Talk:Z.Tao/Page Content Dispute 1

Ztaobb please stop modifications/updates
Hi Ztaobb,

Please note that several Tao fans are displeased with your modifications has they are not necessary and actually remove helpful and valid information about Tao.

1. Tao is not simply an actor and singer, he is a well known martial artist he has studied martial arts since the age of 5, has won many competitions and has performed as one on stage as a part of Exo and on his own, as well as in films and music videos. He also received peers acknowledgements from the likes of Jackie Chan and Michelle Yeoh who expects him to pass down over Wushu to the next generation. So it is very odd that you want to remove all traces of this extremely important and relevant fact from Tao's wikipedia page in all sections like description, early life awards etc...

2. He is a rapper he has participated in rapping competitions in china and has been acknowledged as a rapper in his ex-band and also currently trough his own words, works, publications, musical releases etc ... and he is currently being recognized has making Chinese rap more mainstream. So also strange that this relevant fact is being removed by you from his wiki page it's truly not necessary.

3. Tao his a songwriter and composer, and is credited as such in his EP's and singles and also has composed songs for external parties like the theme song for First Class and the theme song for I'm sovereign so removing the description of songwriter and composer is again unnecessary.

4.Tao has also received training has a dancer, and has performed as such in his band and also on his own. So removing Dancer is not needed.

6. References were provided for Tao's pre-debut awards section, so there is proof and a lot of fans confirmed about these so I don't know why they are being removed as they are part of Tao's achievements and relevant to his current occupation, even if it was pre-official debut as an entertainer.

5.The videography section is actually better separately, merging it with singles makes the single sections look convoluted and confusing, not all singles had MV's and also, the videography section being separate makes it clearer to see what Music Videos he released, makes is easier to add more details about them and then go to the link to view them on youtube. The page is overall more user friendly with having that videography section not being merged with singles.

In conclusion, your modifications have made Tao's fans confused and angry, the contributors have worked hard on this page and fans were happy with it's content and comprehensiveness and accurate description of Tao's endeavors as an entertainer. The general consensus is that we don't agree with what you are doing. If you have a twitter and search for Tao Wiki you will find several complaints like mine and other are thinking of filing a complaint against you with wikipedia if you continue from today.

The reason why is because your 1st justification for the changes make no sense, so we cannot agree with them, you saying things are excessive or too detailed, is not relevant because the information added is pertinent to Tao and strives to give a clear and comprehensive picture of who he is and what he has done as his Wikipedia page should. Also there is no limitation on Wikipedia on how much information can be provided it is an online encyclopedia! See for example other artist like Beyoncé or Madonna wikipages and how much details are given about them!

Your 2nd justification for your changes is also unacceptable, the fact that you want to make Tao's wikipage the same as the other Exo Ex-members is completely nonsensical. Tao is a separate entity who has accomplished different things from the other members so of course his page doesn't look the same. I can never be and doesn't have to be. Removing his accomplishments and qualifications like him being a martial artist, or composer or the awards he has won, to make it look the same as the other ex members, is frankly absurd.

To show that we are of good faith, other change that you have made that had a somewhat valid reasons have been left untouched by me like you removing Gentle bullet movie because it was not officially announced by Tao's studio, even though the preliminary details about the movie and it's casting have been released by Asian movie blogs, and the movie is in pre-production, it has been left untouched by me because no news about the start of production or the planned movie released as been announced.So we can compromise on that and wait longer before adding it to the page.

Please do no make unnecessary edits. So far 3 different people have undone or edited your work, because it is unjustifiable and unhelpful, this has become an editing war and I also saw that you were issued a warning about that.

I hope you understand and take other people's opinions into consideration and please respect the other contributor's hard work.

Ztabbb Again please stop removing valid information and adding false information to Tao's wiki page
Hi Ztaobb,

It was noticed again that you keep on removing relevant content and adding false informoration on Tao's wikipage. You just added for the Movie You are my Sunshine that Tao's role as William was a 5 minute Cameo appearance when it is untrue

It's his not a cameo it is a named role in the movie as the personal assistant of the main character played by Huang Xiaming and it last for more than 5 minutes, he appears at various times throughout the movie and it totals approximately around 9 minutes 20 secs.

So your edition was 1. untrue 2. it's now the second time it has been undone by 2 different people, because you are creating an edit war for no valid reason based on false information.

Should you continue, please note that next step I will take is to request for a Wikipedia administrator to review you for disruptive editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Versatile29 (talk • contribs) 13:47, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

The addition of "cameo" or "5 minute cameo" to his character in "You Are My Sunshine" is incorrect and unnecessary, none of his other roles are detailing his type of character, therefore it makes no sense for this character to have a "Cameo" stamp on it. In addition, per Wikipedia's definition of a cameo this character doesn't fit: "A cameo role or cameo appearance (/ˈkæmioʊ/; often shortened to just cameo) is a brief appearance or voice part of a known person in a work of the performing arts, typically unnamed or appearing as themselves." His character is named, it's relevant to the plot and has character development, please let's stop editing this section of the page. No need for "cameo" "supporting role" or any other irrelevant information for any of his movie characters. Ninoshka.sb (talk) 20:23, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Stop edit warring and discuss your changes
I have fully protected the page for the constant and ongoing content dispute in the article. Discuss the issue here on the talk page and form a consensus; the page can not be edited by anyone except administrators for three days, or until all parties involved come to an agreement which will result in the end of the edit war, in which case I will unprotect the page myself. The behavior exhibited in the edits to this page have been disruptive and unhelpful. — ξ xplicit  01:51, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Response from Ztaobb
Dispute 1 & 6: No solid proof of those martial arts competitions Tao had mentioned in some interviews and shows about his winning, but since these are achievements during his childhood and no solid proof could be digged up, I removed that. (I don't know how notable the competitions are.)

Dispute 2 & 6: No solid proof of those winning in rapping competitions Tao had never mentioned any winning in any rapping competitions.

Dispute 3: I NEVER removed Tao's credits as songwriter and composer, I only removed the credits for co-composers & lyric writers(Chinese version)

Ztaobb (talk) 05:41, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

My English is not good. I get myself framed by the accusation of Ninoshka.sb. I have to say I NEVER removed the credits of Tao, I only removed the credits for other composers & lyric writers of Tao's songs (which is originally written by me). I guess you can read the Chinese name of Tao 黃子韜. See the screen capture of the current version of wiki-page (Chinese version) below. I edited the column title as "黃子韜參與創作部分=Tao's credits in the songs"  曲=composer 詞=lyrics



Ztaobb (talk) 05:41, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Dispute 4: Removing the description of dancer My accidental removal.

Dispute 5: Merging the "Videography" & "Singles" section Every youtube links made here are ALL provided and updated by ME. No need to divide them into separate sections because every song are provided with a youtube mv link and credits for the MV Directors (which, again, is provided by ME).

Dispute 7: Tao's role in "My Sunshine" is just a cameo appearance Tao is in the "Special Guest Appearance" section in the end credits. Every news about that movie says that Tao made Cameo Appearance. What "character development" could be seen in "William"? Passing a glass of water, arranging furniture, a few lines about his background and then sitting there in a gathering silently?

'''Check every updates I made before making false accusation against me, I never update false information, and I provided tons of video links to support every of my updates. Thank you.'''

Ztaobb (talk) 11:19, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Response to Ztaobb edits
- "Those martial art competitions" are sourced, these are not notable competitions but are his achievements and properly sourced, these help built his wushu background, I don't see a need to remove them.

- It's irrelevant who put it there or what others pages said, he is a songwriter/composer and credited as such in majority of his songs, when edits were undone no need to continue editing it back.

You cannot compare Tao with other Ex-Exo members pages, as you stated to have done previously on one of your edits, because those other artists are not credited as songwriter and/or composer in majority of their songs, if any. Tao's case is more similar to artists like Taylor Swift that often write and compose for their own songs and therefore are credited as such since that is an important part of their musical identity.

- Tao's role is not a cameo. Everyone except male and female lead are listed as "Guess Appearance" in the movie credits so that argument makes no sense. See credits here:

You Are My Sunshine Credits He is listed 7th down, how many "cameos" are listed so high on credits? Is everyone, except 2 people, in that movie a cameo? Most edits done by different individuals disagree with your assessment that his role is a cameo as well.

Some information added is indeed incorrect and based on your own opinions only and not factual information. Your edits are quite distasteful(adding 5 minute cameo on his movie role) and undermine the artist achievements and an important part of his career as entertainer(removing his wushu background).

As for the rest of your edits, I have no opinion, though it would be advisable to only edit factual information from now on instead of inserting opinions, some of your edits have caused some disturbance to Tao fans and have been dicussed thorugh other social media, many are under the impression that you are disrupting his page on purpose with malicious intentions.

Ninoshka.sb (talk) 12:12, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Response to Ninoshka.sb
1. "Those martial art competitions" are NOT sourced. Once there was false information on Baidu encyclopedia that "Tao was graduated from the Music Faculty of University of Hong Kong", which anti-fans has always been using to accuse Tao of lying about his academic background. Every poorly sourced information will lead to scandal which ruins Tao. Baidu encyclopedia itself, like wikipedia, is NOT a reliable source if not provided with solid proof. I am not eligible to edit Tao's page on Baidu encyclopedia, so I update the Tao's page here in wikipedia.

2. (Chinese version) I didn't remove Tao, I only removed the co-writer/co-composers of the songs.

3. The movie centers around the two leads only. Other actors only play a very small part. Tao's role neither appears in the original novel nor in the tv dramas of the same name. In some movies, actors listed 7th might play a significant part, but not this one. Every news about Tao's appearance in this movie says Tao was making cameo appearance.

4. Check all video links I've provided for the page. Don't falsely accuse me. I always want to give factual information in tables but not in text description. Ztaobb (talk) 13:39, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Reply to Ztaobb
Dispute 1 & 6: No solid proof of those martial arts competitions

There are pictures of Tao as a child with his competition medals around his neck everywhere on Tao blogs and sites! I just googled it and found one very easily, https://www.facebook.com/EXOMex/photos/a.237314829675931.57808.237302953010452/525108264229918/?type=1&theater, on top of that you say that Tao mentioned he won them, Tao also mentioned in is people in the news interview that he was a sports student in school, so there is solid proof! If your concern is potential scandal, then I find that there is enough information to back up his claims as a legitimate martial artist, he was recognized and introduced as one by Jackie Chan himself in his movie and Michelle Yeoh both well respected martial artists, and Tao has called himself one, proven himself to be through various performances, so I seriously doubt that Tao's credentials regarding this will ever come in question and cause a scandal, or that there would be a need to lie about them, it should be ok. And again even if it was during his childhood, I find this information pertinent because it shows his path to become a renowned martial artist, it doesn't matter how notable the competition was, the point is: he participated and he won awards. I'm not the only one who appreciates having this information, so removing them based on your sole will despite the protest of more than one user as far as I know doesn't respect Wikipedia's rules.

Dispute 2 & 6: No solid proof of those winning in rapping competitions Again those awards were sourced as far as I'm concerned, Tao not mentioning them recently didn't mean it didn't happen, unless he refuted winning those competitions, this argument is not really a justification, it can go both ways.

Dispute 3: Removing the description of songwriter and composer (Chinese version)

I have not comment regarding the Chinese version. I don't read Chinese so I can't comment on what happen there, I made my comments based on your most recent behaviors, on the English page, In my talk I questioned your decision to remove them, because I saw that lately you did more than once, even after a few people put them back, and all I ask that you take into consideration other's opinions, This page is not only yours to manage, it's not a personal blog or fan site, even if you are the one that originally made the edits, others are allowed to put them back. I'm only explaining why we find this valid and pertinent to keep it as Tao works as a songwriter composer on top of being a singer, the proof is him composing and writing the theme song for First lesson TV show and then composing and writing the Theme song for the I'm sovereign video game. In the I'm sovereign press release it was specified that he was hired as both spokesperson and music producer. As for using other wiki pages as reference this can go both ways, I can use this same argument, because some have this much details and some don't, it depends a lot on the person's occupation and qualifications, and in the end what matters in the consensus or the majority opinion of the contributors of this particular page.

Dispute 5: Merging the "Videography" & "Singles" section

So you added the youtube links, does it mean that you own the sole right to decide what to do with them? Is that the point you are trying to make? Unless I am wrong? Do I have to redo them myself and then I get to say that nobody has to right to edit or use it them but me? Genuine question. Me along with others in the history appreciate having the videography section separate it looks more organized, clear and useful and allows easier additonal editing of following music videos, and which album the videos belong to who directed, them and the year they were released etc... and it's also more user friendly because merging it with the single section made the whole table look confusing, If more than one person want to keep the videography section it doesn't seem right to delete it again and again, a consensus has to be reached  or the majority opinion must be respected, so far you are the only who likes it merged with singles, at least 2 people disagreed with you on this from what I see in the history.

Dispute 7: Tao's role in "My Sunshine" is just a cameo appearance

I am only making comments based on recent behavior, and I did my own research asked for others opinions, before questioning your judgement on this and you did originally give false information you originally wrote it was a 5 minute cameo, the length is incorrect, I went on youtube and checked Tao's cut, it's 9:32 secs but I said 9:20 secs because I removed the time for the credits. I checked the credits at the end of the movie and found that every single actor aside from the male and female lead were listed under special guest appearance, no matter how long or what importance they had in the movie. I checked the definition of special guest appearance, and then cameo that another contributor provided and find that it doesn't match Tao's role. I checked the definition for supporting role and found that Tao's role fitted supporting role better but since you disagree, I asked for a compromise before to write special guest appearance instead but when I saw other contributors justification I decided to agree with them, and said to just remove remarks about the movie role altogether so everybody is happy. IMDB doesn't add those kinds of remarks on the movie pages, so we can do the same.

Basically it all comes down to this, as far as my understanding of Wikipedia's guideline goes : This page is not owned by a single contributor. Decisions should not be made arbitrarily by one single contributor, entire sourced paragraphs made by several other contributors, should not be repeatedly deleted based on the personal preference of a single contributor, the opinion and edits from other contributors must be respected. There must be a consensus or a respect of the majority opinion. Versatile29 (talk) 21:38, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Reply to Versatile29
Dispute 1 & 6: I will keep the martial arts competitions winning, but use the photos instead of Baidu encyclopedia as supporting reference

Dispute 2 & 6: No solid proof of those winning in rapping competitions You haven't provided any proof for Tao's winning in any rapping competition. Even Tao himself never mentioned he had won any. I don't think it should be kept as it is in the winning in martial arts competitions. I read from some text excerpts from "Tao's pre-debut diary" (no source at all) that Tao took part in some music performance in Hong Kong, but no competition or winning had been mentioned. I seriously doubt the winning in "Hong Kong Music Festival". As I know, "Hong Kong Music Festival" is held by Hong Kong Schools Music & Speech Association. Pop music (and Rap) is not a competing event.>>> http://www.hksmsa.org.hk/en/music-festival/music-festival-syllabus/.

Dispute 3: I NEVER removed Tao's credits as songwriter and composer, I only removed the credits for co-composers & lyric writers(Chinese version) My English is not good. I get myself framed by the accusation of Ninoshka.sb. I have to say I NEVER removed the credits of Tao, I only removed the credits for other composers & lyric writers of Tao's songs (which is originally written by me). I guess you can read the Chinese name of Tao 黃子韜. See the screen capture of the current version of wiki-page (Chinese version) below. I edited the column title as "黃子韜參與創作部分=Tao's credits in the songs"  曲=composer 詞=lyrics



Dispute 5: "Videography" section usually appears in the wiki-pages for groups, but not for solo singers

Dispute 7: OK, I don't add "cameo" note beside it, but no "supporting character" note beside it as well All news reported that Tao was only making a cameo appearance and his role never appears in the original novel nor TV drama of the same name. I can't see any so-called "character development" in passing a glass of water, arranging furniture, a few lines about his background, then sitting silently in a gathering etc

Tao's appearance on variety shows as a group should be removed As it is said at the top of the talk page, "Why is a fork from boy band needed?", Tao shows standalone notability for his albums and singles under his own name. Others pages for group-turned-solo singer/actor don't mention their work or appearance as a group, their work or appearance as a group are directed to the group's own page. "See Also: EXO Discography/Filmography" has been provided. Example: Luhan, Jackson Wang, Hangeng, Suzy.

You guys never came until the dispute over the "cameo" note beside the Tao's role

Ztaobb (talk) 05:44, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Reply to Ztaobb
Dispute 1 & 6: Awesome! Thanks.

Dispute 2 & 6: Ok, then you can remove the Hong kong festival part, since your research show that they don't have this category.

Dispute 3: We have a misunderstanding there, with the table you showed, now I see we are talking about different things. As I said in my previous talk, I'm only talking about the English page, to be more clear, I am talking about the occupation section on the left under the picture. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tao_%28entertainer%29&diff=705030392&oldid=705030226 and https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tao_%28entertainer%29&diff=705378526&oldid=705376702 Everything was removed before to only leave singer and actor, and I was referring to that. You can forget my comment because I saw that you didn't delete the occupation section or paragraphs again after it was reverted the last time. So as long as it remains same, we don't have any dispute. I don't know anything about what is going on in the Chinese page, honestly, I'm not a part of the dispute going on there.

Dispute 5: "Videography" section usually appears in the wiki-pages for groups, but not for solo singers On this I still disagree, I honestly find it looks better on the page and more understandable to have it separate from singles, Tao will continue releasing music videos and if we keep both singles and videos merge it will get more and more complicated and hard to understand, and I've seen other solo singers have a separate videography section and even a whole separate page example Beyoncé (and she used to be part of a group too) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyonc%C3%A9_videography. So please keep videography section. Same for the additional details and paragraph the other contributors add I find them interesting, I like to read a detailed wikipedia page and it's not uncommon again example of beyonce international superstar look how much detail on her page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyonc%C3%A9 and madonna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_%28entertainer%29 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_videography.

Dispute 7: Great! Then we all agree, we won't put description of his movie role so everybody wins.

Tao's appearance on variety shows as a group should be removed As it is said at the top of the talk page Did I revert this too while doing undo for the other disputes? If I did, then it was an accident, I really didn't pay to attention to that part and I really don't care, both ways seem ok to me, discuss this with the contributor that doesn't agree with you.

'''In conclusion for me the only thing remaining to resolve with you is the Dispute 5 videography section. I appreciate you cooperating and showing your reasoning and research for your edits, and listening to my opinion, I now better understand your intentions. I personally have no bad feelings towards you.''' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Versatile29 (talk • contribs) 15:46, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Reply to Ztaobb
Dispute 2 & 6: No solid proof of those winning in rapping competitions

I agree with this, I have no problem if those rap compettions get removed since there's hardly any evidence.

Dispute 3: I NEVER removed Tao's credits as songwriter and composer, I only removed the credits for co-composers & lyric writers(Chinese version)

Why are you saying I "framed you"? I only responded to your "disputes" I suggest you to remove that unnecesary comment. If you have problems understanding English correctly, please ask for clarification, or quote me where I "framed you". This part is sort of ridiculous, but I guess we agree so whatever.

Dispute 5: "Videography" section usually appears in the wiki-pages for groups, but not for solo singers

I think it looks better separated and is easier to understand.

Dispute 7: OK, I don't add "cameo" note beside it, but no "supporting character" note beside it as well

It seems we all agree on this as well, since no "cameo" or any other remark was the initial request.

Tao's appearance on variety shows as a group should be removed

I agree with this as well.

You guys never came until the dispute over the "cameo" note beside the Tao's role

This is kind of irrelevant, the page is not yours but I'll explain: we came forward because your edits were bought up in social media, as I already explained on my first reply, and part of the fandom took notice on what was considered wrongful edits, it's nothing personal.

Ninoshka.sb (talk) 12:51, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Sohu has spread lots of malicious rumors about Tao, I don't think it should be mentioned in the page
http://m.tv.sohu.com/20160113/v2510361.shtml?channeled=1211010100&aid=6951134 <<< 150812 "Sohu K-Pop news program" Find somebody who understand Chinese to watch this program. It says that Tao always speaks foul language, always pass around for sex and even had sex with EXO's fans!!!Ztaobb (talk) 04:23, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

1) The paparazzi from Sohu tracked Tao on 14101x, taking photos of Tao while he was having gathering with friends, and it said that Tao was having goodbye-kiss with a girl during a gathering.

2) It spread the rumors made by Sina Entertainment that Tao was big-headed, that Tao was irritated by being said that he bore a resemblance to a senior, that Tao refused video interview etc.

3) It spread tons of rumors made by Tao's anti-fans and the parties who want to bring Tao down.

Ztaobb (talk) 00:30, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Sohu
We already know about gossips and your link is broken.

What does what Sohu said in the past has to do with the "50 most beautiful people in the world" list? You are linking two totally unrelated things and all these type of News sources report on gossips, that's not anything ground-breaking.

It's not about what we want to have on the page, Wikipedia is a informational page and should be factual about an artists accomplishments, the list is not irrelevant; I honestly don't see what's your point in removing that, if you got some beef with Sohu that's irrelevant and not a valid reason to remove it. You seem really prompt to remove positive information from this page without regard or discussion about whether your edits are acceptable or not.

Please kindly stop editing the page everyday to remove information as you see fit because you "don't think we will want the info on the page", this is getting ridiculous, that's not a valid reason to remove information.

Ninoshka.sb (talk) 00:01, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

==I've edit the Sohu link. It also says that Tao always speaks dirty language, always pass around for sex, and had sex with EXO's fans!!!! I don't want readers to mistake Sohu as a good, fair and reliable media outlet== http://m.tv.sohu.com/20160113/v2510361.shtml?channeled=1211010100&aid=6951134 <<< 150812 "Sohu K-Pop news program" Find somebody who understand Chinese to watch this program. It says that Tao always speaks foul language, always pass around for sex and even had sex with EXO's fans!!!

Ztaobb (talk) 04:23, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Due to the edit war
Hi Ztaobb,

Well, I got a complaint about me being involved in an edit war with you, in which I was told to talk it out here. So, this is regarding your last few modifications:

1. I'm sure Sohu did say negative things about Zitao, however this is not a reason to not mention articles from them talking positively            about him. If we were to like exclude every single article written by an organisation, company, etc. that treated him as horribly as they did, then which one would we be able to mention? Almost everyone wanted to and did say negative things about him just so they could make more money or get attention. Now, we shouldn't think about the past and look forward towards the future, because I'm sure Zitao will give them more reasons to write nice articles about him.

2. You complained about me only adding 'Running Man' and 'EXO's Showtime' despite there having been like 36 other variety shows he participated in during his time as an EXO and EXO-M member. Well, the reason is very simple: I had forgotten about some of them, while the others I wasn't even aware of. So instead of deleting my edits over and over again just because of that reason, you should have added all the other variety shows, it would have been a much nicer solution and this 'edit war' would have been easily avoided.

If you want to say anything or argue about something related to Zitao's page, then please do feel free to reply. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CaPoRt (talk • contribs) 18:42, 28 February 2016 (UTC)