Talk:Zaporozhian Cossacks/Archive 1

merge with Zaporizhian Sich or not?
I don't think it's appropriate to merge this article with Zaporizhian Sich. A bit of cross-editing may be necessary, but they are essentially two different things.


 * The Zaporizhian Sich was a fortress, the capital of the Cossack nation both before and after the establishment of the Russian principality called the Hetmanate. The term is also used to refer to the Cossack nation overall, or the territory under its control, in the way the names of city-states are used.


 * The Hetmanate was a political entity under the Russian Empire, established at the Treaty of Pereyaslav. The term is also used to refer to the Cossack state (the dominion of a hetman), and this is where it overlaps with a secondary meaning of Zaporizhian Sich.

I believe that the Hetmanate continued to exist for some time after the actual Sich was destroyed (anyone know the details?). &mdash;Michael Z. 2005-06-1 16:27 Z 


 * You are likely right. I added the merge tag to attract somebody with more knowledge then me would improve the articles - either by merging them or expanding enough so they no longer cause confusion. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:55, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * There's a lot missing here, and I don't feel qualified to fill in the blanks without doing a lot of reading. I'll try to clean it up a little, though.  &mdash;Michael Z. 2005-06-1 21:29 Z 


 * I think more emphasis should be given to the article about the Sech, as many interwiki articles actually redirect here. --Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 11:11, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Article reorganized

 * Did a bit of reading; and it looks like there may have to be a bit of reorganization, eventually. The Cossack state, established by treaty with Poland in 1648, was called the Zaporozhian Host (Zaporoz'ke Vois'ko, sometimes "Zaporozhian Army").  After the Treaty of Pereyaslav with Muscovy, the Host was also called Little Russia by the Russians.  The northern part became the Hetmanate, at times corresponding to Left-bank Ukraine.  The southern part remained somewhat more independent, and more troublesome to the Russians, as Zaporozhia (region), with the Zaporozhian Sich as its centre.  Borders were very fluid during more than three decades of war, Zaporozhia was disbanded and resettled once or twice, and the Sich moved several times.


 * Muscovy also established Sloboda Ukraine, a semiautonomous district in the frontier lands of Muscovy proper, using mostly immigrant Cossacks from Polish regions.


 * Eventually, Right-bank Ukraine was taken during a partition of Poland, and became a second Little Russian governorship (along with the Left bank), and Zaporozhia and new lands taken from the Ottoman Empire became the governorship of New Russia. Finally, it was all reorganized under Catherine the Great.  &mdash;Michael Z. 2005-06-2 03:03 Z 


 * Okay, I've reorganized the articles and links a bit. I moved Cossack Hetmanate to Zaporozhian Host, since the bulk of its text concerned the original Cossack state in general.  Zaporozhia (region) needs lots of early history to be added; it should include the the Army of Lower Zaporozhia (Old Sich, 1654–1709), and the Free Lands of the Zaporozhian Host (New Sich, 1734–1775).  Cossack Hetmanate is a new stub.  &mdash;Michael Z. 2005-06-2 06:04 Z 


 * Impressive. Good work. Perhaps those new links should also be incorporated into Cossack, History of Ukraine and History of Poland series. I will take care of the latter one. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 09:45, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I've added links and a few paragraphs to a lot of the relevant Cossack and Ukraine history articles.  &mdash;Michael Z. 2005-06-2 15:55 Z 

Number of Cossack hosts
How many number of hosts Cossack had?

In this passage, it mentioned 'seven' ( second last para.). However, in the passage of 'Cossack host', it mentioned 'eleven'. &mdash;User:Dm526 2005-06-24 


 * The answer depends on when. I don't know the details, but I think Cossack host refers mostly to a later period, under the Russian Empire, after the Cossacks had settled more widely.  &mdash;Michael Z. 2005-06-24 04:08 Z 


 * Thanks for your reply.&mdash;User:Dm526 2005-06-26 

Disconnected material from the article, also re razing (massacre)
I just removed the sentence regarding razing the Sich, as discussed briefly in edit summaries of the Sich article (Since Baturyn was razed rather than Sich).

Also, I am moving here the last two pargraphs from the article. They are poorly written (sorry, I don't want to anger the author) and if after the cleanup they belong anywhere, this would be the Cossack and the History of Cossacks article. Generally, I dislike when editors come and delete pieces from articles. I usually call on them to rewrite or add to the material which they think harms the article. Here, however, my reasons are the following. On replacing the Sich razing with Baturyn massacre, I just don't know off hand whether the Baturyn events would be an anachronism or not for the Host article. If this info fits, I would welcome it here, or I might even add it myself if/when I find this out. As for moving two paragraphs to talk, I explained above. The pargraphs are just below my signature. Regards, --Irpen 02:02, August 9, 2005 (UTC)


 * The Cossacks spread throughout the Russian Empire, and were encouraged to settle on the frontiers. It is important to remember that Cossacks were not an ethnicity. Anyone could join Cossacks. Also, sometimes complete Russian settlements were conscripted into Cossacks; e.g., Amur Cossacks. Eventually they formed eleven voiskos. During Russian Revolution, the sympathies of Cossacks were split between the Red Army and White Movement, along with the whole Russian state.


 * It is not fair to regard Zaporizhian Cossacks as drunken rebels and anarchists, despite this portrayal in fiction. They had strict military discipline and excellent training. At the turn of the 18th century, the Zaporozhian Host was ahead of several Eastern and Western European countries in terms of literacy. Schools were to be found in most villages. Ukrainian Cossacks were known as well-educated people. Hetmans Bohdan Khmelnytsky, Petro Sahaidachny, and Ivan Mazepa knew several languages.

While I agree with your arguments with respect to the first deleted para, the second one is of direct relevance to the topic of the article. That you think it is poorly written is irrelevant. Unless you say something more convincing, I will restore the second one. mikka (t) 02:43, 9 August 2005 (UTC)


 * This article is about the state of Zaporozhian Host (or a quasi-state, or an etnity or whatever you call it). Then the article switch to the general blubber (is it the right word?) about Cossacks. The second paragraph also starts with general characterization of Cossacks themselves. Of the whole parahraph, only one sentence (about education, which I cannot confirm or deny off hand) is relevant to the article about the political etnity. If you feel restoration is warranted, despite the disconnect, I am fine with it. I would rather have someone check and rewrite it. If no one does it, I will do it, but it will take me longer, since I will have to read on the subject first. Anyway, if you see that it can't wait at talk, fine. Go ahead and restore it, even in the current form. That's why I moved it to talk. If I saw this as bullshit, I would have just deleted it instead. Regards, --Irpen 03:50, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * If you are ready to rewrite it in your spare time, OK with me, then. I am not an expert here, just heard things. mikka (t) 16:01, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * As I said, I am not ready to rewrite it now. Michael, or another editor with a better hand on these things than most of us, might be willing/having time to do it. I would like to add anything of significance to this, but right now I am not ready. Generally, the Cossack, particularly UA Cossack topics is a mess now. This is one of few decent articles about one aspect of the issue (their political quiazi-state). There is also a decent Zaporizhian Sich article, a messy Cossack and History of Cossacks articles. Recently, Ghirlandajo brought to attention at UA portal a "Zaporogian Cossacks" article (which sat unnoticed in some dead end) that adds to the mix. Someone has to organize and structure this topic and have this all presented as a series of articles with some being "main_article" for the parts of the others. I can't promise I will do that much. In any case, the rewritten info from these paragraphs belongs to other articles in this mix first of all. For now, a "talk" is a good place to store it. If anyone insist on moving some of it back immediately, I will not interfere until I simply add to or structure this messy info. My point is that the rest of the article is well written and parts are well connected. Then all of a sudden someone throws in "a couple of thoughts". A couple of thoughts is better than nothing of course, but the article is much more than nothing already. --Irpen 23:22, August 9, 2005 (UTC)


 * From experience I know that 'moved to talk' text is often forgotten, unless there is an editor interested in fixing it. All thing considered, I think there is enough material lying around to allow us to make Cossack article (or History of...) a FA. Unfortunately, my Wiki-activity is likely to decrese in the foreseeable future, so I don't think I can do it myself. Still, I would be glad to help. I find the Cossack/Dzikie Pola related subjects utterly fascinating. It is like Wild East, only unknown to most English speakers. Besides, it looks like a good project to kickstart Wikiproject:Eastern Europe. Which, slightly OT, reminds me: do you think Polish-Muscovy_War_%281605-1618%29 is ready for FAC? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:16, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

NPOV
The following sentence is too extreme and therefore innacurrate:

"none consider themselves to be Ukrainian, though all hold exclussively patriotic position for the future of Russia."

Not all of them do so, and not none of them consider themselves to be Ukrainian. I think the other phrasing is more realistic. This is why I changed this. Also, at Poltava most of the Zaporozhians sided with Mazepa because although they did not like him they saw him as a lesser evil, according to Subtelny (1988). regards. Faustian 21:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Being a Cossack, I think I shall trust the people I live around with rather than you. Moreover 2002 Russian census. Cossacks appear as a subgroup of either Russians or Ukrainians. None ticked the latter. As for political slant, Galicia (spanish Galicia mind you) will give their oath of utmost loyalty to Moscow before any of us will consider doing that to Kiev. Regards--Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 21:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I know a cossack to came to the USA from Kuban who considers himself Ukrainian, and until it went bankrupt two years ago a Ukrainian store in Warren Michigan was owned by a Kuban cossack.

The point is that you do not know the attitudes of EVERY Kuban cossack so you should not make statements to that effect. Faustian 21:37, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

As a direct descendent of members of the Kuban Cossack starshyna, I can tell you there are many who do consider themselves Ukrainian. It is unfortunate that those heavily russified elements (mainly landless peasants) who fought with the Soviet army (against cossack autonomy) in Cossack regiments have decided to revive purported cossack traditions of a chauvanistic Russian/Soviet character. The legitimacy of such claims is more than questionable. - a Kuban kozak (July 10, 2006) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.131.26.166 (talk • contribs)


 * Yes I do, as first of all remember that Cossacks in diaspora deliberately changed their nationality to avoid repatriation.

Also remember that Cossack forces are a Russian military organisation, not Ukrainian. Finally the recent genetic and surname study of Russia concluded that the majority of the Kuban people are ETHNICALLY Russian. Also take our dialect, it was formed by a MIX of Ukrainian and Russian words but only Russian grammar is used, and more Russian tendencies (like hard Gs instead of Hs) are present. Finally the Ukrainian population of Kuban comes mostly from Gastarbeiters, two of whom are sitting on my roof all day and fixing it.--Kuban Cossack 21:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

No, you do not know EVERY Kuban cossack - not all thousands of them. Isaac Babel in Red Cavalry clearly stated that the Kuban cossacks were Ukrainians and said some very nice things about them in comparison to the Russian cossacks. I agree with you that by now most modern Kuban cossacks consider themselves Russian but you should not use language like "all." You yourself admitted that the Ukrainian population of Kuban comes "mostly" from gastarbeiters. Not all. The latter Kuban cossack I knew came to America only three years ago from Kuban. He spoke a mixture of Russian and Ukrainian but considered himself the latter. Faustian 21:47, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * First of all, genetically Kuban Cossacks are a mix of everything, war brides, settlers, and of course general fact that even Zaprozhian Cossacks consisted of Belarusians as well as Ukrainians amogst other people. Hence already that puts a massive strain between us and Ukrainians. Second, culturally we are Cossacks, which is niether Great Ruthenian nor Ukrainian. As for historical, again Isaac Babel (who amongst other things got quite a few historical details wrong as well, like Matyash) is only a writer, and wrote his books during the passionate Ukrainisation campaign. However did he ever read our chronicles which are preserved to this day? Did he ever bother to compare the culture in Podolia to that of the Kuban? I'll tell this though compare the culture of Don and Kuban and there will be little difference. If you go to the souther Cossack districts, like Stavropol krai or Krachaevo-Cherkessia, then do not be surprised of the Causcasus mountain people's influence (of which there is NOTHING like in Podolia or Volhynia). Take our Cherkesska dress, or the Lezginka dances which are popular in the Kuban, or even the local dishes. So it really makes me raise an eyebrow on your "man". Last of the Mohigans as our Ataman would say. Regards. --Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 22:04, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

According to the second reference, 113,000 or so people in Krasnodar considered themselves Ukrainian. That's not "none". So I'm changing that part to "few" Ukrainians rather than "none." regards Faustian 21:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * And how many of them are Cossacks? NONE! ;) Sure there are Ukrainians in Kuban, Percentage wise as much as in Yakutia Komi or Leningrad Oblast. --Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 22:04, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * There are Pakistanis in Britain, and Turks in Germany as well for your information. I do not think they are indegious though, even though some are born in Britain/Germany, same with Kuban Ukrainians, none of them are Cossacks.--Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 14:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Here is some more Number Crunching for you, if we take Adygeya, Krasnodar and Kchr rural populations we get Ukrainians have 61867 (0.9%) as a fraction of total 6913294. In Russia, as a whole, the rural population is 38737683, of which Ukrainians make 691793 (1.79)%. Thus we expect 123747 Rural Ukrainians in Kuban, and we get -61880 deficiency. I think that speaks for itself. Любо братцы любо...--Kuban Cossack 22:13, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there are large differences betwen the culture of Kuban and Ukraine, just as there are many differences culturally between Ukrainians in Canada and Brazil and those in Ukraine. I also believe that you are honest when you say that not one Kuban cossack you know considers himself to be Russian. Nevertheless, the claim that NONE consider themselves Ukrainians is quite bold, especially given the fact of historical origins, continued Ukrainian folk traditions, language, etc. So far, you have proven that most modern Kuban cossacks consider themselves to be Russians, not that they all have do. So the word "few" should remain.


 * All do however if you have a closer look at the census, the word Cossacks appear under Russian umbrella just like Mountain jews appear under the Jewish umbrella. If there were Ukrainian Cossacks, and I remember the census people clearely asking so, they would have spoken up, yet none did. How do you explain that. As for other Ukrainians on the Kuban, again same proportion as in Leningrad Obalst or on Chukotka :). Moreover remeber that Cossacks are not Great Ruthenians either, (the census assumes that those who did not tick Cossacks and Pomorians are Great Ruthenians). Nor are they Small Ruthenians. We are Cossacks, not veliko- nor malo- nor belo-russy. Can you understand that. To be all honest I think the census people made a big mistake when they had Rusyns, Ukrainains and Belarusians appear as a separate identity and not a subgroup of Russians, or had no category for Great Ruthenians, which we are clearely not. --Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 16:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Some info I found on Ukrainian Kuban (I am curious about what you think):

http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1998/139815.shtml

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?AddButton=pages\K\U\KubanCossackHost.htm
 * Second source actually states about how the Cossacks went through a massive assimilation process and does not claim that they are Ukrainians. Oddly enough. First source is based on an extract from an encyclopedia published OUTSIDE Kuban. Same story about credibility. --Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 16:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

And I found this on an internet forum written by a kuban cossack:

"It is nice for us from Kuban region to see Ukrainians leave Moscow's paws. Good luck to you enjoy your new found freedom and prosperity. But another thing is propoganda from hrad cases like you. You do not need this anymore really. My grandparents never heard a Russian language living in staniza. And their language has no Russian words, as Zaporojzi came, the spoken language stayed the same. It is old and archaic Ukranian language. Which does not have for example letag for samolet and other made up Ukranian words. It does not have western Ukranian dialect. Kuban Ukranian is not surjik, it is all bullshit. But the real language of Ukraine in 18 century. It is very easy understood by any Russian. I speak it and my kids speak it fo fun. But it is not even close what Ukranians call now as their language. Why take western Polish equivalent? Eatern Ukraine had a limited time to be influenced by Poles, why western Ukrainians try to mix normal Ukrainian language, so it will not resemble Russia. It is so sad. Our language is one. Borrowed Polish and turkish words only make it more colorfull. Make it then 100% Polish and be done with that. Pity. Ukraine has nothing to do with western slave whores, but everything to do with us. Freemen, Zoporojie Cossacks, the backbone and the founders of the Ukrainian nation. I do not get the hate toward Russians as well. BTW...... We will unveil the monument to the founders of Kuban. The past great judge Golovaty of the Zoporojie voisko will be featured on the horse."

http://skyscrapercity.com/archive/index.php/t-188936.html

So at least one kuban cossack considers himself Ukrainian : )
 * See about WP:Credible sources, I have read on a forum there are Ukrainians on Mars as well.:) --Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 16:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

As for census numbers - they don't prove that not one kuban cossack considers himself Ukrainian. You showed that 61,867 rural people were Ukrainians. Can you prove that not a single one of those 61,867 rural Ukrainians is not a Kuban cossack? Since the Kuban region seems to superimposed on different oblasts, parts of which are not Kuban, the low numbers of Ukrainians make sense. regards Faustian 15:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Look at what the Cossacks come under they come under RUSSIANS. There are NO cossack Ukrainians WHATSOEVER. Hence that is PROOF! --Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 16:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

And for some reason the Ukrainian government's web site claims there are about 2 million Ukrainians in Kuban. Faustian 15:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes and that does not seem to match the census figures...I wonder why? Again Ukrainian government is OUTSIDE Kuban.--Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 16:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The guy I quoted from the forum is as credible a source as are your personal assertions. You stated above:


 * All do however if you have a closer look at the census, the word Cossacks appear under Russian umbrella just like Mountain jews appear under the Jewish umbrella. If there were Ukrainian Cossacks, and I remember the census people clearely asking so, they would have spoken up, yet none did.

Your second sentence doesn't follow from the first. If the word Cossacks appear under the Russian umbrella just like Mountain Jews appear under Jews, then a Cossack who considered himself Ukrainian would necessarily list his nationality as Ukrainian rather than Cossack-under-the-Russian umbrella. You obviously did not state that there was a separate "Ukrainian Cossack" designation on the census - for this reason a number of the "Ukrainians" on the census could have been Cossacks who claimed Ukrainian rather than "Cossack-under the-Russian-umbrella" or "Russian."
 * Well there was a tick box on the census itself, as I clearely remember, but as I said above if some would have ticked it there would be a section on the census results would there?--Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 17:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia of Ukraine article calls the Kuban Cossack Host "the only formation of Ukrainian Cossacks that existed until the final days of tsarist rule, and one of the 12 Cossack armies in the Russian Empire..." and nowhere states that the Kuban cossacks were completely culturally assimilated.

The Russian census of 1897 states that the majority of people in Kuban (908,818 people) spoke Ukrainian ("Little Russian"), as did about 318,000 people in Stavropol. In the 1920's a lot of Ukrainian teachers were sent to Kuban to maintain the Ukrainian language there, and there werre several Ukrainian-language newspapers  Do you claim that every single one of the descendents of those 1,226,818 Ukrainian-speakers were assimilated? That would be an incredible and unknown in world history feat of assimilation to reduce a population of 1.2 million Ukrainian speakers to zero in 70 years (after the end of the Ukrainization in 1920's). Anyways, the census of 1989 showed about 4 percent (182,100) of the people in Krasnodar were Ukrainians ; in 2002 it's under 3% so the Ukrainians are leaving and the ones there are probably native, not gastarbeiter as you suggested.
 * Russian census of 1897 listed langauge not nationality. Language that still has both Russian and Ukrainian influences in local dialect that only babkas speak. Moreover is language an indicator? I mean does the fact that Kiev speaks Russian make Kievans ethnically Russian? Same with Kuban only backwards? Census of 1989 is only general, if you look at density and distribution you will find that most of the Ukrainians live in Urban places and on the Black Sea Coast (which is actually strictly speaking not Kuban territory).
 * As for teachers, here is what our chronicles show, that yes in 1920s teachers were sent to Kuban, but what your sources do not say is that at the same time teachers were sent to all areas of the USSR. We still have schools that teach Ukrainian and were it is taught in Ukrainian, however their proportion, even in 1920s was the same as that of in Kazakhstan or Siberia. (And unlike Russian schools in Ukraine, nobody threatens their closure). --Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 17:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

In summary, the evidence does NOT support your claim that not a single one of the Kuban cossack people considers himself Ukrainian. Out of courtesy to you I will wait to get other people's comments (see the new heading below) before changing the article for now. Faustian 17:16, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes it does, because all of your evidence is second hand based on secondary sources, or anecdotical forum posts. Take my first source which states that presentely, in rural areas you will not find any -enkos or -chuks, or -enkov twists. All of the rural Kuban consitits of -ins and -ovs. My sources are primary. Look I know it is painful for Svidomy to hear, but Kuban Cossacks are RUSSIANS. They are as Russians as Kievans are Ukrainians. --Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 17:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * In any case, what does this matter to you? We Cossacks are loyal to the Pereyslav agreement for enternity. (now that must be painful to hear). --Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 17:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

While your personal beliefs certainly are exotic, could you use more scholary sources then your own comments ? --Molobo 18:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * My scholarly source is the 2002 Russian census, 2005 ethnographical Russian study and original 17th,18th and 19th century Zaporozhian chronicles that rest in our libraries (and can provide scanned photos to prove their authencity)...Need I continue--Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 19:09, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

With respect to the first article you posted as your source, it uses as a source this article  that also states that geneticists have found that white anglo saxon Americans are 30% black (first paragraph). This is rather silly and therefore the newspaper article that is your first source is not credible. As for last names, -Ins and -ovs are not all Russians. As an example - Dmytro Dontsov.


 * True, but these were ethnic lands we are talking about, not twsits like Akhmetov, Islamov or Mogammetov...--Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 19:19, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Pereyaslav is another issue (remember, the Zaporozhian Host agreed with Mazepa - modern Kuban cossacks go against the wishes of their own ancestors). The attitude of most modern Kuban cossacks is very logical and follows the pattern of Jarema Vyshnevetsky except in another direction. The former figure betrayed the ideals of his Orthodox Ruthenian forebears in favor of the Poles, the latter have become faithful servants Moscow even though their ancestors defended Ukraine from Moscow. I do not consider this painful but natural. What does matter to me is accuracy. The numerous sources I provided showing the large number of Ukrainians and Ukrainian- speakers in Kuban past and present do indeed show that it is virtually impossible that no Kuban cossack considers himself Ukrainian. As for language - we know that many Ukrainians have switched to Russian as a first langiage. You make the parallel of Ukrainian speaking Russians in Kuban to Russian-speaking Ukrainians in Kiev. Okay - do you seriously claim that in Kuban those are Russians who learned to speak Ukrainians as a first language?
 * A, not all of the Zaporozhians allied with Mazepa,


 * /the majority including their leader Hordienko did. In fact, the Zaporozhians sided with Mazeppa to a greater extent than Mazepa's own cossacks.

b) why is our loyalty to other motherland make us second class people?


 * /No offense intended.

And no at Pereyaslav we VOLUNTARILY gave our oath for eternity, and so intend to keep it.

This is the Russian POV that the Zaporozhians themselves did not share. When the tsar betrayed the cossacks by making a separate deal with Poland, the cossacks themselves at that time considered the deal over. Khmelnitsky himself accused the tsar of treason in 1656 (Subtelny, 1988), and wrote "The Swedes are an honest people when they pledge friendship and alliance, they honor their word. However, the tsar in establishing an armistice with the Poles and in wishing to return us to their hands has behaved most heartlessley with us". He made plans to ally with Sweden (which Mazepa later did). This is hardly the behavior of someone who swore an oath to the tsar "for eternity"!


 * Second hardly anybody in Kuban knows literary Ukrainina, most can understand it, but in schools even though our teachers spoke perfect Kuban Balachka, all of the language was taught in Russian, all of the textbooks are in Russian, and WERE in Russian. Finally as Russian speker does not mean ethnic Russian. Since when does a speaker of a dialect that shows some Ukrainian influence (not even a Ukrainain dialect) = Ukrainian? --Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 19:19, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * /I agree that most Kuban cossacks have become assimilated.

As for census - please tell me -was there specifically a tick box for "Ukrainian Cossack?" Yes or no? regards Faustian 19:06, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * All of the nationalities were written in, and a separate booklet with a full list was given. Cossack had to specify, (there are as you might be aware Tatar Cossacks as well). Ukrainians appeared as a choice, and the results speak for yourslef. Why such a disaproving tone though? --Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 19:19, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

And none of the Ukrainian cossacks simply ticked off Ukrainian? As for my tone - I must confess I am completely surprised by your extreme claim that not a single descendent of Kuban cossacks considers himself Ukrainian. My grandfather in the US had a very close friend, a doctor, who was a cossack from Kuban who left during World War II. That guy was a real Ukrainian patriot. And although maybe pretending to be Ukrainian was necessary in 1946 it certainly was not in the 1970's. So I personally find it hard to believe your claim, and the census data showing 131,000 or so Ukrainians in Krasnodar (even more in 1989) support me. regards Faustian 19:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Expain Ukrainian Cossacks? That is I am afraid all new to me. As the term Ukrainian was never mentioned in Zaporozhian chronicles (who called themselves Ruthenians as well). And yes there are Ukrainains in Kuban, but they mostly live on the Black Sea Coast in cosmopolitan urban centres along with all other ex-USSR nationalities. They are not however INDEGIOUS Kuban people and hence are NOT Cossacks, like Black Americans are not indegious Americans (as only Native American Indians can have that claim). Same argument for Russians in the Baltic states as for Ukrainians in the Kuban. Finally if we take the Ukrainian as what is written in the passport (eastern Ukrainian definition of the term) or Ukrainian as in Svidomy (Galician and Kievan definition) then those 131 thousand will all fall into the first category. So make it even more amasing to you but such is the harsh reality. Finally if you read Gumelyov, you will understand that we Cossacks are passionate peoples and yes other nationalities have joined us and for us it is spirit that is important. Более Русскими могут быть только обрусевшие - Pushkin despite his African roots remains a Russian author. We are Russian people. As for your doctor, well how did he come to the states is another question. Collaborating with an enemy of the Russian peoples - Nazi Germany IMO is already a crime that is worthy of full stripment of Cossack rank and honour. Like Dmitry Korchinsky or Taras Chornovill in reverse and on a much greater scale. --Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 20:04, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * You again make an extreme statement - that ALL of the 131,000 Ukrainians of Krasnodar are Ukrainian only on passport and not "svidomy" (nationally conscious). Yes, I have read Gumilev.  He also predicted that in Ukraine only Galicians were "hot" and that the rest of "cool" Ukraine would gravitiate back to Russia.  But clearly he was wrong - as we have seen Kiev and the right bank have gravitated towards Galicia.  The next step might be the south, and eventually maybe Donetsk.  But who knows.  But I love Russia also and appreciate the revival of cossack culture in Russia.

As for our doctor friend - I do not know his background during the war so I will not comment on whether or not he collaborated with the Germans. Most of the Ukrainian diaspora did not; my grandfather for instance moved from Kharkov to Lviv in 1939 to study medicine and decided not to go back to the USSR when the front changed; they might have been classmates. (And if his cossack friend did collaborate with the monster Hitler, is he worse than those who collaborated with monster Stalin who starved millions of Ukrainians and cossacks to death and utterly destroyed the cosack way of life?).
 * Actually if Cossack way of life then it is 1919 the year of genocide than 1933. 1933 actually hit the Don hard, not Kuban, my great great grandfather was part of a relief mission there. Finally a destruction of Cossacks would not have allowed their rebirth in 1937 or 1990 would it? As for Hitler well 26 million of our lives...now that is a monster. Stalin oddly enough I respect, not for the purges (Yezhov and Beria to blame here) or the famines (Pastyshev and Kaganovich) but for his no-bullshit way of solving problems. And yes I would like to see a strong head of Russian right now, as Putin is clearely not the full man many hoped he is, but we are going way too off-course here.

And whether he did or not does not change the fact that he was a very proud cossack from Kuban and he was Ukrainian. So that is why your claim that not a single Kuban Cossack claims to be Ukrainian sounds fantastic to me. Faustian 20:32, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well Pushkin was a proud Russian author, that does not change his ethnicity. Same with Cossacks, my wife btw is from Rivne, sure our children would be half Ukrainian, however they will be raised as Cossacks, and on censuses will tick Cossacks and unquestionably specify themselves as Russians. I mean there are people whose father is Belarusian and mother Tatar, yet they will list themselves as Russians. Cossacks are an equivelent of that. We are not Great or Small Ruthenians we are Cossacks. However Cossacks are as Russian as Carpathian Rusyns are Ukrainain. See the parrallels? Would any Rusyns name themselves Great Ruthenian? NO, none ever did. Same with us, we shall never be those who we are not - Small Ruthenians - Ukrainians. Sorry to dissapoint you, but such is the hard fact of our existance (for svidomy people anyway ;).  --Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 21:33, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Kuban Cossack Identity
Given the conversation and arguments we are having under the NPOV heading above, do most people agree that it should be "few" Kuban cossacks maintaining a Ukrainian identity or "none". PErhaps input from other people can resolve this issue.
 * so where are your few? Some man in Michigan? --Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 17:52, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I know of at least five other families in the Toronto area descended from Kuban cossacks who consider themselves Ukrainian, and NOT Russian, as well a family in Washington, D.C., and several in New Jersey. (the previous reader's comments are at best ignorant - ignorant of his own history (replaced by Soviet propoganda and machinations), and that of the rest of the Kuban Cossack community which he claims to represent)- a Kuban Kozak
 * Some hard facts for you, evidence is presented throught the text.

In 1916 the regiment that Cossacks from our Stanitsa was from, after proudly fighting in the Brusilov breakthrough came under Mustard Gas attack. The gassed soldiers were sent home where they lived. Three of my Greatgranfather were them. As they were sent home they a desiase was brought into the Stanitsa and as the Russian Civil War began most people were simply to sick to fight. Some chose to side with Denikin, but upon retreating his troops managed to make a good loot off the houses. When the Bolsheviks arrived there was nothing to take. Those that did leave with him later settled in London. I'll return to them later. As for us well it was simple peasent life, during the 1933 famine my greatgrandfather was part of the relief mission to the Don. Our stanitsa, Varenikovskaya, which was always famous for its larch Cherry orhads became the largest producer of Cherry in the USSR via a collective farm. In 1930s the only change was that instead of teaching in rural schools with our local dialect, balachka, teaching was done in standard Russian. During the war EVERYBODY fought against the Nazi filth. Shaming that is most inhumane. One of my Grandfathers was a bomber navigator, another was a tank commander. However third row fourth from the left is my third Grandfather in Cossack regiments of the RKKA on the Victory Parade, after going all the way from Stalingrad to Vienna and returning to walk on the Red Square. That pride you can never take away from us. By us I mean that any stanitsa you go to, and Cossack heritage will be everywhere. Back to the London people. In the war they fought as volunteer corps in North Africa and in Italy. In 1988 their descendants chose visit the home stanitsa. One woman was so impressed with the lifestyle that her grandfather so talked about she chose to stay, married a local Cossack, and as a result my English knowledge, as she teaches in the same school that in 1989 they reverted to Balachka teaching. Her children are going to grow up as pride Cossacks despite being ethnically 3/8 English. Well if that is the case about ethnicity that would mean Pushkin or Gogol cannot be considered as Russian authors. Finally were does Ukraine come into this? Where in Ukraine are you going to see people wearing Cherkesskas, dancing Lezginkas or even having such developed horse breeding? As for us in 1989 having nothing it is true, but so did my ancestors in early 19th century when they first set foot on the Kuban land. Yet they, like us, had Cossack will and pride, something none of you kozel-ks (sorry I can't help but to laugh each time I see that twisted word) will ever undertand. So what matters if some generals took away our banners and our regalia, because it is our free blood that is our strongest banner. Despite the destruction of the Zaporozhian sech, our ancestors made the proud Kuban Cossack Host, which fought for our Empire's glory many times. Now we are again here. There are 20 thousand of us, modern weapons, modern training. Combat experience (our ataman is an Afganets, Hero of the Soviet Union btw) and pride in our ancestors. Sorry but I would rather sort out Ukraine's problem first before pointing fingers at us. Btw I underestimated Alexandr Moroz, he trully is a great man. --Kuban Cossack 10:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC) south has no desire to gravitate towards Galicia and i nfact strongly hates any apperance of ukrainian nationalism. The same goes for Donetsk, in fact, even more so
 * 1) In Kuban you will not find more -enkos or -chuks than in any other Russian area.
 * 2) You can be as Chauvistic as you like about us being victims os Soviet propaganda, but remember we are still Kuban Cossacks, and as for Ukraine I can always say it is nothing but Russian land that has fallen victim to Polish/Austrian/Soviet Ukrainisation, and that Ukrainian language is nothing but Polonised Russian.
 * 3) Finally the language we speak itself is fully integrated into literary Russian. We write in Russian. Our dialect has some influences of 18th century Ukrainian as well as many words borrowed from Caucasus tribes.
 * 4) As for emerge families that is Original Research. But perhaps a little bit of history might be better first:

Russia won the war?
Russia won the war?! I would say it lost - it won only the peace, Poland won last battles, but had to sign unfabourable peace despite those victories because of internal situationSzopen 09:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Poland (or Lithuania?) won the war - and lost half its territory? Amusing. -- Ghirla -трёп-  12:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Citation needed.
Beginning in 1795, some of the Black Sea Cossacks moved to the Kuban area where they formed the basis of the Kuban Cossack Host[citation needed].

Will someone please provide a citation for this assertion, else it will have to be removed before long.

Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 16:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


 * There is no need to cite a general knowledge fact. --Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Romanov Monarchy.svg|25px|]] 18:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, you have to remember that this encyclopedia is for the general reader, not the specialist. If you can find a source, we who have little knowledge of the subject would thank you. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 02:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)