Talk:Zab Judah

Comment
i think that someone with more time than i have and that saw judah-baldomir should add a few sentences about judah's performance in the fight. Streamless 20:23, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

The Judah family have jewish names. Are they Black Hebrew Israelites, or mainstream jews? Maya Levy 03:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Black Hebrew Israelite. He says so in this interview (last paragraph). ArcTheLad 23:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Then is it safe to remove the "Black Jews" tag? He about as Jewish as a McDonalds bacon double cheeseburger with a side of fatback pork.68.189.255.6

Ethnicity
I have removed this for now. --Tom 13:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Zab Judah isn't Jewish
What better source could you have then Zab Judah himself? Watch minute 7:00 of this video where Zab thanks his "lord and savior Jesus Christ." This clearly shows he's not Jewish in his own words. It's correct that he's a Black Hebrew Israelite. http://youtube.com/watch?v=BpVlaVy12hE Enegue 23:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Since this ongoing discussion is taking place on my talk page as well, perhaps we should move those comments here, and continue discussing it here?


 * Actually, am moving it here ... below ...


 * I did a few minutes of googling, and quickly found the following.


 * "An African-American whose family has declared themselves Jewish ...*"Zab Judah"


 * "According to Jewish lineage, the story of the son always begins with the father; it is the father who defines and grounds the son. The principle seems to be alive and well in the Judah family.  Yoel Judah, an avowed Israelite or Black Jew, is the undisputed ruler of his clan.""AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH YOEL JUDAH,"


 * "The best Jewish fighter of all time—Zab Judah—is a bore in the ring." "IS BOXING RELEVANT?"


 * "Zab Judah ... Of Hebrew heritage ... Jewish Boxers" Boxrec


 * Not a source, but a literature reference, is the following: ""Zab Judah is the only Yid champ left!" I said loudly to no one in particular but to everybody specifically. "Naturally, they'll never make the Hebe the headline bout, the Nazi bastards!" "Shanda: the making and breaking of a self-loathing Jew, by Neal Karlen, Chapter 1: Uncle Tom Jew"


 * That's way more support in aggregate than I see in that article for any other factoid.


 * By the way, if you want to look at deleting some completely unsourced material, or getting sources for it, look at the acquaintences section .....--Epeefleche 00:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * If you want to put in both those citations, and your url ... works for me. But deleting that he is Jewish in the face of these citations would not seem right.  Work for you?--Epeefleche 23:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * What you have failed to take into account is that the sources in "The Boxing Judahs" are not first-hand sources and they got their information because the Judahs call themselves Israelites (also indicated in the sources above) and wear Jewish apparel such as the Star of David on some of their clothes. The sources actually indicate that Judah is an (Black Hebrew)"Israelite" (which is correct) and a Jew (which is incorrect).  What settles this whole debate is the source I provided, the youtube link.  This clearly and incontrovertibly proves that Judah is not Jewish since Jews do not believe that Jesus Christ is their savior, which is exactly what Zab Judah said.  Since this comes directly from Zab Judah's mouth, this source obviously has much more weight than any outside source and invalidates contradictory statements.  Given this information, please delete the part about Zab Judah being Jewish. Enegue 03:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi. If anyone else is reading this, to see the comment that Engue is referring to above, you most look further up on the page to my comments at the section entitled "The Boxing Judahs."


 * Enegue -- Sadly, I do not have access to sound at the moment, so I cannot listen to the Youtube url to which you directed me. But I have no problem with your reflecting it in the article ... go right ahead, as far as I am concerned.


 * As to the sources that I cited above, they are all fine sources. Wiki does not require direct quotes of every fact.  These sources speak for themselves, and when I have a moment I will put them into the bios as appropriate to augment the points that they make.  You should feel free to put in your url.  I would do it for you, but cant listen.


 * And your comment does not support that the were not jewish.Epeefleche 19:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I also invite you to insert a link to the url, which sadly, due to computer problems, I can't access at the moment.

While I haven't heard it, I gather that for one thing it is the only citation that differs from my sources. Possibly. Even if it were as strong as a statement that "I am not a Jew," under wiki policy that would not lead to the elimination of prior citations to his having been Jewish at earlier points. It would just count for that moment.

And we have not even explored your suggestion that he cannot be Jewish if he made such a statement. I'm not convinced, but would happy to hear more. Are Jews for Jesus non-Jews? Can he be a Jew, but view the (Jewish) Jesus as the messiah that the Jews have been waiting for?

I'm not clear on the second issue, but am on the first. If he is cited as Jewish in a number of souces such as these (we stay away from blogs, for example), that sufficiently supports inclusion of that factoid here. Feel free to add the url that you point to, as far as I am concerned, as well. Tx. Epeefleche 19:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * No, "Jews for Jesus" are not considered Jews. Most of the sources that we're debating do not show that Judah is a Jew. The 1st one says his "family declared themselves Jewish." So what? I can declare myself to be a Martian, it doesn't make me one. The 2nd source says "an avowed Israelite or Black Jew." Once again all this points to is that he is a Black Hebrew Israelite, who claim Jewish descent, but this is not supported by the mainstream Jewish community, just like "Jews for Jesus" is not accepted. The 4th source doens't even clearly say Judah is Jewish, it only has a category called "Jewish Boxers" at the bottom of a webpage...Maybe someone forgot to take him off the list since there is NO mention of it in his BIO, that doesn't seem weird to you? The Jewish boxers on that website have mention of being Jewish in their bio, Judah does not. So in the end you have only 2 sources that have any support for Judah being Jewish, even though they are clearly incorrect since Jews do not believe that Jesus is their lord and savior. How can it possibly get any clearer than that, coming directly from Zab Judah's own mouth on national television? There's even a link above in this page which referred to an article about Zab Judah being a Black Hebrew Israelite just like I said.


 * I can write in several sentences about the controversy about Zab Judah's religion in his Bio, maybe that will be even better than removing it all together. But I will write-in everything I feel should be said to give an accurate description of the real Zab Judah. Enegue 23:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * OK ... I sought to summarily present both the above citations that relate to his being considered Jewish, and the url that you raised. Feel free to look at it and augment it of course, as appropriate.--Epeefleche 16:26, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Alright, thanks. I simply added a sentence in the beginning of the Miscellaneous section introducing the reader to the fact that Judah's religion is a debatable issue. Also, I thought it was improper to leave the sentence which called him one of the four great Jewish boxers if his religion is unclear, so I changed it to a "if Judah is considered Jewish then he is ..." - I think that is pretty fair. I left in all the stuff you wrote, and lastly I added in the general fact that people who call themselves "Jews" but believe in Jesus are not recognized as Jews by the mainstream Jewish community. I added one more link I found in addition to the youtube video to show that Judah is not considered Jewish. Just a sidenote I would like to stress related to this discussion: Judah can say he's Jewish all he wants, that is no problem. The problem is an encyclopedia recognizing someone as Jewish when they say they believe that Jesus is their lord and savior. It's like if someone who did not believe in Jesus at all called themselves Christian - it simply goes against the definition of the term "Christian" just like believing in Jesus contradicts the definition of "Jewish" (in a mainstream sense).Enegue 11:05, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Nice working with you.  Revised it some more, along your lines I believe.  Do you really think it makes sense to add the url to that list?  It indicates that it is in its early stages, and in no way does it purport to be exhaustive.  Also, can you throw in something that supports your claim that if someone thanks Jesus that no mainstraim Jews no matter how liberal would consider them Jewish? I think that unless you support it it is POV.  But I'll leave it in for now so you can then provide the support for it.  Thanks.--Epeefleche 01:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the link: I think it's possible that it is indeed in it's early stages as a whole, however the details about Zab Judah appear to be complete. I think it is as exhaustive as possible. If you think it is not exhaustive simply because the author said people should contact him if they have any other information, I think it's perfectly reasonable for an author to take suggestions...after all isn't that how Wikipedia works?


 * Hi. The links states that "This list is just beginning .... This list will never be fully complete."  I don't believe we can jump from that statement to the assumption that, as you suggest, Judah's absence from the list -- which is admittedly incomplete -- is proof that Judah is not Jewish.  Do you see how I see it?

Regarding the issue of POV vs. Fact about Jews not believing in Jesus: I will quote from an article directly from Wikipedia - "One of the most important Jewish principles of faith is the belief in one God and one God only with no partnership of any kind, and belief in Jesus as deity, son of God, or Christ, is incompatible with Judaism." This is support that mainstream Jews (or any Jews really) cannot believe that Jesus is their "lord and savior," - if they do, then they are not Jews. Should I link the Wikipedia article to support that statement in the Zab Judah page? Enegue 22:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)


 * No need to link to the article. It is of course a Wiki.  Either the statement has a citation, or not.  If unsourced, it would have the force of either of us writing that (or its opposite) in here.  Nothing more.  So it would not be helpful.  If sourced, however, I would simply cite the source (assuming it is an appropriate one).


 * If it is not sourced, one thing that you might do is put in a citations tab. That may prompt an editor to see if they can source it.  If I get a chance I may look for it and do so.  Contra, btw, see [Tx.--Epeefleche 23:47, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I know about Jews For Jesus and according to the Wiki article which is heavily sourced they are not accepted as a Jewish organization. Like I said from the very beginning, there is a discrepancy between what groups call themselves and how they are actually perceived by the rest of the world. Jews for Jesus can call themselves whatever they want - Jews, Martians, descendants of God - it doesn't matter...just because they have the word "Jews" in the name of their group doesn't make them Jews. There is overwhelming evidence to show this and it's obvious to any objective person with any knowledge of theology that Zab Judah is not Jewish (the proof being in what Judah said), but I am fine with leaving the article the way it is right now. I will go ahead and put in some sources to show that belief that Jesus is the lord and savior is not consistent with mainstream Judaism. Thanks. Enegue 00:35, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, sorry for the reiteration, but even if that were evidence of anything, it would be evidence only as to that point in time. Without more.  I think you are spot on, in that as things stand they mention the information from which people can draw their own conclusions, rather than have any of us editors in any way push our POV overly.  Btw, I also left you thought on a url a few para above.  Good work. --Epeefleche 03:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I am glad we were able to come to a reasonable conclusion and I agree it is better to lay out the facts and let the readers decide. Regarding the link I added: I do not think the absence of Zab Judah from the list is any kind of evidence he is not Jewish, but if you search for "zab" on that webpage, there is a paragraph or two of info on Zab Judah in the "Keith Holmes" sub-section which states, "Addition--to end the same questions--based on what we know--which isn't complete--welterweight champ Zab Judah also appears to belong to a group that calls itself Jewish, but whose theology is not recognizably Jewish by even the most "liberal" standards. We take a very liberal view on Jewhoo on listing people. If they have a Jewish parent we usually list them. If they have a Jewish grandparent and practice Judaism, we list them. We do try to tell the visitor how the person identifies. However, with all due respect to Zab Judah, a great fighter, we have to draw some lines. And one of those lines is that we unequivocally maintain that someone is not Jewish, by religion, if that person practices a religion (whatever it is called) that includes strong elements of Christianity." I think that information is as complete and descriptive as possible. That is the part that I was looking to add as support for that statement in the article in addition to the others. Enegue 04:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Got it. (now).  Tx!  Big fight coming up.  Let's see if he thanks Mohammed this time.--Epeefleche 06:35, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Haha! Yeah, I am looking forward to seeing the fight as well! Before, I would be watching just for the fight, but now I am curious to see what Judah says at the end too. Judah seems to be the underdog according to all of the sports betting websites, let's see what happends - it should be a very interesting matchup. Enegue 09:29, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Once again, someone rewrote the article. That's fine, I don't mind. However, there was information taken out that was previously there. If you're going to write that Zab Judah is Jewish, fine, but you have to include the opposing POV which clearly shows that he's not. I put in the text that was taken out, along with the link to the Youtube video which shows Judah thanking "his lord and savior Jesus Christ" which clearly indicated that he's not Jewish, or at least wasn't at the time of that statement. So if anyone is planning to rewrite the article, fine, but don't erase half of a POV and leave the other half in. That's completely unbalanced. Enegue (talk) 03:54, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I only deleted it, because there were no sources, but I don't think the part about him being one of the top jewish fighters is necessary.Showtime (talk) 05:43, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good, I agree with you. That part was not needed.Enegue (talk) 06:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I deleted the last sentence of the relevant paragraph, which was (1) completely unnecessary and (2) potentially constituted original research (at least as it had been written and sourced). There is plenty of context there without further exploring the idea that he isn't Jewish: he's a Black Hebrew Israelite = he claims to be Jewish but isn't accepted as such by others since he believes in the divinity of Christ. The link to the Black Hebrew Israelite page suffices for people who want more information about why it's confusing. The current last sentence of the paragraph (previously the penultimate sentence of the paragraph) should probably be rewritten to say that his claim to Judaism is controversial because of the quoted statement, rather than saying that it's confusing; it's only confusing to people who refuse to try to understand the position of Black Hebrew Israelites. 82.139.118.219 (talk) 14:31, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Decided I'd just reword the new last sentence too. It could sound better, but it's both more accurate and more appropriate for Wikipedia now. 82.139.118.219 (talk) 14:36, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Jewish heritage debate
His blood lineage is clearly Jewish. If he supports Jesus Christ, then his profile should reflect that he is a Jew who converted to Christianity. LaLaBand (talk) 15:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

No Contests
Does anyone know how many no contests he had, and can they correct the article? It used to say 1. Someone just deleted that, leaving it blank (rather than "0"). And the following indicates 2 --. Tx. --Epeefleche 18:28, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Pic
We used to have a picture. Might someone be able to add one? Tx.--Epeefleche 11:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Brothers?
How can Zab and Daniel Judah be brothers? They were born only two and a half moths apart. Do they have different mothers? LarRan 13:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
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