Talk:Z'EV/Archive 1

"Tribal" and metals
"he is, however, fairly solely responsible for delivering the ‘tribal’ impulse and esthetic into the Western/European cultural milieu developing between the years 1978-1984."

A rather dubious and vague statement. I have my doubts that Malcolm McLaren and Adam Ant (to name but two) were necessarily taking their cues from him.

"In Nov./Dec. 1980 he introduced intense metal based percussion music to the UK and Europe while opening for Bauhaus on their first headlining tours there."

And another, since Einsturzende Neubauten were already a going concern at this point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.138.235.243 (talk) 01:11, 21 July 2007


 * I am Z'EV and I added both these sentences. taken in order>
 * In an article in the NME in late 1981 or 1982 Chris Bohn [current editor of The Wire] did in fact write words to that effect - and in fact, in regard to Adam Ant and Bow Wow Wow's use of Burundi style drumming. Unfortunately i can not longer find the clipping, otherwise there would be a quote with a citation


 * Yes, Neubauten were already in existence at that point, though they had not played outside of Berlin yet, and were not at that point the band they became after F.M.Einheit joined the band in 1981.
 * Besides that, they're a rock and roll band [for want of a better term] and not 'percussion music' which is the genre i am specifically referring to, no? --Rhythmajik (talk) 14:01, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The sources for these comments by Rhythmajik could have been:
 * Chris Bohn in the NME, 8th May 1982, wrote: …he sees more and more bizarre percussive elements permeating the pop mainstream – check Spandau’s “Chant”, The Creatures, Bow Wow Wow, Bohannon and the cultish links Foetus Over Frisco, Germany’s Die Krupps and Einsturzende Neubauten – he’s optimistic as to its success.
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 * Jason Pettigrew in Alternative Press, June 1993 wrote: Consider your music collection. Neubauten? Test Department? Z’EV’s been there first.
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 * Je VH (talk) 21:04, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Weisser
Why is z'ev referred to in the article as Weisser? Hyacinth (talk) 04:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * YES!!! Hyacinth!!! That is what i would like to know!!!! I almost sh-t the first time i saw it. However i did look at other Wiki bio pages and that does seem to be the 'style'. Have been wondering if i should just change it back to how you originally wrote the page ,o --Rhythmajik (talk) 14:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Rhythmajik (Z'EV) and Hyacinth, Maybe "Sting" might be a reference? "Sumner" is used for the time of his life before he started using his alias "Sting"... Je VH (talk) 21:25, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Is there a reference for this practice in the "Sting" article? Hyacinth (talk) 01:48, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * No, the use, written in the comment by me from 26 June 2008 isn't applicable anymore, it's all "Sting" now. Je VH (talk) 21:20, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Discussion of this article on other talk pages
Does anyone remember the location of discussions regarding this article on other talk pages such as user talk pages? Hyacinth (talk) 04:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Changes or modifications on 2 February 2008
Why were these necessary? For example: “he developed a personal technique utilizing self-developed instruments” was changed into ”Weisser began creating his own percussion instruments”. Edits like this seem to "reduce the data" and can’t be called “constructive”, so I’ll be glad to replace the original writings! Je VH (talk) 21:14, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Z'EV requests that people...
Originally this was written in the main article, also on 02/02/2008 it was adapted as a "reference" on the name "Z'EV". In my opinion this belongs in the article or in a footnote, not as a reference? Je VH (talk) 21:14, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * "z'ev requests that people note that either Z'EV or z'ev are acceptable typographies for his "brand name" (context depending), but that Z'ev most emphatically is not." Hyacinth (talk) 06:10, 20 February 2011 (UTC)


 * It was deleted here: . Je VH (talk) 21:39, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Why does the article list his time of birth?
Does it have some special significance? Most if not all of the biography articles I've seen list only the birth date. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.111.161.156 (talk) 23:51, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, definitely! To get a more correct comprehension of his career it should be kept in my opinion because it illustrates his interest in astrology, cosmology, etc, on which a lot of his works are based. Je VH (talk) 21:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That would make more sense if, after explaining his interest in astrology and/or cosmology one gave an example of his use of these topics in his works which included his own birthday. To simply list time along with date, month, and year in the spot most articles only list date, month, and year does not explain anything or give more comprehension of his career. Hyacinth (talk) 07:42, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are right and I don't think there's a work that is dealing with his own birthday. The time has been deleted, here: . Je VH (talk) 21:51, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Kabbalah
"His work with both text and sound has been influenced by the Middle Eastern mystical system best known as Kabbalah (although not of the Jewish variety)"

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

MrBook (talk) 13:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Come to the point.
 * Je VH (talk) 10:10, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

MrBrook, I would suggest this as a perfect situation for a   tag. Hyacinth (talk) 06:14, 20 February 2011 (UTC)


 * This statement was reduced into: His work with text and sound has been influenced by Kabbalah, here:, although the information Middle Eastern and although not of the Jewish variety was sourced. The source for the statement: His work with both text and sound has been influenced by the Middle Eastern mystical system best known as Kabbalah (although not of the Jewish variety) was added here: and wikified (using refname), here: . The source is part of this interview by Dmitri Kolesnik on website: : in which Z’EV talks about his works that were inspired by the so called Book Of Formation or Sefer Yetzirah: the original text deals with the inner workings and applications of the 22 letters of the Babylonian alef bet [which later became known as biblical Hebrew]…I deal with it more from its Babylonian perspective and really with none of the trappings of Jewish mysticism which have accrued around it since the alef bet was adopted by the Jews…anyway the letters also are numbers so it was from that perspective that I dealt with it --- that way anyone can use the various systems available with out having to learn a new alef bet -- what you basically get is a reliable and workable and non-arbitrary semantics of numbers -- and of strings of numbers -- which then brings you to rhythms….while I don't really formally engage in any kabalistic practises nor have for many years its influence is fairly all pervasive -- its like always there without my having to even think about it.
 * Another source for this can be found in the interview with Mike Hovancsek published on website: Q: What about Shamanistic Qabala? A: Bottom line, “qabala” simply means tradition. It specifically relates to oral traditions. In the West it is generally considered an astral/cosmological system, based in/on the planets and the stars, embracing a highly developed system of correspondences between particular dynamics of cause/effect and concept/form embodied in humanity and cosmos. The traditions that I draw upon have to do with the effectiveness of rhythm - its ability to invoke particular mental states, contribute to the healing process, etc... This is the shamanistic statement - and the qabala-istic - in that I have adapted the animistic/earth-based conception of shamanism and wedded it with the “highly developed system of correspondence” extant in the qabala. Je VH (talk) 21:31, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Why is okay for subject to substantially contribute to their own bio?
seriously, this reads way more like his home page than a neutral POV article. it's not that there's anything incredibly suspect, but it just reads like a press release/CV than an article.

67.161.88.180 (talk) 08:20, 13 January 2010 (UTC)Hegemony Cricket


 * You're free to point out where WP:NPOV is in danger; definitely the purpose is to create a thorough and encyclopedic article with all the needed reference to the used sources. Je VH (talk) 19:39, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Hegemony Cricket, this reads like a personal resume not a encyclopaedia article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.84.187 (talk) 08:30, 5 February 2010 (UTC)


 * 124.197.84.187 (talk), User:ClueBot correctly reverted your edit on the article page due to Vandalism.


 * Again, if there would be a problem with WP:NPOV, point out where there is one on this talkpage. Je VH (talk) 14:00, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Isn't putting his email address in the article a bit odd? I suspect if somebody wanted to get in touch with him, clicking through to his webpage makes more sense. This is Wikipedia, not a rolodex. Laerm (talk) 04:12, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Oké, I've deleted the email address Je VH (talk) 10:14, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's one of the more eggregious preening piece of shit vanity article's i've ever seen. Starting to deal with it.Bali ultimate (talk) 10:18, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Remember Civility. Hyacinth (talk) 05:48, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

COI
What a mess. Taking a gentle approach for the moment, but this appears to be one of the more committed vanity projects in wikipedia history.Bali ultimate (talk) 02:42, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Why, what, where, and how does this article have a conflict of interest or WP:COI? Hyacinth (talk) 05:47, 20 February 2011 (UTC)


 * See Talk:Hank Green. Hyacinth (talk) 09:32, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Declaration and questions about COI by user:Je VH
See talkpage: Usertalk: Je VH.

Je VH (talk) 20:06, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Notability check according to the criteria WP:MUSICBIO by user:Je VH
By way of precaution that the COI tag would be harmful or counterproductive to Wikipedia Projects, for example WP:MUSICIAN or WP:INDUSTRIAL, I’ve written out this notability check. According to the guidelines an artist may be notable if he meets at least one of the following criteria:
 * Combination of criteria 1 (non-trivial published works except from press releases, interviews, lists, etc…) and a “chart” aspect:
 * In 1992 Hopey Glass of The Wire (magazine) included the track “Shake Rattle & Roll”, released on the 2CD “1968-1990 One Foot In The Grave” in the list entitled “The Wire's Top 50 Rhythms of All Time”, published in its Issue #98, source:
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Global link to discography at the Allmusic website: and a list of releases with credits: To select but a few, the Allmusic website enumerates releases on labels like:
 * Criteria 5: has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels
 * Avant Records, a label founded by John Zorn:
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 * Tzadik Records, another label founded by John Zorn:
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 * and in collaboration with Oren Ambarchi
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 * Touch Records a record label established by Jon Wozencroft:
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 * and in collaboration with KK Null and Chris Watson
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 * Soleilmoon Recordings
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Z’EV is considered as one of the progenitors of the musical style entitled as Industrial Music. Re/Search included Z’EV in the Industrial Culture Handbook (first printing 1983) together with artist like: Throbbing Gristle, Mark Pauline, Cabaret Voltaire, NON, Monte Cazazza, Sordide Sentimental, SPK, Johanna Went and R&N. The 12th printing of the book was published December 2006 in a limited hardback edition. In the introduction, on page 109, the authors wrote: Z’EV is a percussionist with found/assembled kinetic sculptures – metal and plastic tubes, tubs, pans, bottles, sheets ,springs, strung together or not, hurtled around the stage, beat upon with mallets or sticks but orchestrated for contrasts and crescendos of rhythmic noise, in an athletic/dance feat dangerous to performer and audience alike.
 * Criteria 7: has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city
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Also in this same book on page 133 in the chapter about the band Rhythm & Noise pagelink:R&N, the authors testified the fact that Z’EV (at that moment using his given name “Stefan Weisser”) was already developing particular acoustic percussion techniques around 1975 in the band Cellar-M, Cellar-M being a pre-cursor for the band Rhythm & Noise.
 * quote: Cellar M: Hearings featuring Stefan Weisser’s pre-Z’EV acoustic percussion interfaced to the ongoing electonic framework. Uneasy Listening. L.A.-S.F., 1974-75.
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Sources also compared his work with other bands/musicians that/who have used a lot of percussive elements:
 * Chris Bohn in the NME, 8th May 1982, wrote: …he sees more and more bizarre percussive elements permeating the pop mainstream – check Spandau’s “Chant”, The Creatures, Bow Wow Wow, Bohannon and the cultish links Foetus Over Frisco, Germany’s Die Krupps and Einsturzende Neubauten – he’s optimistic as to its success.
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 * Jason Pettigrew in Alternative Press, June 1993 wrote: Consider your music collection. Neubauten? Test Department? Z’EV’s been there first.
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Some other sources, in chronological order, who wrote about his use of self constructed percussive instruments, build from materials like stainless steel, titanium and PVC:
 * Bea Flatte in “The Aquarian”, 21th November 1979 wrote: Z'EV took Bill Haley's "Shake, Rattle & Roll" literally as he played his homemade instruments by rolling them across the floor, rattling them together and shaking them up and down. Z'EV proved to be a sensitive and skilled master of his instruments, creating complex rhythms and varied timbres, building to exciting climaxes and demonstrating that there is more to baking pans, used plastic containers and old metal than previously thought possible. Z'EV is a pioneer not only in music, but in ecology as well.
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 * Joel Selvin in the “San Francisco Chronicle” 9th February 1980 wrote: With a look as intent as a concert pianist, Z’EV beat the floor with his collection of objects, building, surging, tinkling and smashing without a trace of guile or insincerity
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 * Glenn Morrow in “The New York Rocker” July-August 1980 wrote: The instruments are collections of objects ... strung together with ropes and swung at varying speeds and directions to produce a fairly astonishing range of pitches and timbres. And the moves the guy goes through to manipulate these instruments are, for grace and athleticism, strong stuff. Z'EV is also interesting for the close correlation of visual and musical aspects, since the physical vibrations of the objects you see are the same as those picked up by the ears as sound. Also, since the rhythms of the work are dictated by the performer's every and any movement, an inevitable integrity unifies the act.
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 * Chris Bohn in the NME, 8th May 1982, wrote: …trailing a set of home-made percussive instruments behind him, before flailing every available percussive surface with any available extreme of his body. It soon becomes apparent why his knees are padded, skateboard style, even if one is left to wonder why he doesn’t betray a similar concern for his arms, chest and head.
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 * Hopey Glass in The Wire (magazine), Issue 98, April 1992, wrote: Who else calls up Gods? z'ev uses his array of hanging metal objects to invoke moods which are more than just moods; to charge the airspace he's working in with the spirit he's saluting. This is an old idea - maybe the oldest - in drum-lore, but almost everyone else has lost sight or sound of it, behind a tradition of art-directed technique. A torrent, a clatter, a tumult, a vast, endless ringing; you barely get the idea on record
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Je VH (talk) 20:49, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Category tags: Category:Jewish American musicians and Category:American Jews
Proposal: remove categories

There’s this quote by z’ev, testifying that he doesn’t practice Judaism, in this interview dated March-June 1999, link : ''Stefan Joel Weisser was the name outside of "the faith" and Sh'aul Z'ev bn Yakov bn Moshe bn Sha'ul was the name inside "the faith". and please note that I have not had anything really much to do with that "faith" for at least some 30 years. and not to be coy about it, the "faith" I was born into was Judaism.''

Je VH (talk) 20:49, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think its a religious category. Hyacinth (talk) 09:34, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Category tag: Category:American expatriates in the United Kingdom and all statements in the article about being “UK-based”
Proposal: remove categorie and statements

There is no source for the fact that he would be an inhabitant of the UK, in point of fact he isn’t anymore, so this is false information. Please delete with regard to the subject's privacy.

Je VH (talk) 20:49, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Lead sentence
Proposal: delete following statements:

…musician whose musical interests focus on percussion: There’s no source for the statement that his musical interests would focus just on percussion, which means that this statement is WP:OR. So this is false and misleading information (hence: “Louis Armstrong was a musician whose musical interests focused on trumpet playing”).

…small yet intrepid: does not make any encyclopedic sense in my opinion.

UK based: There is no source for the fact that he would be an inhabitant of the UK, in point of fact he isn’t anymore, so this is false information. Please delete with regard to the subject's privacy.

Sources dealing with poet: sound poetry and visual poetry:

1. Carl E. Loeffler and Darlene Tong, in their book Performance Anthology: Source Book for a Decade of California Performance Art, first edition 1980, ISBN 0-931818-01-x, published by Contemporary Arts Press, San Francisco, cite references (as Stefan Weisser) to published works in magazines and books. An updated edition of this book was published in 1989 by Contemporary Arts Press, SF and Last Gasp Press”, SF, ISBN 0-86719-366-2, entitled Performance Anthology: Source Book Of California Performance Art''. Link to the Google books version of the updated edition:
 * Publishing in La Mamelle Magazine by Art Contemporary, SF from 1975 on page 176
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 * publishing from 1976 on page 238
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 * publishings by X Press, Oakland and Wordworks Gallery, San Jose from 1977 on page 272
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2. Re/Search in the Industrial Culture Handbook, first issue 1983, 12th printing 2006, p. 116-117 cites several inclusions in archives, visual and audio publications, audience performances and gallery presentations of sound/visual poetry.
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3. Survey: La Mamelle at Art Spaces Archives Project cites him (as Stefan Weisser) in some sound poetry performances and visual poetry installations, link:
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4. Rens Saunders in Vinyl Magazine, issue 4, June 1981, p20, in Dutch, asked questions about his sound and visual poems.
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5. Chris Bohn in the NME, 8th May 1982, p15-16, also asked questions about his sound and visual poems.
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Sources dealing with sound artist: sound art:

1. Douglas Lynner in Synapse, March/April 1978, p. 7 wrote: ''Stefan Weisser would describe his performance medium/music as an “analog acoustic assemblage”. I would call it a sound-producing phenomenon''.
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2. Ken Winokur in Art New England, June 1980 p. 10 wrote: …hurling industrial junk around the stage to produce a vaguely musical cacophony of noise…Z’EV modulated the sounds he produced, and organized the performance so that it structurally resembled more conventional music
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3. Rens Saunders in Vinyl Magazine, issue 4, June 1981, p20, in Dutch, described him metaphorically as a “sound typhoon” (literally translated from Dutch “geluidstyfoon”)
 * template vinyl:

4. Chris Bohn in the NME, 8th May 1982, wrote: His music is created through methods considered outside the norm…Z’EV is a powerful stage presence, whose manic energy manifests itself in a dense swirl of metallic sound that sweeps up the listener in irresistible hypnotic waves.
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5. Hopey Glass in The Wire (magazine), Issue 98, April 1992, wrote: ''Who else calls up Gods? z'ev uses his array of hanging metal objects to invoke moods which are more than just moods; to charge the airspace he's working in with the spirit he's saluting. This is an old idea - maybe the oldest - in drum-lore, but almost everyone else has lost sight or sound of it, behind a tradition of art-directed technique. A torrent, a clatter, a tumult, a vast, endless ringing; you barely get the idea on record. No surprise: as he says; "With recorded sound, the speaker cone is all you hear, and all you hear is cardboard."'' Link:
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6. Chris Toenes on website “indyweek.com” literally wrote sound artist: link:
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7. Glenn Dixon on website “Express Night Out” literally wrote sound artist, link :
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Sources dealing with the artist’s “interest”

Sources also described that he uses self constructed percussive instruments, build from found materials like stainless steel, titanium and PVC to generate orchestrations of acoustic phenomena as opposed to conventional / traditional tuning systems because of his interest in the physical properties of sound, auditory perception and acoustics, and that he doesn’t really consider the result as music.
 * 1. Hopey Glass in The Wire (magazine), Issue 98, April 1992, wrote: …z'ev uses his array of hanging metal objects to invoke moods which are more than just moods; to charge the airspace he's working in with the spirit he's saluting…No surprise: as he says; "With recorded sound, the speaker cone is all you hear, and all you hear is cardboard." Link:
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 * 2. Re/Search in the Industrial Culture Handbook, first issue 1983, 12th printing 2006, p. 111, quote: …the performance, at the sound level, deals with an evocative, experiential mode in the listener – the person listens and it gives him food for thought…
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 * 3. Dmitri Kolesnik on website:
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 * 4. Mike Hovancsek on website:
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 * 5. Chris Toenes on website “indyweek.com”:
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 * 6.Glenn Dixon on website Express Night Out:
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Je VH (talk) 20:49, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * You provide a source for the assertion that he is a percussionist above . Hyacinth (talk) 09:36, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, definitely, he is a percussionist; which is of course covered by most sources. The problem here is “whose musical interests focus on …”, and that should not have to be limited to, in this description, “percussion“. This statement was the result of these (“language”) edits, here: and here: . I also don’t understand why these edits contribute to WP:NPOV and think they are rather in conflict with WP:BLPSTYLE: Articles should document in a non-partisan manner what reliable secondary sources have published about the subject. Furthermore the initial statement can be sourced using the sources I wrote above about “poet”, “sound artist” and the artist’s "interest". So I would make the proposal here to recreate the initial sentence without the word “mystic”, being: …is an American text-sound artist and poet who is perhaps best known for his work as a catacoustic (reflected sound-based) percussionist. Je VH (talk) 20:50, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I've reduced the first sentence to "poet, percussionist and sound artist", deleted "small yet intrepid" and removed the "UK based" statement. Je VH (talk) 21:09, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Rhythmajik, Practical Uses of Number, Rhythm and Sound
The actual sentence is: This is a book on numerology and music

Proposal: change the word music into sound

The blurb, for which the “citation needed” tag was added was printed on the back cover of the book, a jpg picture can be examined here:

Rhythmajik is included in Jack Raso’s The Expanded Dictionary of Metaphysical Healthcare, Alternative Medicine, Paranormal Healing, and Related Methods, link: Link to page with letter “R” and description of the book:
 * quote: Rhythmajik: Quasicabalistic method that involves numerology and magical applications of sound.
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There’s also a description of the book at the permuted.org website, link:
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Je VH (talk) 20:49, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Face the Wound
The actual sentence is: Is a musical work inspired by opera and includes a vocal narrative.

Proposal: change sentence: Is a musical work inspired by Spieloper and includes a vocal narrative which was created from found tapes containing recorded speeches.

François Couture wrote a review about this release at the Allmusic website, link He wrote: ''The title Face the Wound refers to Z'EV's belief that many of our modern society's problems come from our refusal to admit the genocide of millions of women on account of "witchcraft." The music is actually a very powerful blend of electronic percussion that taps into an atavistic sense of rhythm (the postmodern way), simple eerie keyboard lines, and a collage of speech samples taken from a wide array of cheap tapes, from self-improvement monologues to evangelist rants''
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Another review was written by Alaric Pether at freqzine.net, link: He wrote: ''Face The Wound is a Sprache Opera, a dialogue between the male and female voices. Known for working with found sounds, Z’ev assembled the narrative of Face The Wound from 30 cassettes collected from thrift shops, garage sales, and flea markets. The rhythms of the voices mix with the rhythms of electronic percussion and electronic textures. The journey through Z’ev’s assembled narrative isn’t an easy one, I’d go as far as saying it’s apocalyptic. Scene three deals with incest. “1 + 1 = kill your parents” and laughter punctuate the ever shifting and unsettling voices. Religion is never far away. One of the sources Z’ev worked with is recordings of media evangelists. References to the end times appear again and again. Face The Wound is dark, but there’s also an uneasy catharsis. And how can there be catharsis without facing the wound? This isn’t an album to hide things. ''
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Je VH (talk) 20:49, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

The Sapphire Nature
Link to this release at the Allmusic website:
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Je VH (talk) 20:49, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

OK - I give up
The artist himself and whoever this uber fan is go to all this trouble to include all sorts of minutiae about what a trailblazer he was, and how many people drooled all over him - and yet I don't see uns mentioned ONCE? If presented with a choice of calling this an encyclopedic article, or just a slobbering piece of PR, I'm afraid I know which one I'd choose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.132.254.140 (talk) 05:09, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I have to advice you that you are encouraged to edit this page, rather than “OK – I give up” per WP:anyone can edit.
 * About “uber fan”: Please see my comment and questions about the WP:COI tag on my user talkpage.
 * About “trailblazer”: please comment my notability check, if necessary. Je VH (talk) 20:29, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Me come up in here and mess up YOUR sandbox? Thanks but no thanks, fanboy. It's your little fannish shrine. Do your own work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.132.254.140 (talk) 17:01, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

excuse me mr unsigned but in fact at one point there was the beginnings of a section on this page devoted to uns that was deleted because it was unsourced. which is a problem as there seem to be pretty much no quote reliable source unquote sources re: uns. in any event, if you should ever read this i think you owe Je VH an apology, and i don't quite understand why he didn't bother to point this out to you.Rabid-id (talk) 14:52, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Really? 30 years worth of references and recordings aren't "reliable sources"? I don't owe anybody an apology for their own lack of ability to get things done correctly. Now go away, you silly Rabid person, or I will taunt you a second time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.132.254.140 (talk) 02:21, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

remove links specifically identifying z'ev as a "jew"
it seems this issue was raised once in march of this year Category tags: Category:Jewish American musicians and Category:American Jews Proposal: remove categories

with wiki-person hyacinth writing >>> I don't think its a religious category. Hyacinth (talk) 09:34, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

and at that point the category tags have remained until now, as i have removed them

because, excuse me, but if it's not religious then what? could it be race? so since that is the logical conclusion - and please - correct me if I'm wrong here -- here follow two refutations of Jews being a race:

(from: about.com Judaism) Judaism is not a race

(from: judaism 101 at www.jewfaq.org) Jews are clearly not a race. Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits. You can't change your race; it's in your DNA. I could never become black or Asian no matter how much I might want to. Common ancestry is not required to be a Jew. Many Jews worldwide share common ancestry, as shown by genetic research; however, you can be a Jew without sharing this common ancestry, for example, by converting. Thus, although I could never become black or Asian, blacks and Asians have become Jews (Sammy Davis Jr. and Connie Chung).

Rabid-id (talk) 22:36, 20 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I think the best would be sources regarding Z'ev. Hyacinth (talk) 22:41, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
 * You're excused, I guess. "If it's not religious then what?" We have categories such as "Category:Musician" and "Category:People from New York". While it appears that neither are religious categories, that does not mean they are racial categories. Hyacinth (talk) 17:38, 1 December 2012 (UTC)