Talk:Yuzuru Hanyu/Archive 1

Move?

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was no consensus, therefore restoring to previous name. --Aervanath (talk) 17:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Yuzuru Hanyū →  — No reason for the move in the first place. Hanyu is clearly his preferred English spelling. —
 * Contested --DAJF (talk) 02:23, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Although the macronned form is probably more correct, the form without the macron is likely preferred due to WP:MOS-JP. Dekimasu よ! 02:49, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Still in high school?
The personal life section says he is, but the infobox says he's 19. Not inconceivable, and maybe less so in Japan, but possibly outdated. Anyone more knowledgable in this sort of thing? InedibleHulk (talk) 20:01, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Semi-protected edit request on 27 December 2016
Please edit the name in hiragana (under right info box) from はにゅう ゆずる to はにゅう ゆづる as it is the correct transcription and my proposed version is used in Japanese version of the article. Acirelk (talk) 19:44, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done st170e talk 00:31, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

What was the injury at the end of 2017?
The article should mention the injury at the end of 2017 that made his performance at the Olympics questionable. Right foot ligament? But exactly what and how serious? Shanen (talk) 10:52, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Ghislain Briand
Should Ghislain Briand named as one of the coaches? He was was part of coaching for Yuzuru Hanyu at the Olympics of 2018. Fulcher (talk) 02:48, 23 February 2018 (UTC) Ghislain Briand is not named as Hanyu's coach in his ISU biography. He has an entire team of coaches, but not each of them is credited - only Brian Orser and Tracy Wilson are officially listed. To avoid misunderstandings, only the officially listed coaches appear in this wikipedia article. 3a4t (talk) 19:04, 25 February 2018 (UTC) Added Briand to the infobox as he is now listed as one of the coaches in Hanyu's ISU biography. 3a4t (talk) 20:54, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Update infobox's profile picture?
Should we change the profile picture (shown in infobox) into a photo of him at the 2018 PyeongChang Olympics? If so, which photo should we choose? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.93.204.238 (talk) 15:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC) Currently there is no suitable(= facing forwards, preferably taken in a ceremony setting) photo of Hanyu from the PyeongChang Olympics that is published under a license that would allow it to be displayed in a Wikipedia article. When (or rather if) such photo is published, we can update his infobox picture. 3a4t (talk) 16:28, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

ISU personal best scores starting from season 2018-2019
As the ISU judging system had been adjusted starting from 2018-19 season and previous records made historical, what is a good way of showing the personal best scores? It is less accurate and less informative to completely remove historical records from the infobox for skaters who have competed extensively under the historical system. However, as the current template was not made to accommodate both current personal best scores and historical personal best scores, adding both records under the current template could possibly be visually confusing. In this situation, would it be a better approach to edit the figure skater infobox template, instead of simply removing the historical records? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Onigiri330 (talk • contribs) 04:07, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

There is currently no uniform standard for updating the Personal Bests in the infobox on skating Wikipedia, since the changes have (generally) caused confusion. However, it is stated multiple times in the article (including the lead section) that Hanyu holds all three historical records in addition to current records. I don't think excluding those from the infobox undermines Hanyu's achievements - the infobox should provide information quickly and succinctly in regards to the current competing situation. Including both in the infobox is in my opinion misleading and unnecessary, especially since the ISU is clearly trying to separate both eras of scoring as evidenced by the skaters' ISU biographies. Including both HR and WR is something I haven't seen in any other article concerning a historical world record holder. Several editors are currently working on standardizing the PB problem, for now the preferred format seems to be either just PB under the new system, or a mixture of PBs from old and new system (also a confusing solution since the numbers are no longer comparable).

Until the template for skaters' infobox is modified I think the best solution is just to include the current PBs/WRs accordingly.

ETA: I suggested a change to the infobox in the template's talk page. I don't have the editor status necessary to edit templates and creating a new one is beyond my competence. 3a4t (talk) 10:22, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Yuzuru Hanyu Olympics seasons into Yuzuru Hanyu
No need to have a separate article for Olympic seasons Bbarmadillo (talk) 18:08, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The consensus above, as per WP:SPLIT (the article had far over the 100 KB of readable prose that the guideline suggested before the split), is to the contrary, so no. --Jasper Deng (talk) 05:46, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:23, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yuzuru Hanyu, 2018 Pyeongchang Winter Olympics Podium.jpg

Finlandia Trophy
Why there was no gold medal from Finlandia Trophy in record awards section? Laluchan (talk) 20:03, 3 April 2022 (UTC)


 * do you mean the record table on the infobox (under his ISU personal best scores)? That table is only for ISU Championships series(Worlds, Europeans/Four Continents), Grand Prix Final, and Team Trophy. Finlandia Trophy is a part of Challenger Series, which is "lesser" in rank compared to the competitions I mentioned earlier. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 00:22, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

"The Greatest" or "one of the greatest men's singles skater"?
I'm making this discussion based on admin's suggestion after an edit warring occurred. For context, | when this article was brought to GA, in the lead it's written "regarded as one of, if not the greatest figure skater". Not long after that, an editor changed it into "regarded as one of" due to wordiness. However, for the past few weeks, there have been edits to change it into "regarded as the greatest" which made other editors questioning whether it adheres to Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy.

There are also other instances in the article on the topic, such as: "Various media outlets and commentators have recognized Hanyu as the greatest skater in history,particularly after his second Olympic victory, for his consistency in results in a highly competitive field and ability to deliver under pressure" - under Skating Technique "Hanyu is considered to be among the finest male figure skaters in the history of competitive figure skating and has been recognized by experts, media, and the general public for his outstanding skills and impact on the sport." - under Awards and Honors

Below are reliable sources that mention/talk about this topic and the exact quote:
 * "He is considered one of the greatest male figure skaters in history" — | USA Today (Feb 2022)
 * "The 23-year-old — already known by some as the greatest figure skater ever" — | Time (Feb, 2018)
 * "Yuzuru Hanyu, the reigning men’s Olympic figure skating champion and perhaps the greatest skater of any era." — The Greatest Figure Skater Ever Is Michael Jackson on Ice, Surrounded by Winnie the Poohs, | The New York Times (Jan, 2018)
 * "For his competitive record and his contributions to a sport’s sinking popularity, he may indeed be the greatest." — Is two-time Olympic gold medalist Yuzuru Hanyu the greatest figure skater of all time?, | The Washington Post (Feb, 2018)
 * "There is little question that Hanyu is the greatest men’s skater at least since Button. Another Olympic medal of any color would make a convincing argument that he is the GOAT, no matter how hard it is to compare across eras." — | NBC Olympics (Jan, 2022)

Other sources and opinions:
 * "It means he has been one of, if not the greatest of all time," by Ted Barton, ISU commentator — | Japan Forward (Feb, 2022)
 * "Hanyu is unquestionably the greatest men’s singles skater of at least the 70 years since [American] Dick Button, the previous man to win two straight Olympics," by Phil Hersh, long-time figure skating writer — | Japan Forward (Feb, 2022)
 * "If you want him to be (the best skater in history), you wouldn’t be wrong,” Browning stated. “Why not. He’s everything. He’s the skater, he’s the jumper, but quintessentially, he’s the performer. He seems to have the superpower to take all the pressure, all the expectations and all the lights and all the cameras, and somehow he’s able to use it as a competitor," by Kurt Browning, 4-time World champion — | The Japan Times (Feb, 2018)
 * "Yuzuru Hanyu has progressed the sport in ways that could never be imagined, he’s the greatest skater there has ever been and to follow him as Olympic champion is beyond my dreams," by Nathan Chen, 2022 Olympic champion — | iNews UK (Feb, 2022)
 * "'I have to say, he is the greatest of all time. That’s for sure.' The words of Brian Orser resonate more than ever after Yuzuru Hanyu became the first man in 66 years to win the Olympic gold medal twice in a row." Brian Orser is Hanyu's coach and Olympic silver medalist. — | The Japan Times (April, 2018)
 * "Some will argue that this Japanese wonder might be the greatest male singles skater ever to grace the ice." — | Yardbarker (Feb, 2022)
 * "Yuzuru Hanyu is the greatest figure skater of all time" — | USC Annenberg Media (Oct, 2019)

For the time being, the disputed statement has been hidden and I've invited several editors related to the edit warring and GA process of this article to give their opinions. Feel free to leave your own opinion by bolding the statement you think is more fit for Wikipedia. Hopefully we can achieve a consensus. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 15:34, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I cannot speak for everyone, because everyone has a different opinion. The truth is not every single person in the world is going to agree that Yuzuru Hanyu is the GOAT in figure skating.Every single person does not think that Simone Biles is the greatest, even if it's a widely regarded fact that she is the GOAT in gymnastics. Even though Yuzuru Hanyu has been considered the GOAT by many media sources, professional, and current peers int he is skating world, I do think it is important to be fair to other amazing skaters. Much like every sport, figure skating goes through evolution and changes in difficulty. One could argue that Plushenko is the greatest and it would not be an unpopular opinion. I think at the very least Yuzuru Hanyu should have "one of the greatest" rather than have nothing at all. He has achieved more in the sport compared to any other figure skater, so I think calling him one of the greats is something that he deserves. I personally think he is the greatest, but in order to be fair and maintain neutrality on Wikipedia, I think having "one of the greatest" would be appropriate at the very least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Constance7070 (talk • contribs) 16:16, 25 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for inviting me to this discussion thread. I have been thinking about this issue lately as well and came to the conclusion: Since we have multiple reliable sources and quotes from skaters or other experts that explicitely name/regard him as "the greatest", I see no issue to write something along the lines "he's regarded as the greatest skater in history by various skaters and other experts". This is a stronger statement than "regarded as one of the greatest", yet it's factual and in accordance with the neutral POV. There is no generalization (it's only the opinion of 'some' skaters/experts, no universal agreement among all). That would be a good compromise, I think. Henni147 (talk) 16:21, 25 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Since there are many sources saying that Hanyu is either one of the greatest or the actual greatest, in my opinion we should revert the statement to what it was originally. It works perfectly for the message that needs to be conveyed, which is that he's at least one of the greatest skaters, if not actually the greatest, and that this is a debated topic. Also, if we decided to use 'the greatest' because some articles say it, then many other skaters would also be entitled to be called 'the greatest', which obviously can't be correct. Since there is no universal opinion, I believe the orginal wording should be used: "regarded as one of, if not the greatest figure skater". Lcodyh803 (talk) 16:48, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I like that solution the most, too. It's a stronger statement than just "one of the greatest", yet it avoids the issue that other skaters would be entitled to be called 'the greatest' as well. I just thought that it's out of debate due to "wordiness". But if it's allowed, I would definitely go with that one. Henni147 (talk) 17:09, 25 May 2022 (UTC)


 * The current version of the "Skating technique" section states: 'The 2006 Olympic silver medalist Stephane Lambiel described him as "the most complete athlete in figure skating, probably ever."' Given the number of citations you presented above, then you could expand upon this in the "Skating technique" section of the article with another sentence or two. Otherwise, "regarded as one of (or among) the greatest figure skaters" seems a good version. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:22, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I vote for ErnestKrause's version and suggestion, although I suggest that instead of using the word "regarded", that we use "has been called by many figure skating experts, commentators, and by the international popular press as..." Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:44, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I think that would be too long for the lead, and can be put added under the Skating Technique instead? The disputed part of the lead before edit warring was: "Widely regarded as one of the greatest figure skater in history for his well-rounded skills, achievements, popularity, and impact on the sport..." Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 00:35, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The current version of the lead isn't overly long and it still needs to be as accurate as possible. It was just a suggetion anyway; my point was that I agree with ErnestKrause that the original wording should be used. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 02:19, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I believe I was the person who originally added "regarded as one of the greatest figure skaters in history" to the lead section back in 2018 (correct me if I'm wrong). It was very quickly (I think on the same day...) changed to "regarded as one of, if not the greatest" by another user. I haven't kept up with the changes in this article since 2020 and I never expected this line would become a point of contention. I maintain that "regarded as one of the greatest figure skaters in history" would be the best option. It adheres to the NPOV guidelines and is succinct. 3a4t (talk) 14:38, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the invitation. IMO, I think we should revert to the original statement "regarded as one of, if not the greatest figure skater". I actually remember that I tried one time to do that but then it was changed again.
 * Although I can't say I am fully aware of the Wiki rules but since many of skaters and experts spoke or wrote this explicitly about him in many trusted and famous publications along the years, it is not actually an opinion of the Wiki writers but rather a take from many sources and while it may be regarded as strong statement but still it doesn't force that opinion on the reader. Also I think having it as "regarded as one of the greatest figure skaters in history" is rather generic and somehow takes away how much Yuzuru skills are evaluated by the sport's community/experts and his impact on the sport in general compared to other great skaters through the history of the sport. Apqaria (talk) 17:25, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree with @3a4t. I think "regarded as one of the greatest figure skaters of in history" is not only more concise, but it's also an objective and indisputable claim. Adding "if not the greatest" feels redundant and makes the statement less decisive. Quadqualityc0ntr0l (talk) 14:49, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
 * My main issue with "regarded as one of the greatest figure skaters in history" is the following: "one of the greatest" is a pretty vague statement. Is he regarded to be among the two greatest skaters? Or ten or thirty? How many skaters are in the circle of candidates? The larger this circle is, the less of a weight or relevance this statement has. It feels a bit like a consolation prize, when experts don't come to an agreement. Sure, it's undisputable and neutral in wording, but it also raises new questions like
 * Who are the other skaters among the all-time greatest in (men's) figure skating?
 * What does Hanyu yet need to do to become the undisputed greatest?
 * That's why I personally prefer to either add "if not the greatest" or specify it as "regarded as the most complete figure skater" (like CBC moderator Scott Russell did) or skip this sentence entirely. At the moment I tend to go with the latter. As a skater with the most set world records, first back-to-back win of the Olympics in 66 years and first ever Super Slam in men's singles it's needless to say that Hanyu is "one of the greatest skaters in history". It's a pleonasm at this point that only triggers more edit wars in the future. Henni147 (talk) 08:57, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
 * If you read the references I put above and on the statement on the article, | this article from Yardbarker names a good list of figure skaters considered as the greatest. From other attached references, figure skating experts mentioned Dick Button a lot. Since we're talking of "all times", of course Gillis Grafström would have to be considered as well. That answers your first question. Secondly, what makes someone an undisputed greatest? The thing is no one exactly sure what. Grafström is considered one for his three-time Olympic wins, Sonja Henie has been considered as the best figure skater, either from men's and women's singles, because on top of winning streak, she revolutionized artistry of the sport and was popular globally. Now, to be considered the greatest, they also have to do quads. And perhaps in the future, the skater has to do quints. It's ever changing. Who's considered the greatest now may not be considered the greatest in the future. Thus, I personally think we can't use "the greatest of all times" in the lead. As @Figureskatingfan suggested, we can put more details who have considered Hanyu as the greatest and when, but to put that on the lead which acts as a summary and it's not rare readers only read that and not the rest of article, it would be a misleading and biased. In the other hand, to not putting the sentence at all, it means we're ignoring what major publications and experts have been talking about for the last four years at least. And there will be a lot of readers who share the same opinion as @Constance7070 and will trigger more edit warring. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 10:31, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, my post was not clear in wording. The two questions I noted above were not addressed at this discussion round here. These are questions that people might have when reading "regarded as one of the greatest in history" in the lead section. If I was a casual reader with little knowledge about figure skating, I would ask myself these questions.
 * Since athletes of other sports have this sentence in their lead section as well, it's probably okay to include it, but I have my doubts that this will make an end to the edit warring. It may not require a page protection, but it won't stop. That's my guess.
 * Footnote: I fully agree about avoiding the terms "all times" or "ever", since we can't look into the future. But I think it's totally fine to talk about "(one of the) greatest in history". History is written and skaters can be compared to some extent, especially in the same discipline or judging system. Henni147 (talk) 12:25, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree with @Yolo4A4Lo. Times change and in my opinion sobriquets like "GOAT" don't belong on Wikipedia. An encyclopedia shouldn't concern itself with deciding who is "the greatest" in whatever field of sport. There are no "candidates" for this title. However it would be good to write 'one of the greatest skaters in history' in the lead so that people who are not that familiar with figure skating can quickly get an idea of the scale of his achievements. I would argue the same about any truly outstanding athlete who has been called the GOAT by media and fans.
 * I'm also against adding something like "the most complete figure skater" - that's even more subjective than calling him the GOAT. Completeness doesn't equal greatness, and while one could argue that greatness is directly tied to quantifiable achievements, I wouldn't know how to easily explain "completeness" to a person unfamiliar with skating. 3a4t (talk) 12:41, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
 * From what I read in debates across different sports, you are considered a "complete" athlete if you have mastered the full spectrum of required technical skills (physical and cognitive) in your respective discipline. It's one of the five commonly used criteria to judge the overall "greatness" of an athlete. The other ones are the set of records and titles, the quality level of single technical skills, longevity and sometimes popularity as well. That's why I would say that "greatness" is more subjective than "completeness", since the latter is a part of the overall greatness.
 * Here is a quick explanation why completeness is a crucial criterion in Hanyu's case: Henni147 (talk) 17:10, 30 May 2022 (UTC)


 * The specialty about figure skating is that it requires a large set of very different skills: skating, drawing figures, jumping, spinning, carriage and dancing, music translation and program composition (plus lifting partners in pairs and dance). The weight of these skills in competition has changed a lot throughout the years and it also varies from discipline to discipline. There are many skaters who excel at three or four of these skills, maybe five, but it's unique to have a skater, who has the muscular power to jump multiple quads of a large trajectory, the flexibility to perform a doughnut or Biellmann spin, and the skating ability to perform a program without any consecutive crossovers (basic strokes to gain speed) - an achievement considered virtually impossible by John Misha Petkevich in 1989. And all that in one program without neglecting the other skills/quality aspects.
 * Patrick Chan had the ability to combine quads with outstanding skating skills, but had issues with spin positions that require flexibility in the back and shoulders. Valieva or Shcherbakova performed programs with quads and difficult spin variations, but needed many crossovers and other basic skating to accomplish this. Skaters like Jason Brown, Deniss Vasiljevs or Satoko Miyahara are known for their excellent spins and skating skills, but struggle to land quads. At least one of the three aspects is usually missing.
 * That's probably the reason why "completeness" is so commonly used by experts when referring to Hanyu. There are other skaters with better medal records, longer careers, maybe better quality in single skills as well, but Hanyu is that rare species of a skater who's able to combine big jumps, difficult spin variations and a ridiculously low amount of basic stroking in one program.


 * Henni147 (talk) 17:12, 30 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Again, as a long-time fan of skating, I am well aware why Hanyu can be considered "the most complete" or "the greatest". The fact that you felt compelled to post such an exhaustive explanation also proves my point that such language doesn't really belong in the lead section of an encyclopedic article. By referring to "completeness", we use criteria that are hardly quantifiable and are specific to whatever activity the individual in question participates in. By trying to prove "greatness", we usually refer to the number of medals won, records achieved etc. which are universally understandable measurements of success. Using these criteria, Hanyu is easily among the greatest athletes in the competitive history of his sport. I'm all for expanding the 'Skating technique' section to describe Hanyu's "completeness" in more detail, but the lead section should be kept neutral and succinct. To be fair, I like the lead section the way it is now, so skipping the sentence entirely could also be a good option. 3a4t (talk) 18:21, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree that a concept like "completeness" requires too much additional explanation to be included in the lead (unless there will be an official scientific definition of that term based on quantifiable criteria in the future). Henni147 (talk) 06:05, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for everyone who has stated their opinion. Wikipedia suggested to open discussion for at least a week before determining the consensus, so this discussion will be opened for at least two more days. Just to add more perspective, I've looked up articles of other Greatest athletes, and statement "regarded as one of the greatest" has been used on big names such as Muhammad Ali, Roger Federer, LeBron James, Tiger Woods et al. Meanwhile, stronger statement "regarded as the greatest" has been used on Wayne Gretzky, Michael Jordan, and Babe Ruth whom have been called so by their respective sport association. Regarding ErnestKrause's suggestion, whichever the consensus will be, the discussion among figure skating experts and media on Hanyu's greatness from the references attached above will be added to Skating Technique section, which I suggest to be expanded to Skating Technique and Artistry to elaborate his greatness better. (Feel free to contact me if you have materials regarding this) - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 10:56, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Follow-up

 * I'm sorry it took to long because there are many obstacles in my daily life, but as a follow-up to the discussion above, I have drafted the possible changes and expansion for the Lead, Skating Technique, and Accolades section on my sandbox. All changes and addition are italicized. I have found reliable sources for most of the additions, except for paragraph of his impact on quads evolution and his popularity. Feel free to copy edit the draft, add more relevant points, and discuss it here. Other editors who might not engaged in early discussion are welcome as well. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 10:06, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
 * First of all, thank you very much for your effort to create this draft! I really liked your additions in the lead and skating technique sections, and polished the latter a bit with sources and some small changes in wording. Some general notes:

I know that commentators and journalists are often tempted to use the term "artistry" as a type of skill and the statement "X is able to combine technique and artistry", but in my opinion this shouldn't be used in an encyclopedic article. As a skater you can learn and master a spectrum of different technical skills (skating, jumping, spinning, carriage/dancing, music translation and program composition), and combine them to a harmonic unit. But "artistry" is not really a skill that you can learn or possess. You can leave with your performance an artistic impact, but this impact always depends on your audience that either sees an aesthetic or ideal value in the performance or not. This is something that you as a skater have no control over, no matter how refined and complete your spectrum of skills is. Hence, you cannot "combine" technique with artistry as such. Solid technique can lead to an artistic impact, if at all. Personally, I prefer to avoid this vague term "artistry" altogether, even if it's commonly used (and abused) by the media. In this section, I would really focus on Hanyu's spectrum of technical skills only (which also includes music-related skills like program composition).
 * Thank you for your reply, but your whole explanation shows the misconception of "artistry". With Wikipedia is an encyclopedic space, we should refer to other encyclopedic source. Wikipedia itself defines the word as "significant artistic skill", while Cambridge dictionary defines it as "great skill in creating or performing something" and Vocabulary.com defines it as "a particular skill or flair for something, especially an artistic pursuit". So, it's tangible, and different from "artistic impact" which is intangible. If you check on Wikipedia, "artistry" is very commonly used as a section title for artists, such as Lana Del Rey, Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson et al. The abuse of the word in figure skating scene doesn't make the word "invalid", especially when I know we all agree here that Hanyu has significant role in creating his art.
 * I think I should explain my idea behind this expansion. The general idea of Skating Technique and Artistry is to describe what Hanyu puts on the ice. The section only touched the technical side of his programs, so since he's very involved and philosophical in the creative process of them, a break down on his artistry is needed. Hpefully this section will answer questions "why is Hanyu said to have strong techniques?" "why do people call Hanyu an artist/artistic?" and ultimately, indirectly "why is considered as one of or the great?". So, instead of confusing people by using "artistry" as a jargon (like commentators do), I hope this section will show that it's a valid term for Hanyu because he does posses it. And as you can see, the section breaks down his artistry into his artistic image, genres he usually uses, most frequent themes in his programs, his most notable styles/interpretations, and his notable influences/idols (thus the part about Plushenko until the end of Early Life should be moved with adding information on the meaning of Origin). Using "Genre, styles, themes, influences" as section title is too long and "artistry" has covered them all, so why not use that? (and to address your last reply, "spectrum" implies there's a specific range or levels to which his technique and versatility are measured, so it's not quite right to represent what the section describes) Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 02:07, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
 * It's fine to use the term "artistry" by itself as a section title, as it's done in the MJ article. But I would strictly avoid term "combine" in the context of technique and artistry. This sounds as if these two were independent skills that can exist without each other, but you can't create any work of art without a technical basis. They are linked by default, there is no need to combine, merge or fuse them. Hanyu said himself in 2018: "That so-called balance between [technical] difficulty and artistry, to me that doesn't actually exist. Artistry is founded upon absolute technical prowess, that's what I think." I would place this quote from him right below the section title, as it perfectly captures his view on this topic. Henni147 (talk) 09:47, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I think you need to understand that during the process of writing this article you can't see it from Hanyu's point of view because this is not his autobiography, except when it's about a part that describes his opinions or direct quotes. "Technique" or "technical skills" are different from "artistry". They are certain defined methods someone uses to create or present their art, while "artistry" is the the skill someone has to approach the process of their art. For example, a skater can be technically strong (their jumps technique are great, their skating skills are great etc), but their artistry is low because they're not really involved in the creation of the programs, in how they look during the performance etc. And actually Hanyu does recognized artistry and technique as two different things, but for him those two have to go along side-by-side.
 * If you notice, I have put the link for that quote under Accolades and Impact for the quads evolution paragraph. (I failed to find the reference in text form, maybe you can help) Because that part is talking about Hanyu's role in the quads evolution over the years, but we need to make it clear on his stance on the neverending debate on skating vs. jumps. The T&A section doesn't need it because we have established with the summary and quotes that he is advanced in both techniques and artistry. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 10:08, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry to be this picky, but my alarm bells are ringing if composition (creation process of the program), carriage (how the skaters "look" in their performance) and music translation are not listed under technical skills, which they ARE. Music editing, logical design of skating patterns and movements, placement and distribution of elements... the precise translation of timing, tempo, volume and pitch changes to body movements... this is all technical through and through (even measurable). If a skater is not perceived as an artist, in nearly all cases something is wrong with at least one or two technical skills. Either the composition technique is poor or the music translation or the carriage, posture, coordination or whatever. Often the skating and jumping skills are flawed too, even if they appear clean on the surface (which is the case with many quad jumpers).
 * What I'm asking for – first and foremost – is to NOT group skating, spinning and jumping as technical skills, and composition, music translation etc. as artistry. They all contain aspects of both, not either or. Henni147 (talk) 12:06, 16 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I have updated the draft to address your concerns regarding the choice of words, please check it. There's also no subsection under Skating Style and Artistry, so there's no need to clearly separate technique from artistry. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 15:03, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Excellent! Thank you very much for your update! Yes, this is a very good solution. And I apologize for my pickiness. I just read so many times in skating discourses that skills like composition are not technical ("only" artistry), that somethings snaps everytime. Henni147 (talk) 15:19, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Hanyu's Biellmann and Doughnut spin are listed under "skating technique" in this section. But difficult spin positions are part of the spinning skills of a skater, not skating skills. So is the mastery of different jump types part of the jumping skills. I would make clear distinctions there and add under "skating skills" Hanyu's special feat to perform a clean short program without any consecutive crossovers at the 2021 All Japan Championships, adding the quote from John M. Petkevich's skating manual in 1989: "Without a doubt, crossovers are the staple of every skater. Not only are they used to negotiate corners, but they are also used to pick up speed. [...] Skating without crossovers would be virtually unthinkable."
 * I agree with your opinion on "skating technique", the section title will be changed to just Techniques and Artistry. I will add the information on his minimal crossovers. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 02:07, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Another note about spins: It's not really accurate to say that the doughnut and Biellmann position are more "prized" in women's skating. It's true that due to the mass of quads, spins have less weight in men's, but the spin elements as such have the same base value and GOE range in both disciplines. In the men's event you're even allowed to perform spins of higher value than in the women's event by the current rules. Men can do a spin with a change of foot in the short program, which has a higher BV than a spin in basic position (which is required in the women's SP). I would change "more prized in women's skating" to "more commonly seen in the women's singles event".
 * I actually got that word from an article from Time, but I don't mind the change. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 02:07, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
 * In the section about accolades and impact, I recognized that the second paragraph about jump firsts is a bit redundant to the paragraph under skating technique. I would try to combine the two and mention Hanyu's impact on the quad jump development in the technique section. Regarding his popularity in small figure skating nations we have fresh newspaper sources that mention his large impact on the fast ticket sales for live viewing events in Taiwan. We could use that and also sources that mention his popularity in Brazil and Turkey.
 * Since Technique and Artistry is about what he can do while Accolades and Impact is about the significance of what he has done, the jump firsts will be moved to Accolades and Impact while leaving what kind of quads he can do on Technique. Feel free to add in references on his popularity and impact outside the sport. That part is still a rough draft. I plan to finish and add other parts into the article first when they're ready, then add this part later so we can focus on it. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 02:07, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Yep. I had exactly the same idea today to put the arsenal of quads into the technique section and the jump firsts into the accolades section. You have my full support for this one ;) Henni147 (talk) 08:55, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
 * That's it from me at first glance. I will make more additions in both sections today. Henni147 (talk) 15:47, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Update: I decided to create a separate draft in my own sandbox, so that we can compare the different structures of the section. My draft is still in the making. I have added a paragraph about Hanyu's skating skills at the top, adjusted some wordings and switched the order of paragraphs. (I also formatted the citations, replacing dead links by proper new sources.) I try to complete the rest tomorrow or on Friday at the latest, so that we can properly discuss it. Henni147 (talk) 19:52, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I have discussed this above, and I will add the necessary sources to my draft. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 02:07, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Template limit exceeded
I just realized that we have exceeded the total number of allowed templates on the page. I was informed that the easiest way to fix this issue is to clean up the citation section. This includes the This will require a lot of work, but I would volunteer to go through the entire page this weekend and clean up all sources. This is long overdue anyways. Henni147 (talk) 16:16, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * removal of citations with permanent dead links
 * grouping of ISU documents like Hanyu's bios pages, world standings and rankings to one source
 * reduction or grouping of sources that prove the same statement
 * replacement of multiple single sources by one new global source that covers the content of the others (Hanyu's career summary on nonno.hpplus.jp is a very good source that can be used for the career section)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:07, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Yuzuru Hanyu Monuments - Sendai International Center Station.png

Personal best scores (infobox)
I have taken a quick look at other skaters' biography articles, and there seems to be no consensus among authors regarding the choice of personal best scores for the infobox. On some pages, the PB of the latest +5/-5 GOE system are listed, on others like Javier Fernández' it is the career best score – in his case the PB scores achieved in the +3/-3 GOE system, which makes sense because those scores were much higher than his PB in the new system. Same goes for Hanyu who scored above 220 and 330 points in the +3/-3 system, but not in the +5/-5 system.

As a compromise, I listed his career bests in the infobox with a footnote mentioning his PB scores achieved in the new +5/-5 system. I hope that this is a reasonable solution that properly reflects Hanyu's score statistics, but is also in line with the guidelines for figure skating articles. Henni147 (talk) 21:25, 9 January 2023 (UTC)