Talk:Zanzibar leopard

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Fair use rationale for Image:Zanzibar leopard stamp.jpg
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BetacommandBot 16:45, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * i don't know a lot about the fair use rationale, but i'd think that a photograph of one of three possible leopard skins should be fair enough. It's not like anyone could take a picture of the leopard if it's extinct.Eganjt (talk) 13:16, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

This subspecies is most certainly extinct
When I visited Zanzibar earlier this year, out of interest I did a little research in this matter. Any locals I asked insisted that there are no leopards on Zanzibar, and didn't even seem to think there ever has been (though I don't think they understood the term 'extinct'). Most of the island is now cultivated, only the Jozani Forest remains, and that is crawling with tourists. Livestock is really the only remaining viable prey, and people would know about the leopards if these were being taken. There is no chance that I can see that the subspecies survives. --Tommyknocker (talk) 18:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Be that as it may, let's wait until an actual scientific determination is made, and not just your lay opinion. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:42, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The last official study made in the Jozani Forest concluded that there were no leopards present. I'm researching zoology at Cardiff University and did my own investigation, though have not released it officially. What exactly do you need? --Tommyknocker (talk) 15:05, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * We need something that is published and widely accepted. Your own private investigation is grossly insufficient for an encyclopedia. - UtherSRG (talk) 04:24, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I understand that, and I would not make the changes based on simply on my own private research, it only prompted me to do so. There was an official investigation published over 10 years ago stating that there are no leopards in Jozani Forest, is that not 'widely accepted' enough for wikipedia? Are you waiting for something on the front page of a news website? Because that's unlikely to ever happen. --Tommyknocker (talk) 19:26, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Is Jozani Forest its only range? Unfortunately, the point is going to be moot. See below. - UtherSRG (talk) 04:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Jozani Forest would be its only range, which is why the investigation was only carried out there. The population density is far too high outside, and the rest of the island is virtually all cultivated. Cultivated land is not the same in Africa as in the West- the are no large remote fields, but dozens of small farms and plantations within a single square mile. It is impossible for a leopard to exist in such an environment with no prey apart from livestock, and without coming into contact with people. And the proposition to merge all African populations into a single subspecies is certainly not 'widely accepted', as the Zanzibar leopard has never been properly studied for such an assumption to be made in the first place. --Tommyknocker (talk) 07:29, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The Zanzibar Leopard was never limited solely to Jozani as the reports and papers cited in the article make clear. I have now added recent papers and posters and links to these so that readers can see the arguments for and against extinction themselves. See esp Goldman & Walsh (2002) 'Is the Zanzibar Leopard Extinct?' and their more recent posters. Whereas uncorroborated statements of its extinction have been finding their way into the general literature for many years, even Stuart & Stuart (1997) were cautious not to declare its definite extinction. All that can be said at present is that it is at best critically endangered, and that its continued existence in the wild is doubted by some observers. For information Zanzibaris continue (in 2009) to report (unverified) sightings of leopards, both in the vicinity of Jozani and elsewhere on the coral rag of Unguja island.Zahir Mgeni (talk) 14:42, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

merge
Since we follow MSW3 for mammal taxonomy, and since this "subspecies" is relegated to a junior synonym of the nominate subspecies, we should merge all relevant data into Leopard and make this a redirect. - UtherSRG (talk) 04:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Quoting myself above, in case it is not clear of my opinion- "And the proposition to merge all African populations into a single subspecies is certainly not 'widely accepted', as the Zanzibar leopard has never been properly studied for such an assumption to be made in the first place." --Tommyknocker (talk) 02:51, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That determination is not our job as encyclopedia editors. Our job is to take the existing source information, of which MSW3 is the foremost on mammal taxonomy, and incorporate that information into our articles. As such, having this article as a subspecies article does not reflect the foremost source on taxonomy. - UtherSRG (talk) 04:42, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Based on what I can see of the discussion, the merge proposal should be to African Leopard, not to Leopard since Uther's argument is that P. p. adersi is a synonym of P. p. pardus. I think it's clear that, at a minimum, this taxonomic controversy should definitely be in the lead of this article if it is to be retained here.  I disagree with the notion that MSW3 is the final word, but I do think that it tends to be our null hypothesis and the onus is on those who would argue against what's written there to demonstrate that the consensus in the scientific community is something different.  I oppose a merge to Leopard, but am neutral on whether this article should be retained here or merged into African Leopard.  Even if the decision to recognize this as a synonym of P. p. pardus I don't see that there's a particular problem with changing this taxobox to pardus with a link back there.  A disputed potential subspecies seems notable enough to me when it has this much information and the article is this extensive and well written.  Fake cryptids get articles with much less support from the scientific community.  Another point, is there a citation for the conservation status?  --Aranae (talk) 05:07, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Whoops! Yup, you're right, I should have propsed merging to African Leopard. I blame sleep deprivation. ;) - UtherSRG (talk) 05:58, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose: Regardless of subspecific classification, the Zanzibar Leopard seems to be a notable population. As a practical point, merging this page into African Leopard would unbalance that page, as there's currently more material on the former than the latter.
 * Note that the case for merging Anatolian Leopard and Sinai Leopard into Persian Leopard seems to be stronger, but like the Zanzibar Leopard the Anatolian Leopard has some notability as a cryptozoological subject. Lavateraguy (talk) 19:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose:The article on the Zanzibar Leopard is a more detailed an balanced article than the African Leopard article. By merging the two articles in their current states, it would create an unbalanced and confusing article.  There at least needs to be a subspecies section and citations in the African Leopard article before any merge should go forth.  I wouldn't see a problem merging the Sinai Leopard with Persian Leopard, however the same problem with the balance and focus of the article will occur with a merge of Anatolian Leopard.  The articles Persian and African Leopard need to be improved to meet the same depth of detail in the Zanzibar and Anatolian articles.  They should also be checked for style, as I think some may report measurements only in English units.Eganjt (talk) 14:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose: I agree that a merge with African Leopard would make no sense at present given (1) the comparative weakness of the article about the continental subsp. and (2) lack of evidence for treating the Zanzibar Leopard as a variety of the continental form. The Zanzibar Leopard has yet to be subjected to genetic analysis and is not therefore considered in recent reclassifications based on this. The island population is notable not only morphologically but also in terms of the interest that cultural attitudes and conflicting views of its status have generated -- hence the research papers and reports cited in the article.Zahir Mgeni (talk) 14:20, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

 Declined merge as per above.  Zoo Pro  04:44, 24 December 2009 (UTC)     <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

Sightings
Recently a TV program has got a leopard with a camera trap (2018), so definively there are still some examples alive of this beast. The program was called 'alive, dead or extinct'.


 * Actually, the TV show is called "Extinct or Alive", and it is on Animal Planet. According to various online articles, further analysis showed that the leopard did not resemble an African leopard, but was smaller in size and had smaller, more solid spots- like the Zanzibar leopard. While it might still be a hoax or an African leopard, this should definitely be added to the article.

I added a section about its possible survival, but couldn't get the ref ( https://www.animalplanet.com/tv-shows/extinct-or-alive/full-episodes/the-zanzibar-leopard ) to work. This footage could be very important, confirming the leopard's continued existence and leading to new discoveries about the leopard. Of course, new discoveries will have to wait until they find a specimen to study.--SilverTiger12 (talk) 16:25, 12 August 2018 (UTC)