, none says anything about yuri or lesbian content of any kind)
 * Ghost in the Shell (plenty of reviews, none says anything about yuri or lesbian content of any kind)
 * Bleach (plenty of reviews, none says anything about yuri or lesbian content of any kind)

As always, If someone finds a reference for one of these series, feel free to restore the title. I'll keep looking for reference for the remaining titles too. Kazu-kun (talk) 19:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm really surprised there's no references for Bleach, given there's an openly lesbian classmate with the hots for Orihime, who has to be defended by the other friend, and there's an angsty lesbian backstory romance between two Shinigami, which feeds into how the who Soul Society arc plays out. I believe you're not finding anything -- just surprised. Concur with removing Elfen Lied -- there's nothing more there than some breast-groping by an amnesiac who soon learned better manners. —Quasirandom (talk) 22:22, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * There is also the Lied OVA, Quasirandom, where Lucy has a very close (though platonic and very unlikely romantic) relationship with a human girl. =) But that's subtext, too. Anyway, I was thinking about adding yet another editor comment to the two list sections, asking that no titles are added without a proper reference. Such comments usually help a lot, even though they are not 100% effective. --Koveras ☭ 08:06, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah -- haven't seen the OVA. And, indeed, had forgotten that it existed. :P —Quasirandom (talk) 15:11, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I've found a citation for Ghost in the Shell, so I re-added it. -Malkinann (talk) 08:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Mass list fact tagging
Now you may think I'm crazy for doing it, but I've just done a mass tag of some of the "yuri as an element" series. We do need to cite the lists before nominating for GA, (assuming that's the plan) and having a few tags in the articles will remind us to do so, and dissuade good-faith nominations. I did do a preliminary google around for the titles before just sticking them with a tag, but I couldn't find anything satisfactory. -Malkinann (talk) 02:40, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * No dispute from me. I was actually thinking it was about time to do something like this last week, but never got around to acting on it -- just as well, as list fact is a much better template, one I didn't know about, than fact. In general, we've done a good job of sourcing the lists so far, but the pace has slowed down, enough so that it's time to set a deadline for the rest. (Where by "we" I mean, of course, all you guys.) —Quasirandom (talk) 03:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Might I remind you that Wikipedia has no deadline.--  十  八  05:34, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't like the idea of a deadline, I think we get enough of those IRL. I think that now that the list is tagged up as being problematic, we'll naturally go about citing it to get rid of the tags, rather than just letting the list be obvious to those with yuri goggles turned up. -Malkinann (talk) 03:24, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah. Sorry 'bout that -- was up later than I should have been and, tired, what I wrote was not what I intended to convey. I do know, and heartily agree with, the ideal that there is no deadline, but tagging items does give a sense of urgency to finishing cleaning up. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:34, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Mass list cleaning
Well, I referenced all I could and delisted everything else. The following is a list of all the titles I removed. As always, If someone finds a reference for one of these series, feel free to restore the title.


 * Avenger
 * Best Student Council
 * Kurau Phantom Memory
 * Bottle Fairy
 * Diebuster
 * Dream Knocker
 * Eat-Man
 * Code Geass
 * Fate/stay night
 * Gakuen Utopia Manabi Straight!
 * Galaxy Fraulein Yuna
 * Gall Force
 * Gals!
 * Fushigi Yūgi
 * Hayate the Combat Butler
 * Hidamari Sketch
 * Hitohira
 * Jubei-chan: The Ninja Girl


 * Magic Knight Rayearth
 * Serial Experiments Lain
 * Kodomo no Jikan
 * Koi Koi Seven
 * Love Hina
 * Magikano
 * Maico 2010
 * Maze
 * Mermaid Melody Pichi Pichi Pitch
 * Lucky Star
 * Mermaid Saga
 * Murder Princess
 * Nana
 * Ouran High School Host Club
 * Ojamajo Doremi
 * Pani Poni Dash!
 * Petite Princess Yucie
 * Renkin 3-kyū Magical ? Pokān


 * Samurai Deeper Kyo
 * Sayonara Zetsubō Sensei
 * Sgt. Frog
 * Shinshi Doumei Cross
 * Silent Möbius
 * Sol Bianca
 * Sōkō no Strain
 * St. Luminous Mission High School
 * The Day of Revolution
 * The Third
 * ToHeart2
 * Tsuyokiss
 * Vulgar Ghost Daydream
 * Vandread
 * Yume Tsukai
 * Zombie-Loan
 * Boku no Futatsu no Tsubasa
 * Myself ; Yourself

I don't think the article is ready for GAC yet, though. But I'm up to discuss about it. Kazu-kun (talk) 09:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Ouran High School Host Club shouldn't be hard to reference: there's rival Takarazuka club with self-identified lesbians. I'll see what I can dig up. Boku no Futatsu no Tsubasa will be hard, given it's not licensed; the main character is mixed gender, but she has at least one lesbian sexual encounter (with one of the two lesbians chasing after her). —Quasirandom (talk) 14:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think I saw a review that discussed the relationship between Alice and Lain some time ago, I'll try digging it up. In Fate/stay night, there is a scene with Rin showing a bit more than sisterly affection towards Sakura and a rather suggestive scene with her and Saber, but that's all arguments there are in favor of her alleged bisexuality. At least, in the anime series. In Code Geass, there is Nina's infatuation with Euphemia and the infamous masturbation scene, but other than that, nothing outside the sub-subtext. Lucky Star may qualify but Yutaka and Minami's relationship can only pass for yuri in a fangirl's eyes. ^^; Kagami/Konata is an exclusively fan speculation, too. Murder Princess, despite having all the attributes of fantasy shoujo-ai, doesn't dwell on it so there won't really be any decisive references for it IMO. Sayonara Zetsubō Sensei contains some fanservice (e.g. Kiri and Chie in the first season), that's all. IIRC Sōkō no Strain has an officially lesbian couple, Martha and Ermengarde, and Lavinia openly infatuated with Sara, so I'm surprised at the lack of references. The same goes for Vandread, with its spaceship worth of lesbian pirates (and at least two real couples and one implied one among them).
 * PS: Hm, everyone seems to have read BnFnT by now... >___> --Koveras ☭ 16:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe if we strike the ones above where we're pretty sure nothing will be found? Just a thought. —Quasirandom (talk) 18:28, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I'd much rather somehow emphasize the ones that are obviously sourceable, just to set some priorities. --Koveras ☭ 20:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Italic or bold those? —Quasirandom (talk) 21:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Bold font would do the trick IMO. And I'd also suggest only striking the titles that have been referenced to keep track of the process. --Koveras ☭ 06:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * In Fate/stay Night the character Rin Tōsaka is known to be bisexual which is notably clear in a scene where Rin either gropes Saber (anime) or has sex with her. (Visual novel.) In the anime Zombie Loan the character Yomi often molests the main character Michuru. Okenido (talk) 04:53, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Emily Ravenwood
Emily Ravenwood is a published academic in media-related fields who happens to keep a FY fansite. As such, I believe her site is a reliable source. -Malkinann (talk) 22:01, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've read a bit of her materials and she appears to know what she analyzes. ^^ --Koveras ☭ 16:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, self published sources should be produced by an established expert, not just any schoolar. And even then, I tend to think of this sort of reference as the last resort. Kazu-kun (talk) 04:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * In that case, I also have my doubts about using AnimeNfo as a source. :) First, it's a fan source with little to no academic support; secondly, it's contains links to copyright-violating resources. :) --Koveras ☭ 08:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ravenwood is described as "working in critical theory, American literature, and popular culture, and focusses on the interpretation and exchange of high and low culture".  OK, so her American lit roots aren't so relevant here, but FY is popular culture, she's been published about popular culture, what's the problem?  Why should a self-published reference by a scholar who works in the relevant field (pop culture) be considered the last resort? -Malkinann (talk) 10:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Delisting Take 3
I've removed Maka-Maka (manga) because it had no inline citation, nor the article itself had any sources given. I hate to be a wikinazi like that but I'm trying to make a point here, read my lips: no new items without a reference. --Koveras ☭ 21:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Now, that's more like it, Juhachi. I wish everyone got it right the first time... I would've done it myself, but I'm in the middle of exams right now and researching yuri manga is, well, distracting... --Koveras ☭ 13:02, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Would this get Koihime Musou into the list? --Koveras ☭ 08:42, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * At that, would this be good enough for Maria Holic?--  十  八  18:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * AFAIK this manga has no yuri content, and that reference doesn't state otherwise. Cross-dressing is not the same as yuri. Kazu-kun (talk) 20:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It says right at the top "Romantic comedy about yuri-obsessed girl, cross-dressing sadistic boy".--  十  八  01:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And how is a romantic comedy about a yuri-obsessed girl and a cross-dressing sadistic boy yuri? Kazu-kun (talk) 03:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe because the yuri obsessed girl is yuri obsessed?--  十  八  05:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And if she was yaoi obsessed, would the series be yaoi? No, it would still be a het. romance. The reference just states the girl likes yuri, not that the series has yuri content in it.
 * But don't get me wrong. I'm not saying this series has no yuri at all (I'm not entirely sure). What I mean is that the reference doesn't support that claim. Kazu-kun (talk) 06:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Still, even if she is only just yuri-obsessed, wouldn't that qualify as going under the "yuri as an additional element" list as long as it can be verified (which I believe the ANN source has done at the very least)?--  十  八  08:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Uh, Kazu-kun, Juhachi, I'd like to hear your opinion on Koihime Musou ref, too. ^^ I've watched the first five episodes and can confirm that it does have yuri: one character so far (Sousou) is openly lesbian and another (Choun) has expressed interest in other girls. --Koveras ☭ 06:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I too have been watching the anime, and yes Sousou is openly lesbian by all standards; I believe we use Okazu as a reference on the list already, don't we?--  十  八  08:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Yuri = Girl on girl love right?
Then why is Negima listed and it's reference goes to a blog that blantly states it's a guy on girl relationship? I'm confused? 68.37.99.66 (talk) 05:37, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Taken from the reference:
 * As for yuri fans, our canon couple are pretty much separated in this volume. That does not, however, mean there's no yuri. At one point, Setsuna makes a pledge to help Negi with his troubles no matter what. Kamo suggests that this sounds like a love confession, and notes that Setsuna said if she fell for a guy it would be Negi. Setsuna gets very flustered, and says "Look, the one I've got in *my* heart is Konoka-ojousama!" After which Negi promptly starts to tease her about this.
 * So there is at least some reason Negima is listed.--  十  八  06:19, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * yeah, The Yuri couple in Negima is Nodoko and Setsuna. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk) 04:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Why yuri?
After getting a question on Talk:Yaoi about why do girls like yaoi, I just thought I'd pose the same question here, and ask why do yuri fans like yuri? In yaoi, it's been examined reasonably well in the scads of academic literature on the subject (*jealous*), but I'm just wondering if there's ever been any enquiry for yuri? (one of the academics notes cynically that it's reasonably well accepted, and therefore unexamined, that guys think two girls are HOT, whereas the attempts to find out why yaoi tend to make the girls out as somehow mentally ill). -Malkinann (talk) 22:24, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * But unlike BL (yaoi, shounen-ai), which is primarly targeted towards girls, yuri dosen't have a primary target audience: there's yuri from male-oriented publication as well as female-oriented ones. Therefore, unless we have a well sourced explanation about the appeal of yuri in both genders, any entry about this subject wouldn't be neutral. And neutrality is a must. EDIT: although, reading your post better, it seems you didn't ask this as possible new section. If that's the case, and it was only curiosity... well, I don't really know. I mean, yeah, guys like hot girls, but what about the girls who like yuri... that's a real puzzle lol. Kazu-kun (talk) 03:44, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * What is wrong with girls liking yuri? From all the girls I have talked to, they like yuri cause 1) The stories are usually really good. It spans all genres. 2) The characters are fun, and well developed. Also, yuri can focus on strong female characters. In BL and yaoi (same thing?) There is basically always someone dominating another. But in Yuri, there tends to be equality, a strong female character(s), or a close mentor relationship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk)
 * Actually, your points are also summed up on the main page of Shoujo-Ai Archive. A reliable source? --Koveras ☭ 06:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Unlikely - it's self-published. :( -Malkinann (talk) 00:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Although it has been quoted by a university... -Malkinann (talk) 01:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I saw this webcomic recently... Unoriginal but plausible. ;) Still, this question was already raised in the GA-class section above, and it was decided that a new section is necessary for the topic (obviously, as soon as some sources surface). --Koveras ☭ 07:46, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Lesbianism in erotica has a source which says that heterosexual males are more aroused by porn-of-two-women than porn-of-man-and-woman. I would like to pursue the possibility of a section about the 'why' of yuri, but given the scholarship drought on yuri (compared to yaoi), it'd be more difficult, if even possible at all.  It just seems a bit sexist that there is so much out there on the why of yaoi and so little on the why of yuri. -Malkinann (talk) 09:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, Yaoi is actually fairly easy to market. It's primary market is very loud and really eats it up. This is probably why there are so many one shots out there. There is a good bit of yuri out there, but it isnt always the focus of the story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk)

John Oppliger discussed the popularity of yaoi and yuri recently. I think that would count as a reliable source, perhaps? ;) --Koveras ☭ 14:53, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes. I'm working on something with that and other sources Malkinann provided me with. Kazu-kun (talk) 17:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Roger. I'll just continue posting here whatever I find... --Koveras ☭ 19:58, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

On the topic of yuri vs. yaoi, Zac "Answerman" Bertschy attributes the latter's current popularity to an organized yaoi fan community, which prompts manga authors to produce even more yaoi, which itself fuels the community. According to him, there is no yuri fan community of comparable scale, with all due results. --Koveras ☭ 13:29, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

TCJ's "Stop, My Butt Hurts!" article on yaoi briefly touches upon yuri. I asked here a little while ago as to whether it could be used as a source despite also itself sourcing Wikipedia - I recieved one 'yes' answer. -Malkinann (talk) 11:16, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Video games
I don't know if this was discussed before (anyway, if it was, it shoud be on the archive's talk page already), but how about trying to make a section about yuri-related content in certain games (forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think there is something like that in Fear Effect); I have no idea on how this idea came to my head but, if we could find sources about games containing yuri, it would be a great addition. The games that are said to have something are Fallout 1 and/or 2, Rule of Rose, Akai Ito and Sotsugyou 2nd Generation. Greetings.--Twicemost (talk) 02:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The current list is not only of manga and anime; light novels, visual novels, games, and any other related Japanese media must be included there as well. For example, Akai Ito is already included. Note, however, that only Japanese media can be included, and only if the characters are depicted in manga/anime style. Kazu-kun (talk) 03:40, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I heard GrimGrimoire featured a romance subplot between Lillet and Amoretta... --Koveras ☭ 07:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * And it's true. They even end up living together, as told in the epilogue. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any reference for this game :( Kazu-kun (talk) 07:13, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I didn't notice that list included yuri games too, as the section title was simply Yuri series and I though about something else. Sorry for the overlook. --Twicemost (talk) 22:24, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Summon Night: Swordcraft Story and Summon Night: Swordcraft Story 2, both from Atlus, have shoujo/yuri references. In the first game, if you're playing as Pratty, the female character, and pick Sugar as your Guardian Beast, not only does she kiss you when you meet her but she'll keep confessing her love for you. In the second game, if you choose Aera, the female character, and pick Dinah as your Guardian Beast, their relation will be a toned-down version of the first game. However, at one point of the game, Aera must seduce a guard to let her pass, so she ask a girl named Lynn to do so, but after, Lynn tells the guard that she prefers Aera instead of him, which obviously send the guard into a rage. You guys should check out a few more games from Atlus; they seem pretty good at inserting shoujo/yuri elements in their games. (WebJiCi (talk) 12:30, 2 August 2008 (UTC))