Talk:Zach Auguste

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Could you please justify your actions on the article? The info you removed was 100% properly referenced and relevant to the subject of the article. Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) a penny for your thoughts? 15:04, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Sure Hansi667, the lead or in more detail: "He is of mixed Haitian-Greek ancestry. Born in Cambridge, Massachusetts, Auguste played high school basketball for Marlborough High School and New Hampton prep school..." ...is mentioned twice the other places being his high school career and personal life. This removal of the lead was the -201. His personal life, I essentially split into two creating an "early years" section, mentioning his heritage and place of birth etc. Not sure what sources I have removed. Also is it necessary to say that he is fluent in English when he was born and raised in the U.S.? Seems redundant to me, like saying Brad Pitt is fluent in English. Thanks for the good faith. Savvyjack23 (talk) 16:22, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * That's the point of the lead:to summarize things said in the main body of the article. The Personal section is even used in good articles (e.g. Pau Gasol, Lauren Jackson). Basketball player biographies tend to firstly present basketball related material before anything else and the main subject of the Zach Auguste's article is his basketball career (that's why he establishes notability anyway). Other than that it's plainly ugly to have two sections with a few words in each of them, especialy when they can be together under the same section. As for the English language thing, it doesn't hurt anyone. It is a common practice to include one's native language in a list of his/her spoken language list (here, here, here and here. It could be changed to something like In addition to Eglish he speaks Greek and Haitian Creole, if that suits you better. I'll be waiting for your answer, before I proceed to any further action. Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) a penny for your thoughts? 16:56, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Hansi667, while it is not uncommon to include one's schooling in the lead, it is very unstylistic to include his heritage (unless he is a dual citizenship), and place of birth which can be explained in an early years section that this article should have and expanded upon like any good article. See; Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh. If we must keep something from the lead, I think it would be his schooling. As for his ancestry, it is most common under early years, or personal life (which usually is stub or start articles with lacking details about the early background years).

I understand that it may look a bit ugly now because the section is not filled but that's precisely why I created it, to expand upon his early years and childhood even either by me or any other editor who wishes to expand it. I only set the initiative. To me, personal life is more like, what religion he/she belongs to, marriage & children, etc. I do not look at ancestry to be too personal. You will find this to be more common among higher rated articles. As for language, I am open to using the words, "in addition to English, he is also fluent in..." I have used this sentence structure in the past. Believe me, I only wish to improve, not to retract or to make articles uglier. I'll make another change, let me know if it will be suffice. I'll attempt to reinstate his schooling into the lead, improve language section and dig up some more information about his upbringing/early years. By the way, Lauren Jackson having "Personal" after the lead instead of "Early years" is extremely uncommon and I know that you know that. Savvyjack23 (talk) 20:39, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Unstylistic is not a wikipedia policy. His heritage is described in the article, and since the lead is there to summarize the article, it should also be included. Birthplace and schooling are pretty standard in basketball bios. Both of them. In the form it was written. Secondly good articles have nothing to do with article length. If ancestry is not personal what is it? Anyway you are more than welcome to expand the article, but you can't impose your stylistic preferences on it without any prior discussion. I'll reinstate the article to its initial structure and add the language sentence. Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) a penny for your thoughts? 21:42, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Plus, believe me, there is no more info on him currently. Maybe, if he makes it to the NBA, we'll get many stories, but that's all for now. Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) a penny for your thoughts? 21:47, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Hansi667, I did not realize you just made an edit. I've added "in addition to English, he also speaks..." Added, the place where his mother is from among other changes (1 win shy from school record etc.) Again, I do not agree with the lead including his mixed ancestry. Also, if there is more information out there about his life, the early years section will serve a purpose. Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:01, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Hansi667, by the way I've noticed that you have this article nominated for a GA. Honestly, it's not even a B yet (not even close). So if you are vying for that by making sure there doesn't look like any vague sections, then we have a problem because this article has a lot of room for growth and I would like to see the information on this page for it to even be considered for a GA which I believe lacks a considerable amount. Let's try to reach a compromise. Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:11, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Please check the latest. I've tried to keep it as close to the wording you have used. Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:18, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * No you didn't. It's like this conversation never happened for you. You just restored your initial version of the article. Please provide a valid explanation why information on his ancestry should not be included in the lead. Please explain why we should have two sections (early life and personal) when that info could be included in one, and be 100% clear. Also note that you cannot tell that he attends the St. Anargyroi Church. The reference states that he attended in the past. What you did would be WP:OR. Finally, some info that you added in the college career section, is not completely relevant to the subject of the article. The subject isZzach Auguste and not Notre Dame Fighting Alumni men's basketball. Additionally you support that sentence on two references, although the first (the Greek one) doesn't say anything about the issue. Finally, article class is not based on your stylistic preferences, or article length. Good articles are reviewed against the GA criteria. It's also certain that it reaches the criteria to be classified as B. Twitter account? Facebook account? I checked your edits, and I'm not happy whatsoever. You barely added any useful info to the article and insisted on imposing your stylistic preferences. Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) a penny for your thoughts? 22:39, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Please familiarize yourself with this. Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) a penny for your thoughts? 22:44, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Hansi667, first of all Twitter is one of the leading media outlets that come directly from the primary source. (Facebook, personal) It is also used in Presidential debates etc. Why do you not explain why there should be one section? If there is more information on him like you are saying, an "early years" section is inevitable! Also, the only reason why Zach Auguste has an article is because he plays for Notre Dame. How doesn't it involve him, if they had the most wins since 1908??? I came to this article originally and his place of birth was mentioned 3 times! (lead, table, and personal) That's ridiculous. If you don't think so I'll open a real discussion. Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:50, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Prior to my involvement it said "attending the St. Anargyroi church in Marlborough, Massachusetts," that is the same present tense form of "attends." So no WP:OR (by me anyway).Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:53, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * My stylistic preferences? I can show you 1000 good articles constructed this way with a simple stroke of the key. Again, an early years section is inevitable. Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:56, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * This is the revision from your original edits to mine . Simply moved ancestry and birth from lead to "early years." Removed birth from personal as it mentions this 3 times as explained above and added his parents to coincide with his ancestry in early years. There's more information? So this section while be filed indefinitely, along with an expansion of his personal life as we await what happens to him down the road (NBA bound?). Its the same information, no removal; please allow others to expand on it. Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:03, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't claim owneraship on the article. When and if new information is available to support a new section, you could freely add that section. At the moment there is no further information and it would give better flow to the article to be presented in one section (personal), as it was. On the other hand I could show 1000 GAs that don't have a early life section. What's your point? I know what twitter is. I'm not used on seeing twitter accounts on BLPs. I could be wrong though on this. The present tense should be right on that church attendance matter. I've just read the source again. The 32-6 mark, IMHO, shouldn't be at the beginning of the paragraph, but somewhere approaching the end. Although you don't like the POB 3-4 times in the article that's how it should be. As I said before the lead should summarize what the rest of the article says. POB and DOB are important info and should be in the lead. Infobox is standardized and contains POB. That recruitment table is also standard and it includes DOB. You haven't explained, why his ancestry shouldn't be in the lead. Anyway, I 'll start a discussion in the article's talk page. Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) a penny for your thoughts?


 * So show me articles were "ancestry" is mentioned in the lead. I get that it would "look" better to have the early section and personal combined (you already mentioned in your opinion it looks ugly; in your opinion), but I believe this section could be expanded (didn't you say there was more information?) as we learn more about him. Reword 32-6, however makes the most sense. I've added it because that should be a merit to him, his coaches and teammates (they had arguably the best team), and his was a surefire reason. The church the same, however it is said in the source and what's best. Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:30, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * By the way, the lead is what was striking, which led me to move it into an early years section, in which I improved upon by using information from "Personal." On his life, (not his career), was repetitive all the way through. Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:36, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * If he was a citizen of one of those countries, then I would beg its inclusion. When discussing his parents, its customary to include this as it compliments the subject. Show me a source where it says, "Zach Auguste the Greek-Haitian ancestral athlete, but American." This is a poor style of writing. It would say American Zach Auguste and in following sections mention his parents and his mixed ancestry. This is an article, not a promotion for any said country. He's American, who so happens to have Greek and Haitian blood. Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:43, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * If you must, for the time being (for the lack of early years information) I am not adverse to reinstating birth to the lead, but not again to the personal (unless you want to mention that he grew up in the Boston metropolitan area). Reinstating both personal and early into personal, but with the subtraction of a Haitian-Greek ancestry in the lead, however then this information would be all the way on the bottom which is a poor choice as well which is another reason why I've added early years and eventually can be expanded upon. Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:47, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * You also accuse me of having it my "stylistic way" but yet you would have it return to the way it was last edited by you. I am open to compromise, but I am really baffled by your judgement, especially for a veteran on Wikipedia. Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:49, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Look at this, your very own articles that you created; Stefan Bonneau, Brooke de Lench and Malcolm Grant (basketball). The first two have a "early years or personal life" section following the lead (good job), not including POB, however in Malcolm Grant (basketball) there is (which I don't care about as long as it is not mentioned exhaustively). None, refer to ancestry in the lead. Ancestry and nationality or POB are two different things. Savvyjack23 (talk) 00:07, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Those articles didn't have an early life plus a personal section. My objection is that there is too little info to have two sections, on issues that could be included in the Personal section that was previously there. IF in the future there is more info on him, many more sections could be created. There is no reason to create them in advance. The POB in those articles is mentioned in the lead, in the infobox, in the main body of the article (plus in the recruitment table for Malcolm Grant). It's pretty standard this way. In the last months I mainly edit bball player articles, and I've seen the same many times. As for the lack of any mentioning of ancestry in those other articles, I wasn't able to find any reliable source citing anything about their ancestries and it is not mentioned anywhere in the article. As for Auguste he's in the possible call-ups for the Greek national basketball team for the 2015 Eurobasket (passport to be issued this summer), although hardly relevant with our argument. Anyway the more people that participate in this conversation, the easier it would be to find a solution. No hard feelings (hating WP:WAR, nothing against you). Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) a penny for your thoughts? 01:13, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Okay, but as I stated above my main concern lies with ancestry in the lead. Please reread what I am proposing (even though lengthy) so I do not have to sound repetitive. Savvyjack23 (talk) 02:06, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I am going to give my input on this matter, because it seems like this argument will never end at this point:


 * The ancestry should only be mentioned in the "personal" section, along with his date and place of birth. I have a good article, Yuta Watanabe, that has the player's birth info in "personal," and I believe that should be done in this case to even the sections out.
 * In the case that Auguste represents Greece internationally, it should be noted that "he is American, but has experience with the Greek NT."
 * The lead should only include Auguste's greatest basketball achievements along with his schooling. The ancestry would be excluded, because it's not as if he is one of the first players of Greek or Haitian descent to play college basketball. Not that Haiti would be included either way, as it is a small country. Sim Bhullar is a different case, because India is far larger. TempleM (talk) 16:32, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your input TempleM. Savvyjack23 (talk) 17:07, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I still haven't read a valid reason on why the ancestry info shouldn't be included in the lead.
 * As per WP:LEAD: The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies. The notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources. Apart from trivial basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article. The lead is the first part of the article most people read, and many only read the lead. Consideration should be given to creating interest in reading more of the article, but the lead should not "tease" the reader by hinting at content that follows. Instead, the lead should be written in a clear, accessible style with a neutral point of view; it should ideally contain no more than four well-composed paragraphs and be carefully sourced as appropriate.
 * The inclusion of his ancestry in the lead creates interest in reading more of the article. Even you Savvyjack23 said that it was striking. That's my point. Additionally, per WP:DISPUTE, responding in tone (That's ridiculous.) is certainly not considered constructive. Expressions like: "If we must keep something from the lead, I think it would be his schooling.", "To me, personal life is more like, what religion he/she belongs to, marriage & children, etc. I do not look at ancestry to be too personal." is contradiction (states the opposing case case, with little or no supporting evidence). Savvyjack23, please also note, that I perceived your "I know that you know that" statement as pretty aggressive towards me. Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) a penny for your thoughts? 19:17, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes striking only because of a personal interest in what was said (forget the fact that it was bizarrely placed). So yes, mentioning his ancestry in the lead is not what makes him notable. As mentioned before, if he were to have citizenship of one of those countries (or even both for that matter) it would be important to include, or even if he spent significant time in one of those countries growing up; these reasons might have impacted his career. This article is about an American college basketball player. That is the lead. His achievements follows briefly.


 * Furthermore, Hansi667 do not pull that aggressive card at me, I've been doing nothing but trying to find neutral ground. The fact is that his ancestry has nothing to do with his notability. If he was the first Greek or Haitian descended player to play in the NCAA that would be a different story, but he's not. Savvyjack23 (talk) 19:32, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Savvyjack23 WP:LEAD reads:[...]The lead is the first part of the article most people read, and many only read the lead. Consideration should be given to creating interest in reading more of the article[..]. The policy doesn't say that the lead should contain only' info that makes the subject notable.
 * I think we are both trying to find that neutral ground. But reading those statements made me feel uncomfortable, to say at least. Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) a penny for your thoughts? 20:11, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Saying that I know that you know that having a "personal" section to follow the lead is less common that an "early years" section made you feel uncomfortable? Really? Savvyjack23 (talk) 20:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Ryan Arcidiacono is an example of a "good article" about a college basketball player that is about the same size as this one. As included in Arcidiacono's article, included in the lead is a brief description of a high school achievement, and following that—a few sentences about his collegiate highlights/awards. Another example is Fred VanVleet, that has a very similar lead paragraph. In my opinion, and as I stated before, the fact that Auguste has Haitian and Greek roots does not belong in the lead unless he plays for the Greece national basketball team. But personally, I do not believe it is a situation big enough to have an argument as lengthy or intense as this one. TempleM (talk) 20:56, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I cannot agree more. Savvyjack23 (talk) 20:58, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with TempleM. This debate is frankly ridiculous. ~ EDDY  ( talk / contribs ) ~ 21:25, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * The length is obviously ridiculous for such a minor subject. But reaching consensus can be hard at times. That's the strength (and weakness at the same time) of Wikipedia. Anyway I'll make a proposal: the Personal and Early life sections can be merged in one (both Ryan Arcidiacono and Fred VanVleet have one of them). I think a Personal section would be a better fit, but it could work either way. Here's the proposal:Auguste was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts to Lea Tzimoulis and Jean Bazile Auguste. He is of mixed Haitian-Greek ancestry; his mother from Kozani, a town in northern Greece, and his father a native of Haiti. In addition to English, Auguste also speaks Greek and Haitian Creole fluently. Auguste attends the St. Anargyroi church in Marlborough.. The lead should also get some expansion. We could add that he was named in Midwest Regional All-Tournament First-team in this year's tournament. POB could also get some space in the lead. It is present in some article (LeBron James, Jabari Parker, Mitch McGary) while it is not in others (Jahlil Okafor, Ryan Arcidiacono, Fred VanVleet, Anthony Davis). Good night and good luck (it's 2am here in Greece)! Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) a penny for your thoughts? 22:56, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Personnally I find a more concise lead much better than a long, winding one, even the articles linked are too long, even more so for in effect amateur players. I could just say that a version that doesn't containt glaring grammatical errors such as "In addition to English, he is also fluent in Greek and Haitian Creole fluently" but I'll develop quickly. His ancestry shouldn't be in the lead, it is not at all what makes him notable and from the difficulty of finding sources for it (a youtube video is the "best") is clearly not that important. It would have its place in a single personnal section (what's wrong with just "Personnal life" by the way?), as to why "active in the ? church" became "he attends ? church" I don't understand. That's my vote on the subject, this debate is ridiculously long and being from Greece, Hansi667 shouldn't make you push anything vaguely related to the country in my opinion. --ArmstrongJulian (talk) 23:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * That fluent/fluently error was the result of consecutive edits. Obviously the sentence is accepted in its current (Savvyjack23's) form ("In addition to English, Auguste also speaks Greek and Haitian Creole fluently."). After all, this is how I mention it in my last proposal. I think that we have settled that the ancestry won't be included in the lead, so I can't really understand why you bring it up again. The source about his Haitian heritage complies with WP:SELFSOURCE, so it's not a matter if you consider the source important or not. The citation about his Greek ancestry is a third party reliable source. Nothing wrong with a Personal section. We fully agree on this. Your allegations that I try to push Greece/Greek related content is against WP:AGF. I just try to make Wikipedia a better encyclopedia, by adding useful information, based on reliable sources, in fields that I feel thtat I can.. Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) a penny for your thoughts? 08:27, 10 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I admit my phrasing was hazy, in my defense it was also late in the night for me at the time. To clarify I'm not implying you are peddling lies, just that you'd naturally accord more importance to a point that would not be seen the same way by the neutral public, I very much believe your edits are in good faith. Now for the content, I included the erroneous sentence above not in order to be pedantic but because the contrast between the discussion in the talk page and the content of the article was striking, spending more time on the second than the first would seem more productive. Here are my suggestions, again only my opinion but that's one brick in the consensus wall: The lead should only include why he is notable including major achievements, awards or life events. To be honest I'm not really sure why he is notable, the high school career should only be included for exceptional results (as there's no national championship those are personal awards in general) and he was only nominated for the Mc-Donalds awards. It would appear to be his junior season that makes him notable, the best collective season for Notre Dame during his tenure there, plus he got some measure of personnal awards (ESPN palyer of the week, Midwest Regional all-tournament team, might as well link it too), I don't see why more needs to be included in the lead, read the rest of WP:LEAD article and it mentions importance to the subject, according to published reliable sources. Personnal life seems fine as it is, with the caveat that it could be more fluid, I would suggest something like "Auguste was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts to Greek and Haitian parents. His mother, Lea Tzimoulis, is from the city Kozani in northern Greece and his father, Jean Bazile Auguste, comes from Haiti." Main article; I know that college basketball likes to group all text together but as a personal preference I think it harder to read, some spacing between the text subsections (ie from high school career to recruiting profile) wouldn't hurt in my eyes. The content thankfully is not overly long (maybe the season-high game at Marquette can be mentionned in another sentence or deleted) though the sentence "whom has not had a 30-win season" would have to follow "Notre Dame", something like "the school's/university's/program's first 30-win season in over 100, one win shy of the school record." would make for better prose. Again I'm not trying to make a point or say that I can do it better, just giving a third opinion and a few non-expert writing pointers. --ArmstrongJulian (talk) 10:36, 10 June 2015 (UTC)


 * No grudges. On notability: there was a deletion discussion, after the article was submitted, and its result was to keep the article. Anywasy, all we need is someone bold enough to make this discussion a constructive edit. The phrase you are proposing ("Auguste was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts to Greek and Haitian parents. His mother, Lea Tzimoulis, is from the city Kozani in northern Greece and his father, Jean Bazile Auguste, comes from Haiti.") seems just fine. Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) a penny for your thoughts? 19:05, 10 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I made changes to the article, even though it now reads differently they weren't sweeping changes. A quick summary and explanations: -Downscaled some events whilst expanding others, winning the ACC tournament wasn't mentionned and I detailed some of the games in the NCAA tournament as it was there he made his fame (my doubts about his notability are over by the way). -As per conversation above slightly modified personnal life section. -Removed some sources, we have to careful with WP:GOODREFS, one of the sources (notre dame insider) could be considered a blog/fan site, there was a better source available, I'm not sure about the Gazzetta source too, it's writtend strangely, gets some facts wrong (greek high school) and states personal opinions, maybe that's a google translate problem, Greek sources can be included if there is no english source but they also need to come from reliable websites, I'm thinking the greek equivalent of ESPN/Sports Illustrated/newspapers. For the Midwest Regional team selection, while it's probably correct, it has not been announced by any reliable source, only on an unofficial twitter account (here and here), lets wait until it's official to include it (I'm sure Notre Dame will be putting it in his bio), there's no rush. That is also why I removed twitter and facebook links as per WP:FACEBOOK and WP:Twitter. -I modified some internal links, adding some and removing some, individual seasons of rival colleges is not important to the article unless they specifically pertain to his performance against them (as for Kentucky), the 100 year ND record is probably best on the school article, freshman/sophomore/junior was mostly because it's obvious from the text which season is which but I don't feel strongly against their inclusion. Let me know what you think, I wanted to do only basic edits but got curious and carried away, at the point we're at I'm thinking we might as well get it perfect and nominate it for good article again (judging from the other good articles cited in this discussion, the standard doesn't seem to be that high) I'm going to add a playing profile section later (I already have the source material) too.


 * Good job ArmstrongJulian! Well, it looks good to me. Thanks for the added bonuses as well. Savvyjack23 (talk) 17:18, 11 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Great job! Two minor fixes: corrected personnal->personal and moved the Personal section after his playing career sections, as it's more common that way. Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) a penny for your thoughts? 23:08, 13 June 2015 (UTC)


 * IMHO a sentence about his religious affiliation could have a place in the article (just to save some time I'm not a Greek orthodox, not even religious). It's common to mention one;'s religion in articles, especially when it's not a common one (e.g. Jabari Parker, Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf) or in cases that it was a major issue for the subject of the article (AC Green). Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) a penny for your thoughts? 23:21, 13 June 2015 (UTC)


 * His religious affiliation could have a place there but he has never stated it, as a matter of fact no source comes remotely close to saying that, I removed the gazzetta source because it contained two glaring errors (his mother is not from Kozani and he did not attend greek high school) so all that remains is a mention of his attending an orthodox church (with no detail of when, why and for how long). I've more or less contributed all I could to the article, deciding not to add a player profile in the end because I could only find positive views on his play which is unrealistic, let me know what you think and if something looks wrong, in this state I'm confident it has what it takes to be accepted as a good article.


 * ArmstrongJulian, the article looks great. I didn't notice that greek orthodox high school thing in gazzetta's article. You're right on this. Concerning his mother, actually she is from Kozani, since Agia Sotira is a part of the Kozani (regional unit). Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) a penny for your thoughts? 23:35, 14 June 2015 (UTC)