Talk:Zach Parise

Untitled
Bold textHe is really good. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.5.141 (talk) 00:22, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Parisé
It's supposed to be Parisé. Unless he legally changed his name, which I seriously doubt he did, this article should be changed. Parise is only the name on his jersey because they don't put any accents on NHL or IIHF jerseys. The name needs to change immediately to Parisé. 74.13.192.44 (talk) 15:34, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * If you have a reliable source that shows the different name, its something that can be discussed, but as of right now, most every source used in writing this article does not use the accent. Canada Hky (talk) 21:20, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * My source is his father. His father's name is Parisé. Unless you can prove he legally changed his name with a reliable source, you cannot put "e" because that is original research - something not allowed on Wikipedia. You can't make assumptions like you do. Media is not a source. Accents are left out all the time. Never have I seen proper accentation on Slavic or francophone names. This is a clearly invalid reason. I will not stand for any blatant disparagement and defamation of French-Canadians. 74.13.192.44 (talk) 22:41, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * In addition to reliable sources, the information also needs to be verifiable. I am not trying to disparage anything, but I have never seen a source that presents Zach's name with an accent.  Canada Hky (talk) 23:03, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You failed to admit that you are making an assumption when you infer that he legally changed his name. Just because an error gets repeated or accepted as correct doesn't make it right. You have clearly been influenced by the North American anglophone popular-tradition of hatred for and disparagement of French-Canadians. 74.13.192.44 (talk) 01:28, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not assuming anything about his name. When I brought the article to GA status, I didn't find a source that includes an accent when writing Zach's name.  The article reflects that.  Find a source, and it can be changed with no qualms from me.  I'm going to post a note about this on the hockey|bio=yes project, so we can get some other perspectives.  Canada Hky (talk) 01:47, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Here's a link to the discussion there, in case not everyone chimes in at both places: bio=yes#Zach_Parise Canada Hky (talk) 02:53, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:V. There are many reliable sources that do not use an accent mark.  Even if there is one that does, the overwhelming majority do not, and that is how we judge such things on Wikipedia. As a comparable, Joe Sakic. Resolute 03:59, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * An alternate scenario to Zach and J.P. having slightly different last names besides a legal name change is that the accent was simply omitted when his birth was registered in the US. If the intent was that he would grow up there, the accent may have been dropped for future convenience.  Is his mother American or French-Canadian like J.P.?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.119.19.211 (talk) 04:35, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Mo Rock...Monstrous (leech44) said it better and first on the bio=yes#Zach_Parise|Hockey|bio=yes Project page.  Apologies for the noise.
 * Since there doesn't appear to be any debate about J.P.'s surname, I restored the document to show Parisé when referring to him.


 * There was nothing of any validity presented by user leech44. All he did was make more assumptions. None of you have any proof that he legally changed his name. I have already explained that just because the popular anglophone media repeats a mistake, it doesn't make it true. It is ridiculous and absurd to say that you take the assumption he legally changed his named as the correct answer. You can't assume positive action here. Nothing but bigotry on display here. Further JP wasn't even a citizen of the US at the time of Zach's birth and was only in Minnesota on a work visa.
 * LOOK HERE http://www.radio-canada.ca/sports/hockey|bio=yes/2011/03/30/004-lnh-breves-mardi.shtml. I can find dozens of news articles which have his proper name. And on the French Wikipedia they got it right: . 74.13.192.44 (talk) 15:47, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Personal attacks removed. Resolute 18:40, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The presumption that anyone whose background can be traced to a country that uses diacritics ought to have his name spelled that way is a breathtakingly moronic consequence of the current regime. Heck, there are very few contemporaneous sources in the career of his father for the diacritic, never mind in Zach's.  Zach Parise was born in the United States, raised in the United States, has played his entire organized hockey|bio=yes career in the United States, and diacriticals aren't particularly used in the United States.  What the editors of the French Wikipedia do over there is their lookout, and what sportswriters in Quebec - who seldom err on the side of accuracy where nationalism is involevd - write is their lookout, but this nonsense has gone on long enough.  "Zach Parise" outGoogles "Zack Parisé" over twenty-five to one.  Done freaking deal.   Ravenswing  21:44, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * ^Summary: As long as the mistake is accepted by the media AND it is disparaging to French-Canadians it transforms that persons legal name into an anglicized version by unseen and unknowable forces and methods. What do you name this natural law? How does it work? Why can't I find any information about this law from ANY sources?
 * Did you seriously question that Jean-Paul's last name isn't spelled with an accent aigue? That is blatantly bigoted and hateful, and I as a French Canadian am personally offended by this remark.
 * You just admitted that diacritics are used in the United States. Frequency means nothing to LEGALITY.
 * Once again all you said was "I'm right because as long something is repeated enough by a notoriously anti-French-Canadian anglophone media it makes it true."
 * And how convenient that my freedom of speech is denied. I know that Wikipedia is not accountable to anybody, but surely you should explain that you support disparagement of French-Canadians. If this could been made clear I would move on. 74.13.192.44 (talk) 22:48, 7 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Nothing I have said has been answered. Nobody has said how and when he legally changed his last name. Nobody explained how and why the anglophone media is correct, but the francophone media isn't. Nobody can explain how being born in the US to a non-citizen on a work visa would equate to the accent being dropped. Nothing has been responded to. All that has been said is, his name MUST have legally been changed because the anglophone media says so, and we assume that his name has been legally changed just because it usually is (no source to support this). And there has been no shortage of bigotry towards French-Canadians. I am going to get this article restored to how it should be written. If it weren't for a corrupt system it would have already been done as there is nothing which can counter my points short of actual first hand sight of his official documentation. Unless anybody has access to this they cannot continue to hold the position based on biased media and assumption of an action which they CANNOT know occurred. 74.13.192.44 (talk) 01:56, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Let me see if we have your position straight: you believe that any rendition of an 'e' without the accent used in your own language is "blatantly bigoted and hateful?" A-hah.  Best we don't belabor that one.  A few thoughts: (1) First off, the only "laws" we use to make such determinations are Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.  The pertinent guideline here holds that the usage for names on the English Wikipedia is what is most common in English-language sources.  I strongly recommend that you familiarize yourself with those rules - the links at WP:PILLAR are an excellent start - before going on further. (2) Secondly, it's plain that no one has restricted your "freedom of speech."  We're just not doing things the way you want us to do them.  This is not the same thing.  A .sig I commonly use on VBulletin forums is "It's not that I don't understand what you're saying.  It's that I don't agree with what you're saying.  The difference should be obvious." (3) You haven't proferred a single scrap of evidence, credible or otherwise, supporting your assertion as to Zach Parise's legal name, other than that "Gosh, they print his name in my hometown newspaper the way it's usually rendered in my hometown newspaper's language."  That's not remotely good enough.  Here's where you can obtain a Minnesota birth certificate:   Feel free to do so, mail a couple of us copies and change our minds. (4) Perhaps you are unaware of how things work in the United States.  Having been born here, Parise is a United States citizen.  His father's citizenship or visa status are irrelevant. (5) Perhaps there has been bigotry towards Quebecois in Canada.  Parise was born, raised, works and lives, however, in a country of 300 million people who've scarcely noticed - if they have at all.  I don't deny that there are groups in the United States which suffer prejudice, but French-Canadians are not among them, and your implications that we could only be doing things the way we've been doing them all along out of hatred for Quebecois is not only a violation of Wikipedia policy against personal attacks, it's just plain nonsensical.  The only bigotry being shown here, sir, is your insistence that how English orthography handles diacritics is an "error" and a "mistake." (6) Finally, content disputes on Wikipedia are solved through consensus.  Consensus is unanimously against your POV.  This is "corrupt" only if you define "corruption" as "You're not doing what I want!"  That being said, continued attempts to edit against clear and explicit consensus can get you blocked.   Ravenswing  04:26, 9 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't have to provide evidence - YOU do. YOU are assuming positive action NOT me. YOU are making assumptions NOT me.
 * I have never been warned to edit against clear consensus. You are clearly confused. This is the talk page, not the actual page.
 * The anglophone media in Canada is anti-French-Canadian. The US media is ignorant towards other countries and peoples, with pervasive anti-French sentiment.
 * And I don't care about you mocking me or threatening me on baseless grounds, but I think you could at least be honest with yourself. This has been nothing but a complete joke. Answer my questions or admit prejudice (and make sure that is advertised) and I will move on. 74.13.192.44 (talk) 20:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There are 38 references cited in the article. All of them (including the one you added about J-P) write "Parise" without accents.  If you can provide reliable, verifiable evidence to counter this, please do.  The evidence for writing his name without accents is already present.  Canada Hky (talk) 20:49, 9 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Someone searching for bigotry everywhere they look will most often find it in the mirror... Whine about bigotry all you want, it won't sway a single editor as we are making no assumptions. The spelling we are using is what is used in reliable sources.  I suggest you take it up with the English media if you want changes.  Hell, it took me less than a minute to find a French language source that does not use an accent mark. Resolute 20:59, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * We do not, in fact, have to provide evidence of anything (although we have, in profusion); you, as the one who wishes to change the status quo, do. We are not, in fact, required to meet your demands; this is not a courtroom, and you are not the judge.  Should you wish to review WP:PILLAR and familiarize yourself with the workings of Wikipedia, that is always welcome.  Failing that, you are not the first - nor the first thousandth - editor to conflate failure to agree with you and/or upholding the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia as prejudice, hostility or malevolence, and a week after the rest of us have forgotten this flap, there'll be someone else.   Ravenswing  22:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Are you saying that JP Parisé's name is not spelled with an accent aigu? If so, this is a hateful statement. Why are you so obsessed with the amount of sources or the relative size of sources as the single determinate of the truth? It's quality over quantity, not visa versa. It's a pathetic excuse to veil your bigotry towards French-Canadians to say that the amount of sources supersedes logic.
 * Nothing can be more clear that JP Parisé is spelled with an é. Nothing can be more clear that Zach is his son. Nothing can be more clear that there is no evidence he legally changes his name. Nothing can be more clear that diacritics are used in English (eg. naïve).
 * Your beloved sources do not prove anything. There are any number of reasons that they might not use é. René Bourque rarely has his name properly accented in the media, despite there being no doubt his name is René. This is the case for most French-Canadians. But most sources lack the é. According to your irrational system that must mean that his name doesn't have an é and he legally changed it by unseen and unknown ways. 74.13.192.44 (talk) 22:39, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Consider this your final warning: If you make another baseless accusation of bigotry, you will be blocked from editing. Resolute 23:39, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I rather think we're done here. The reasons behind your willful refusal to learn how Wikipedia works, and by which policies and guidelines it is governed, are of little consequence.  This is a settled matter, which further regurgitation of your beliefs will not alter.   Ravenswing  00:28, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

How am I supposed to interpret evasion of my argument? helpfulness? 74.13.192.44 (talk) 02:56, 11 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Above all I'd like at least one thing explained, my last point from above: Why when the majority of sources cited on the article for René Bourque do NOT have an "é" is his name written as René? According to what you have argued here that is wrong and it should be Rene Bourque. PLEASE ANSWER THIS WITHOUT THREATENING ME. IT SEEMS TO ME TO BE A OBVIOUS FAILURE OF THE SYSTEM. 74.13.192.44 (talk) 03:02, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * René Bourque is French Canadian, is fully fluent in French and there is multiple evidence that he spells his name with the accent. Zach Parise is American, does not speak French at all and there is no evidence that he spells his name with the accent.  Your so called "legal name change" occurred when his birth was registered as there would not have been accents on the typewriter.  It's not bigotry that accents are dropped, it's a combination of indifference and the American melting pot philosophy.  The equivalent and equally wrong argument is that the use of accents is bigotry against Americans.  It's unfortunate that the NHL does not preserve the correct spellings, but that's a whole other issue, which I think you should take up with the NHL.  With respect to Zach Parise there is absolutely no credible evidence that he spells his name with an accent.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.246.179.122 (talk) 05:26, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Mm, good point. While CanadaHky and Resolute are Canadian, I'm from Massachusetts.  So far, I've managed to avoid flinging accusations that the use of diacriticals by Canadian editors can only come from arrogant racism and hostility against Americans.  Even were I to believe it (historically, in fact, diacritical use has been mostly pushed by European editors), it would of course be a violation of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA to say so.   Ravenswing  15:38, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * That still doesn't address the question. They argue that it is the quantity of sources which matters. The quantity of sources cited on the page for Bourque which do not have proper accents on his name form the majority. I want to know how the "system" explains this discrepancy. 74.13.192.44 (talk) 18:14, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * If René Bourque does not follow Wiki-naming conventions, then it is incorrect, but "Zach Parise" is correctly named. Dolovis (talk) 20:31, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The question has been addressed. That you don't like the answer may well be the case, but it doesn't follow that we're going to keep serving up explanations until you declare yourself satisfied.  This issue has been settled, and it is time to move on.   Ravenswing  06:42, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The name should remain as Zach Parise. GoodDay (talk) 04:11, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I would also add that this is the English Wikipedia, and according to the policy of WP:COMMONNAME and Naming conventions (use English), it is not the person's "legal name" which decides the article's title. We are to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article. Dolovis (talk) 20:26, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Just so that it's perfectly clear, the rule says that even IF Zach's legal last name is Parisé it would still be written as Parise because the [anti-French-Canadian] Anglophone media removed the << é >>?
 * Now that the error in system has become clear, once it is proven that his name is in fact legally Parisé I want to know how to bring this evidence forward and have it valued as it should be, instead of being silenced because of a corrupt system.
 * (And you can censor my critics of the system all you want, you are only furthering the corruption of Wikipedia. I did not personally attack anybody in the censored statement.) 74.13.192.44 (talk) 20:51, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It's remaining as Zach Parise. If ya don't like it? tough. GoodDay (talk) 23:59, 14 May 2011 (UTC)


 * No, you attacked us all, which is no better, and unacceptable - Wikipedia does not permit personal attacks, and they may be freely deleted. The system works quite fairly and has for many years beyond the handful of days you've been active here; for our part, we do not define "corrupt" as "they won't let me have my way."  That being said, I posted how to bring the evidence forward days ago.  Follow that link to the page on the Minnesota state website where you can order copies of birth certificates.  Do so, and I'm sure that some of us will be happy to volunteer addresses to which you can mail certified copies.  Should those certified copies support your position, the article will be changed at once to reflect that.   Ravenswing  03:32, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Ok but the wikipedians here have spent days telling me it's the number of sources that matters, not the quality of those sources, and a sources information can't be discredited for any bias one could reasonably infer from them. I've contacted members of the francophone sports media in Canada who use Parisé and asked about the issue. If they have some relevant information I will share it. 74.13.192.44 (talk) 22:11, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Not to touch this debate off again especially since I'm not an expert on the subject (so if I'm wrong someone please correct me) but from what I understand is that it's not that the system is broken it's that there is a compromises in place. Diacritics have been a point of contention in general (which seems to be heating up again) and in order to settle edit wars an agreement was reached that diacritics would be used on individual player pages based on nationality. René Bourque has the é because he is Canadian and it is assumed that his legal name is spelled that way despite sources to the contrary. Parise is an American and it is assumed that his name contains no diacritic, therefore significant sources are needed to change the spelling to Parisé. Reliable sources list his name as Parise not Parisé, however  Ravenswing  point is that if his legal American birth certificate contains the é concessions can be made. With out multiple sources using the the accent or proof that his legal name goes against American naming conventions it will remain at Zach Parise. As for some of your other points: while you are correct that a correct spelling of naïve has accents it is just as correct to write it as naive, with the second being the vastly more common. Wikipedia isn't a reliable source, take for instance Dr. Dre real name Andre Romelle Young French Wikipedia list his name as André Romelle Young, which doesn't mean it needs to be changed on one or the other, ones in French and ones in English--Mo Rock...Monstrous  (leech44) 01:37, 18 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Firstly, thank you for reasonably and politely responding, something other users have refused to do. I must press this assumption that you make based on nationality. The United States had several major European colonizers and two were France and Spain. There are native populations of francophone Americans which date back hundreds of years still in existence. Just because they aren't very visible, does not take away from their legitimacy. Madawaska, Maine for example is overwhelmingly native francophone US town.
 * There is numerous precedent for Americans of French decent being born with diacritics in their legally registered name.
 * First, René L. De Rouen, a US politician born in Ville Platte, Louisiane. The only single source cited is his official biography from the Biographical Directory of the United States Congress, which unmistakably accents his given name René.
 * Arsène Pujo, likewise a US politician from Louisiane. The official government biography, of the same origin as above, clearly accents his name Arsène.
 * William Pène du Bois an author born in New Jersey to artist Guy Pène du Bois born in New York.
 * I could go on for paragraphs giving clear precedent of Francophone Americans with legal names which have accents. The United States is not ethnically, or linguistically unified. Reflecting this, the United States does not have an official language. You cannot therefore make assumptions based on what one perceives to be nationality for the case of the US. It is an impossibility. Therefore, I completely reject your argument of nationality. 74.13.192.44 (talk) 05:00, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * For me the key flaw in your examples is that they are Francophone whereas Zach can not speak French at all. He is a uni-lingual English-only speaking American from Minnesota.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.119.19.211 (talk) 07:03, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No one would dream of dictating to you what arguments you're required to like or not. Of course, that you might "completely reject" one is moot; how these matters are adjudicated on Wikipedia are through consensus, not on the personal views of any lone editor, however often repeated.  It's been explained to you how to go about changing people's minds.  If you'd rather not take the trouble, that's your decision, but nothing short will sway things your way.  The horse has been dead for over a week now, and needn't be beaten any further.   Ravenswing  16:23, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you have a problem with criticism of the system? I was saying those "American naming conventions" are clearly flawed. As I mentioned the US is not ethnically or linguistically unified, and there exists valid precedent of diacritics used in American born citizens. If it has come down to Wikipeidia's "American naming conventions" that is the flaw then that is what I will address. I'm trying to change consensus by addressing the argument put forward against my position. How else am I supposed to do it? 74.13.192.44 (talk) 18:21, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * In those cases you outlined above, there are official sources showing accent use. There is nothing like that for Parise.  You have pointed out French language sources that use accents, and other French-language sources that don't use accents have been found.  Its not the case that accents can't be used, it's that for Parise, there is no evidence that they should be used.  No consensus is ever going to be achieved that will override Wikipedia's policy of using reliable sources.  Canada Hky (talk) 18:32, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You've been criticizing the system for two weeks now - and, truth be told, insulted and jeered at the system far more than critiqued it. So far, not a single editor here sees things your way.  Given that the other national Wikipedias use their own orthography, terms and usages for English-language subjects as opposed to the accurate ones - I notice, for instance, that the French Wikipedia article for the United States has an "É" in the title name - there's not a great deal of sympathy for outside language warriors.  That being said, the nature of a consensus-based system is that sometimes you're going to be on the losing side, and the only thing to do then is lose gracefully and move on.   Ravenswing  19:01, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * To user:Hky I was explaining that accents can be and are used in legal personal names in the US, and that therefore the "American naming conventions" are flawed if they automatically assume that diacritics are dropped. And once again, you say that you value the quantity of sources over the quality of any single source. Let me be very clear. There are numerous reasons why the anglophone media sources do not have the proper spelling of Zach's surname. Even if you repeat a mistake a thousand times it does not make it correct.
 * And to Ravenswing, I'm sorry but what you said is ridiculous. I'm talking about names of PEOPLE. NOT names of COUNTRIES. They are completely different. For you not to grasp this shows that you don't understand the legal value of personal names. And FYI the words "united" and "states" have literal meanings in the English language, and it is very rare to have the name of a country end with an <> hence the que. What an ill thought out comment. 74.13.192.44 (talk) 21:29, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Obviously the examples you provided show that American naming conventions don't automatically drop the accent, but that still isn't the issue here, nor did I ever make a claim about widespread policy regarding diacritics. Right now, both the quantity of sources, and the quality of those sources is heavily on the side of there not being an accent in his name.  UND Athletics uses diacritics on their roster pages (here), but they have never used one for Parise.  To me, that indicates that the school recognizes them, but that Parise's name did not have an accent on any of the documentation he used when he applied to school.  Canada Hky (talk) 21:40, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * That's original research and proves absolutely nothing. 74.13.192.44 (talk) 20:55, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Requesting semi-protected status. Perplexed 18:09, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Nevermind, I have no idea what I am doing. Perplexed 18:10, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 2 July 2012
Team: New York Rangers

Slapshot13j6 (talk) 19:36, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Ryan Vesey Review me!  20:19, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

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