Talk:Zamorin

Herditary Ministers of Samoothiripaddu
Mangattu Achhan,Thinancherry Elaayath, Varakkal Para Nambi, Dharmothu Panicker. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Devaprathap (talk • contribs) 15:51, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Zamorin or Samoothiripaddu?
After referring to a few books,, Maanichan and Vikkiran were originally called manikram and Vikkraam were youths who were descendents of Chalukyas who accidently came over to Malabar. Seeing the situation there, They made freinds with everyone quickly and gained acceptance and the rest of the history is more or less known I guess. So I assume Samoothisis are kshatriyas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.99.41.226 (talk) 12:34, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

I think this page should be titled as Samoothiripaddu instead of Zamorin, as it is the local name. Thoughts anyone? -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph10:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I fully support the move. It need to be renamed as Samoothirippadu or Samoothiri. Chanakyathegreat 16:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that would be good. I started it, thinking mainly of the English audience, but I did not know the trick of re-direction. I would suggest "Samoothiri" and NOT "Samoothiripadu" so as to make it short. Will someone please go ahead. - Amarnath Raja 24 Feb 2007

According to the discussion, the article Zamorin will be redirected to Saamoothiri. It's not Sa moo, its Saa moo thi ri. Expected changes will also made in the article. Thank you. Chanakyathegreat 08:59, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Was Saamoothiri a Nair King as mentioned in the article? The title Varma Suggests that they should be Kshathriyas.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.212.55.3 (talk) 16:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Raja is the title of old zamorins, like 'charia anujan raja' during coronation, title of manavedhan or manavikraman is given. Presently this titles are not observed to follow & some are even varmas!. Zamorins are nairs & Kshatria, they belong to the spectrum of nairs that belong to kshatria sect. 122.172.114.211 (talk) 04:47, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:30, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Samoothiri → Zamorin — per WP:UCN (use common names). Zamorin is vastly more common than the current title. -- —  AjaxSmack  00:31, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Zamorin is used by Britannica and Google Books give a sample of other usage with about 44,100 results for Zamorin versus about 31 results for Samoothiri, an over 1400:1 ratio.

This article has been victim of a cut and paste move and several undiscussed name changes. —  AjaxSmack  00:31, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Survey and discussion

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

In recent days i read an article on a daily that a maharaja has sold 11 elephants nettipattam to construct a railway line. Who was it? i really forgot it .can anybody help me —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.206.16.113 (talk) 11:05, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Article title
The article was moved from "Zamorin" to "Zamorin of Calicut" with an edit summary of "Readers can understand better from this title, Zamorins were in fact famous as the Kings of Calicut". Does this take us away from using the most common name, for no other purpose than emphasising something that an editor feels needs emphasis? --McGeddon (talk) 10:18, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

What?
Is this article about the dynasty, the title or the kings or the state? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.161.185.55 (talk) 05:58, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

It will be better if divide the article as


 * Kingdom of Calicut
 * Zamorins of Calicut (dynasty)
 * Zamorin of Calicut (title) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.161.185.55 (talk) 06:05, 6 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I think that is a good idea. But, you have to discuss it with all main contributors

(Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ Μέγας (talk) 07:48, 17 May 2012 (UTC)).

Image links
Why these images are not included in the article?

File:A rendering of the scene by the Portuguese painter Velos Salgado.jpg File:Portuguese fort at Calicut.jpg File:Vasco da Gama dá a sua embaixada ao Samorim em Calicute.jpg File:Zamorin&gama.jpg File:Calicut coast.jpg File:The Savages of Calicut.gif File:Thali Temple, Malabar District.jpg File:Marakkar-Navy.JPG File:Duarte Pacheco's victory at Battle of Cochin (1504).jpg

(Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ Μέγας (talk) 07:48, 17 May 2012 (UTC)).

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ettanettan_Tampuran,_the_Zamorin_of_Calicut.jpg

The image shown on the above link is mentioned as Swathi Tirunal of Travancore

Sinking of pilgrim ship
In the entry around August 1502, the text says "However, the burning and sinking of the ship is not related by any contemporary and reliable sources. Some assume that the description may be "legendary or at least exaggerated" and gives a reference to Britannica.  I have been unable to check Britannica (doesn't show up on my browser).  But this is certainly a false statement.  As seen in the record of the 4th armada of 1502, the burning & sinking of the ship is related in all contemporary Portuguese chronicles (Barros, Gois, Castanheda, Osorio, Correia); it is also reported in at least four separate eyewitness accounts. By historical standards, the evidence is overwhelming.  This needs to be corrected. Walrasiad (talk) 04:06, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Long lead?
Anything related to lead can be discussed here 68.33.4.126 (talk) 21:43, 1 December 2023 (UTC)


 * It was after the dissolution of the kingdom of Cheras of Kodungallur in the early 12th century that the Samanthan Nair Eradis of Nediyiruppu (originally autonomous chiefs of Eranadu) demonstrated their political independence under the title of Zamorin. The Zamorins maintained elaborate trade relations with the Muslim Middle-Eastern sailors in the Indian Ocean, the primary spice traders on the Malabar Coast during the Middle Ages. Calicut was then an important entrepôt in South-Western India where Chinese and West Asian trade collaborated.
 * This can be removed form the lead.
 * This is already added extensively here and it is not zen percentage proven, but generally agreed:
 * Historical records regarding the origin of the Zamorin of Calicut are obscure. However, it is generally agreed among historians the Eradis were originally the autonomous rulers of Eralnadu/Eranadu region of the Kodungallur Chera kingdom 68.33.4.126 (talk) 21:49, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Good choice to discuss lead, and I agree that lead is long.
 * Yes, that dissolution of kingdom of Chera paragraph can be removed, it relates to history and is mentioned in part you highlighted. Can add something else instead of the dissolution of Chera paragraph.
 * The 3rd paragraph can talk about the final battle, defeat and end of the dynasty, instead of mentioning king suicide and pension which can be in other area of page but not in lead. HölderlinRem1 (talk) 22:21, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The article should wrap up by addressing the last king's suicide and the current treatment of the Zamorin family in a democratic country, providing a comprehensive overview from A to Z. As this is a Wikipedia article, it's important to include all aspects rather than just glorifying the dynasty's history. 68.33.4.126 (talk) 13:50, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Samanthan - placed above the majority of Nayars
checked the source JOAN P. MENCHER, The Nayars of South Malabr , page 167 , -  A group of castes known as Ambalavasis (temple servants) and Samantans (ruling chiefs) were placed above the majority of Nayars

Most Samantans subcastes intermarry among one another, though the men might also marry Nayar women and the women might take Brahmin husband

In Ernad taluq, specifically in Angadi, the matrilineal caste groups include several Ambilavasi subcastes, Samantans, Nayars and Chalians

"The Zamorin of Calicut was of a Samantan subcaste known as Eradi, or originally the ruler of Ernad. Most Samantans subcastes intermarry among one another, though the men might also marry Nayar women and the women might take Brahmin husbands. The Nayars, who come next in this hierarchy, were themselves divided into numerous subcastes, all hierarchically placed though the subdivisions vary from region to region. They may be classified into three major categories: the high-caste Nayars who either belonged to the military or served in some other capacity for Namboodiri Brahmins, Kshatriyas or Samantans; the intermediate group of Nayars, a small number who do not intermarry or interdine with the higher caste group and who perform various tasks for temples, that is, copper working, or making earthern ware; and finally, also few numerically, a group of low-caste Nayars who serve other Nayars as washermen, barbers and oilmongers.8For the most part, this chapter will deal with the higher caste Nayars, as they form the major portion of the Nayar population in any village."

Robin Jeffrey, an anthropologist, described the Samantans as, "A matrilineal caste ranking between Nayars and Kshatriyas."

Usage Samanthan Nair is oxymoron 68.33.4.126 (talk) 04:58, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

removed cherry picked caste promotion in lead
The intricacies of caste and line of succession for the Zamorin dynasty have been thoroughly detailed in a dedicated section of the article. To avoid redundancy and maintain the integrity of the content, repetitive and selective excerpts previously found in the lead have been removed.

Furthermore, new information has been incorporated into the 'Caste and Line of Succession' section, with credible sourcing from the court historian of Zamorin. It elucidates the unique matriarchal system followed by the Zamorin, where the king's successor is his sister's son. This arrangement ensures that the Zamorin's lineage is perpetually a mix of Zamorin and Nambudiri Brahmin heritage, as the sisters of the Zamorin are traditionally married to Nambudiri Brahmin men. This crucial detail enhances our understanding of the dynasty's lineage and its societal impacts. [Reference: The Zamorins of Calicut]

In the article's lead, a concise summary of the dynasty's end has been added for a comprehensive understanding. It highlights the dramatic demise of the final Zamorin of Calicut, who committed suicide by self-immolation in his palace, in response to Hyder Ali's capture of the neighboring region of Chirackal in Kannur. This event marked a significant historical turning point and the end of the Zamorin dynasty. [Reference: India Today]

These amendments are based on historical facts and documented sources, ensuring that the article adheres to Wikipedia's standards for accuracy and neutrality 2600:4040:4527:3B00:7C68:B92C:9057:6057 (talk) 02:43, 17 January 2024 (UTC)


 * more references to Zamorin marriage :
 * Female Initiation Rites on the Malabar Coast, E. Kathleen Gough
 * The Zamorins at first married only some of their women (sisters of present zamorin king) to Nambuldiris, and the rest to men of the more ancient royal lineages of Beypore, Bettem, and Kodungalur, all of whom had been conquered by the Zamorins and made honored vassals in their kingdom. At some time in the i8th century, the Zamorin's lineage gave up this practice and began to marry its women only to Nambuidiris, while continuing to marry its men to Samantan, Kiriyattil, and retainer-Nayar women -- page 47
 * When the Zamorin marries, he must not cohabit with his bride till the Nambourie or chief
 * Priest has enjoyed her, and, if he pleases, may have Three Nights of her Company, because the
 * first Fruits of her nuptials must be an holy Oblation to the God she worships; and some of the
 * nobles are so complaisant as to allow the Clergy the same Tribute; but the common people cannot
 * have that Compliment paid to them, but are forced to supply the Priest's place themselves. -- page : 53
 * Hamilton (I 727, p. I 74) notes that the 'Nambourie or chief priest' must deflower the Zamorin's
 * Nayar mistress (presumably at the tali-rite) before the Zamorin could cohabit with her, and
 * that 'some of the Nobles are so complaisant as to allow the Clergy the same Tribute'. That
 * the Nambfidiris' privilege was not one exacted under protest from the Nayars, but willingly
 * accorded, appears from his remark that 'the common people cannot have that compliment
 * paid to them, but are forced to supply the Priest's place themselves' -- page 70 2600:4040:4527:3B00:7C68:B92C:9057:6057 (talk) 03:26, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The sources you removed says that the Zamorins were "originally the Samantha Eradi chiefs of Eranad", you removed it. You quoted it earlier yourself in the December 2023 discussion, after which we agreed to settle it with that.
 * Now you return with different anonymous IP and revert it and all other edits by many other editors to your own version. You have already been warned by user Outlander07 on the Samantan page for disruptive edits. HölderlinRem1 (talk) 05:33, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I have responsibly edited the lead section to remove unsourced caste promotion and redundant content. Rest assured, no sourced material has been omitted. The specific sentence in question has been expanded into a detailed paragraph titled 'Rulers of Eranadu' under the History section, ensuring comprehensive coverage.
 * It is important to note that accusations against me have been previously reviewed and dismissed by moderators. I urge you to refrain from repeating these unfounded claims and focus on constructive dialogue to enhance the article’s quality. 2600:4040:4527:3B00:BD5D:7C85:3ABA:7D42 (talk) 08:20, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 1. Unsourced? There were two sources attached to the paragraph, both of which said that the Zamorin was originally the "Samantha Eradi chiefs of Eranad." You also agreed to this in the December 2023 Talk Page discussion, your own quote from above:
 * "...the Samanthan Nair Eradis of Nediyiruppu (originally autonomous chiefs of Eranadu) demonstrated their political independence under the title of Zamorin."
 * 2. Dismissed by other moderators? The only one who was dismissed was you who had your vandalization reverted by editor Outlander07 on the Samantan page, who also said that you were a Adithya Kiran sock puppet.
 * The lead is agreed by editors in common. You wanted to mention the "last king committed suicide and burnt himself in the palace" stuff, which doesn't belong in the lead as the fate of a single king is not a summary of the article by any means. But okay, I agreed with you to keep it there.
 * I'm asking for the origins of the Zamorin to be mentioned in the lead, as it is directly connected with his dynasty, in a single sentence, with 2 sources attached. And you keep deleting it, and the edits made by other editors over months to your preferred version?
 * Let's have independent moderators review both edits, and let them decide.
 * @Sitush @Arjayay @RegentsPark @Utcursch HölderlinRem1 (talk) 09:20, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I have tagged some admins for their view on the page. The anonymous IP keep deleting the origins of the Zamorin, and replacing it with the same "final king committed suicide and burnt himself" line. The fate of one king is not a summary of the article at all, and should not be in the lead. The origins of the dynasty are far more important, and he keep deleting it.
 * This entire discussion, which has been going on for 2 months, is only because of that 1 sentence: the Zamorin was originally the Samantha Eradi chief of Eranad, before becoming the Zamorin.
 * Both sources state this, and the anonymous IP himself accepted this, which is how we got to an agreed lead in December 2023.
 * Now he's back with another anonymous IP, and reverting it back to what it was before the December 2023 discussions. Is that how it's done?
 * I asked for page protection for this very reason, and it was granted by admin. But the anonymous IP sneaked in a final revert before the protection was applied. HölderlinRem1 (talk) 09:36, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The requested line has been re-added with sources, so the lead is now complete. Thank you, we can finally close this discussion. HölderlinRem1 (talk) 10:08, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I asked for page protection for this very reason, and it was granted by admin. But the anonymous IP sneaked in a final revert before the protection was applied. HölderlinRem1 (talk) 09:36, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The requested line has been re-added with sources, so the lead is now complete. Thank you, we can finally close this discussion. HölderlinRem1 (talk) 10:08, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 January 2024
In the lead :

The Samoothiris belonged to the Eradi subcaste of the Samantan Nair community of colonial Kerala, and were originally the ruling chiefs of Eranad

Given the link to the page Samantan in the name of Samantan Nair, which Sitush has already renamed the name of original article from Samantan Nair to Samantan citing original name in sources..

So it should be :

The Samoothiris belonged to the Eradi subcaste of the Samantan community of colonial Kerala, and were originally the ruling chiefs of Eranad 207.96.13.213 (talk) 14:13, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ SSSB (talk) 16:12, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Edit request
Under the etymology section, in the first paragraph, there is line "In fact, the term derives from Sanskrit svami and sri (which in combined form becomes tiri). Isn't the "tiri" word suppose to be "sāmūtiri"? Satyamsha (talk) 08:28, 16 April 2024 (UTC)