Talk:Zen/Archive 2

include www.cuke.com and Crooked Cucumber: the Life and Zen Teaching of Shunryu Suzuki also - dokusan is the Soto term while sanzen the Rinzai

Dogen and Soto stuff
[moving this comment from zen for future use]

There are some errors in text. Dogen was not founder of Soto school, he is the first soto-school ancestor in Japan. Also Rinzai-school was founded by master Rinzai who lived in China. Some generations after Bodhidharma chan divided into 5 major chan shools in China. Only Soto and Rinzai survived into this day.

Zazen is japanese name for sitting meditation (za = to sit). This can include following practises: counting the breath, following breath, koan practize and shikantaza. Shikantaza is this just_sitting practize, pure awareness of this moment.

Dhyana/Channa
channa was removed since dhyana was mentioned. Anyone know why channa was mentioned as the root for Zen? Usedbook 19:18 May 7, 2003 (UTC)


 * I think Channa was a Chinese transliteration of Sanskrit word for meditation, shortened to Chan to refer to the training centers, and then modified to Zen on introduction to Japan. munge 22 August 2004


 * that sounds familiar. there's a book by thomas hoover called zen culture that tells the story (or a version of it) in a really sweetly clear way.  i'm pretty sure he goes into the Chan to Zen thing there.


 * Dhyana in sanskrit actually means 'Knowledge', I'm thinking. Someone should verify that. I'm an Indian, for the record. -Abhijit (mudeth@don't_spam.gmx.net)
 * Dhyana literally means, unless I've been misled, "concentration" but it is often glossed as a term for a yogic practice roughly the same as "meditation". You might be thinking of jñana, which means (and is cognate to) "knowledge". - Nat Krause 09:47, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Recc reading
In the list of recommended reading, "Zen in the Art of Archery" appears. If the list was more than 5 or 6 entries long, I might not have a problem with that book being there, but I can name ten books, easily, which are more pertinent to Zen. It is an interesting book, but personally I think Herrigel (sp?) was full of s--- and the book has very little to do with Zen per se. I just hate to see someone actually use that list to learn more about Zen and end up reading that book. Marteau


 * OK, I went and deleted "Zen in the Art" and added "Into. to Zen". If someone wants to go ahead and put "Zen in the Art" back I don't have a big problem with that and will let it be without question. Marteau


 * Don't put Herringel back in the list. Why? See http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/jjrs/pdf/586.pdf. When it was published, the West was hungry for anything that gave the flavor. That stuff is very dubious compared to what we have available in English today.


 * Update: I see where someone restored mention of Herrigel, this time simply as a book that inspired Western interest in Zen. I guess that's fine, but I might add something to the article at some point that, as documented in the above-mentioned article ("The Myth of Zen in the Art of Archery", Yamada Shoji, Japanese Journal of Religious Studies, 2001, v28, n1-2, p1-30), his archery teacher was not trained in Zen and did not necessarily endorse Zen. And the irony of Herrigel's influence on Western Zen practitioners may be even worse than that; serious allegations arose that on return to Germany, he joined the National Socialists and remained loyal to them to the end. See op. cit. p28 note 14 (did Yamada follow up with a further article on that?). See also "Jung, Christianity, and Buddhism", James W. Heisig, Bulletin of the Nanzan Institute for Religion & Culture, 1999, v23, p85, see esp. note 18, which cites the journal called Encounter, v16, n2, 1961, p96. --Munge 06:43, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

"especially but not exclusively"
Should "The Zen schools (especially but exclusively Rinzai)" be "The Zen schools (especially but not exclusively Rinzai)"?

Note also that the Rinzai sect places more emphasis on koan practice, while the Soto school places more emphasis on shikantaza - it's a lot more than just whether you face the wall or not 8-)

May be good to add a section on Sanbo Kyodan as this is the dominant school in the West and it is expanding. Philip Kapleau and his lineage are part of this school. See http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/ZenPages/ZenSchools.html for the schools and http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVL-Zen.html should definitely be linked.


 * Thanks. -- greenfyre


 * Yes, it should definitely be "(especially but not exclusively Rinzai). I agree that it would be a good addition to have some material on Sanbo Kyodan -- I know a few things about this so I would be happy to contribute or edit. - Nat Krause 16:32, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * It's true they had influence esp in N. America and Australia. But as far as I can tell, no teacher outside Japan is actually a member of Sanbo Kyodan! Contrary to common belief, Kapleau was not authorized as a teacher in that line. See for example note 139 on page http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/ZenPages/HaradaYasutani-refs.html. For the reasons why Robert Aitken found it necessary to end his affiliation with Sanbo Kyodan, seehttp://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/jjrs/pdf/456.pdf page 450.


 * Also, another Rinzai-Soto hybrid lineage, namely that of Maezumi, appears to be another potent force in enabling koan practice in N. America. See for example www.mro.org, especially http://www.mro.org/zmm/dharmateachings/dharmateach(daido).html.munge 22 August 2004


 * A few comments: I think that Sanbo Kyodan does have some teachers outside of Japan. Hugo Enomiya-Lassalle was one before his death.  There's also a Mario Kannon Zen Center in Texas that I think is SBKD affiliated.  An interesting question would be, does Sanbo Kyodan have any teachers outside of Japan who are not also Roman Catholics?  That, I don't know.


 * Phillip Kapleau certainly was authorized to teach by Sanbo Kyodan, but he was not formally given dharma transmission. SBKD and related groups make a very clear distinction.


 * When I get around to writing about it, I will certainly make sure to distinguish between Sanbo Kyodan's influence in the west and its organiztional presence, and you are wise to suggest that others do the same.


 * Taizan Maezumi was, as you say, also an influential zen teacher in the West. You might also be aware that he, too, was sanctioned by Yasutani Haku'un (as well as by regular Rinzai and Soto teachers), so he is also part of Sanbo Kyodan's influence if not its organization. - Nat Krause 06:13, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, Nat, you sure are right. On further investigation, Sanbo Kyodan indeed exists in the West, notably in Germany, and indeed, in US, Canada, and Philipines. Several centers are identified on page http://homepage3.nifty.com/sanbo-zen/master_e.html. Also, after I posted, I remembered that Maezumi received authorization from, among others, Yasutani of SBKD, but I think Maezumi basically started his own line. As for Kapleau, I suppose I shouldn't be so hasty.


 * I would like to say that, while I haven't taken a poll, my impression and personal experience is that Shunryu Suzuki's followers and their heirs are far more numerous than any other Zen school in the US; I do hope to understand better exactly what their attitude toward koans is/was; I can say that several of them have at least some understanding of koans. Meanwhile, the influence of D.T. Suzuki hasn't died down yet; though apparently not an official Rinzai teacher, he certainly brought ideas about koan practice to a wide audience. Anecdotally, the Rinzai temple at Chozen Ji in Hawaii also may have had some interesting affects; martial arts teachers who've studied there may be assigning koans to some of their students. The universes of Zen and koan practice in the US do not emerge from one school only. But as things happened, it did turn out that my experience has been from teachers who splintered away one or two generations from Sanbo Kyodan. --munge 27 August 2004


 * Hmmm, yes, I didn't mean to imply that I agreed with the comment at the beginning of this thread that Sanbo Kyodan is "dominant". I think that the group's influence arises more from the books written by Aitken and Kapleau than from the preponderance of actual affiliated zen groups, although there are more than a few of each.  As for the Suzuki people being far more numerous, that seems like the impression you would get from them, at least that's the impression I got reading Shoes Outside the Door, which portrayed them (maybe unfairly, I don't know) as almost obsessed with their central role in American Zen.  If I had to guess, I would imagine that Suzuki's descendents are comfortably the largest Zen line in the US, but well less than half of the total practitioners.  There are an awful lot of those Maezumi people out there, too, when you consider that his students included Bernard Glassman, John Daido Loori, and Charlotte Joko Beck. Plus a large number of Kwan Um School centers, orthodox Soto temples, etc., etc.  I'm not even sure how to figure in the influence of Thich Nhat Hanh.


 * Incidentally, I visited the Chozen-ji affiliate in Chicago one time, which was housed in an aikido academy. It was interesting (I have no criticisms, only went there once).  Their founder, Omori Sogen, was a character, too. - Nat Krause 10:20, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * In the last week, I've talked in person and separately to two disciples of Shunryu Suzuki, one of whom is fairly prominent. Both confirmed that Suzuki roshi would sometimes assign a koan for meditation to particular students, for the temporary purpose of addressing some point of practice. I'm also aware of someone in that lineage who has done likewise, and another who formerly gave regular koan seminars.


 * I have a hazy report of an aikido teacher in a different city who himself formerly studied w/Sogen's successor at Chozen-ji, and who apparently assigned a koan to an aikido student. And while visiting Japan a couple years back, I also saw a book on aikido which recommended meditation on the (Gaugin-like) questions "where do I come from? What am I? Where am I going?". Various inconclusive results appear when googling koan along with karate, judo, or aikido. (As for Sogen himself, don't even get me started.) --munge 3 September 2004


 * By popular demand, added some easily-digestible language about the "sound of one hand" on this page, and more on koan. I am bound for hell anyway. --munge 2 October 2004

Glossary
I just moved all the Zen glossary material to Buddhist terms and concepts. Do they still serve a useful purpose here, or should they be culled?&#2325;&#2369;&#2325;&#2381;&#2325;&#2369;&#2352;&#2379;&#2357;&#2366;&#2330; 05:44, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Just killed the glossary.&#2325;&#2369;&#2325;&#2381;&#2325;&#2369;&#2352;&#2379;&#2357;&#2366;&#2330; 20:20, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Zen and its nationalities
Should the page attempt to cover all Zen, or just give an overview and then point on? Also, should Japanese Zen, specifically, be relocated to a new page? Or should a new overview page be created (something ugly like Dhyana (Buddhist sect))?&#2325;&#2369;&#2325;&#2381;&#2325;&#2369;&#2352;&#2379;&#2357;&#2366;&#2330; 20:20, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Some edits
Okay, I fixed some grammar and whatnot, deleted some weird statements, and added a little structure. I also removed an extensive quotation from the Platform Sutra, which might fare better under that article, and the following:

From this point of view, Zen is, instead of a religion, rather an undefinable origin, beyond all words and concepts, which can only be experienced on an individual level. In Zen, Prajna, i.e., direct intuitive wisdom, is to Buddhism what Gnosis is to Hellenism and Christianity. All religions originated from more concrete expressions of Prajna, and as such Zen is not bound to any materialist view of religion at all, even not Buddhism. Zen is then the fundamental perfection of awareness in relation to everything existing, and is known by all the great saints and sages of all times. Zazen is then, both a method to bring people to liberation and an expression and realization of the perfection already present in every person.

&#2325;&#2369;&#2325;&#2381;&#2325;&#2369;&#2352;&#2379;&#2357;&#2366;&#2330; 20:51, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and for the record, I'm fully in favor of someone scrapping this entire article and writing a new one.&#2325;&#2369;&#2325;&#2381;&#2325;&#2369;&#2352;&#2379;&#2357;&#2366;&#2330;


 * Scrapping and rewriting would be a good idea, we just have to enlist someone to do it. I really don't want to myself, although I would be happy to edit and copyedit.  I do think that the "Zen" article should cover Zen/Dhyana School in various countries.  The word "Zen" is used very commonly by Koreans (I'm thinking of the Kwan Um School of Zen and Samu Sunim's Zen Buddhist Temples), I think Vietnamese, and of course Japanese when talking in English.  Sometimes even by Chinese (Zen Buddhist Order of Hsu Yun), although they seem to prefer Ch&aacute;n.  Whereas nobody ever says Dhyana School that I've heard.  In might be a good idea to have a separate "Japanese Zen" article.  On the Chinese wiki, they have an article on "Ch&aacute;n" and a separate one for "Chinese Ch&aacute;n". - Nat Krause 04:07, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Zen-Taoism thingie
What are the proofs that Zen Buddhism incorporates Taoist thoughts? Mandel - May 15, 2004


 * It's pretty commonly accepted that Buddhism became influenced by Taoism as it reached China, Japan and Korea. A text that addresses the similarities well is Mystics and Zen Masters by Thomas Merton.  Thirdreel 21:18, 15 May 2004 (UTC)


 * The problem with including the Taoism connection here isn't that Buddhism isn't Taoism-influenced, which should be undisputed, it's whether Zen is especially so. -- &#2325;&#2369;&#2325;&#2381;&#2325;&#2369;&#2352;&#2379;&#2357;&#2366;&#2330;|Talk&#8253; 22:49, May 15, 2004 (UTC)


 * Perhaps I wasn't being entirely clear here. Zen Buddhism is specifically linked to Japan, China, and Korea.  It is a form of Buddhism that is closer to Taoism than the Buddhist sects who vectored in different directions--Sri Lanka, Tibet, Nepal, or India.  Compared to Theravada and Vajrayana, Zen is especially influenced by Taoism.  I'm not sure how the Taoist influence plays out in the Japanese and Chinese sects other than Zen.  I don't have my Merton on me right

now, but I'll look for it soon and see what he has to say. Thirdreel 01:11, 16 May 2004 (UTC)


 * There's no direct Taoist influence (at an early period, anyway) on any Buddhist schools that are not either Chinese themselves or descended from Chinese schools. However, the Taoist-Buddhist interchange affected all those schools; it was inevitable, as they were competing for the same audience, really, in the Chinese philosophical landscape...results varied widely. You get stuff like identifications of Lao-Tzu and Buddha, at the extreme, to more nuanced and subtle cross-incorporations of ideas and practices. And this process began the instant Buddhism set foot in China, well before the foundation of a clear Chan/Zen school or schools. -- &#2325;&#2369;&#2325;&#2381;&#2325;&#2369;&#2352;&#2379;&#2357;&#2366;&#2330;|Talk&#8253; 00:32, May 17, 2004 (UTC)


 * But Zen Buddhism being close to Taoism may not necessarily mean that one influenced the other. Theoretically, it's possible that they contain similarities but reach them independently, as Newton and Leibniz did in calculus. Or that China and Japan find it easier to accept Zen Buddhism precisely because they were exposed to similar thoughts in Taoism? Mandel 19:23, 16 May 2004 (UTC)


 * I suppose that might theoretically be the case, but pretty much all sources I heard of tell me otherwise. The comparison with calculus isn't really very adequate - mathematics is an abstract matter, while religious tradictions are very much cultural phenomena.  They do and must influence each other, mainly by way of their teachers.  For Buddhism it is a matter of course that it should adapt to local culture and beliefs.  Even some Pali Canon Suttas make that very clear indeed - take for instance Digha Nikaya 31, the Sigalovada Sutta, which makes a point to adopt the language and customs of the layperson who receives the teaching.


 * I suppose as a cultural phenomenon, you could say Taoism and Buddhism influenced each other. But what I mean is Zen as a religio-philosophical belief system.  It's strange different people hear different things, that's why I feel it's important to have some proof.  The similarity between the two is very easy to draw; yet what I would like is some concrete evidence that some Zen teachings is derived from or influenced by Taoist thoughts, and is so passed down.


 * Supposing if it's true, then it should be easy to say where exactly Zen Buddhism incorporates Taoist thoughts. Mandel 22:32, 16 May 2004 (UTC)


 * For one thing, both teachings have a tendency of catching one unaware, and an almost humoristic outlook at practice - without ever letting go of the appreciaton of proper attitude and behavior, mind you. What in your opinion would be the difference between a cultural phenomenom and a religious-philosophical system, btw?  I don't think it can honestly be said that there is one that is not arbitrary, at least as long as we are talking about Taoism and Buddhism.  Luis Dantas 00:15, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Looking at the text again, I can see why this is becoming an issue of debate. Since Taoism is mentioned in the first sentence, a new reader might be led to believe that there's a simple equation, Zen = Buddhism + Taoism, which is of course oversimplifying it. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to remove the mention of Taoism from the first paragraph, and make a section later in the article which discusses Zen and Tao in a little more detail.

I should also mention that "creeping Taoism" can be an accusation. So I really advice to avoid starting a polemic right from the start of the article by presenting a POV as a fact. FWBOarticle 15:53, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Buddhism and Taoism have inflenced each other in east Asia for 2,000 years now. In the Neo-Confucian school you may add Confucian thought to the mix. They treat similar issues, after all. In China, at least, the I Ching and especially Zhuangzi are quite popular reading with many Chan practitioners. As well, in pre-revolutionary days Taoist monks were welcome to stay in most Buddhist monasteries and vice versa. Fire Star 05:30, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

A 'clear' reference to the place of Taoism (and Confucianism, which might be another section of this entry) in the development of Chan is the figure of Sengzhao (aka Seng-chao) whose birth is currently believed to be 374CE (though previous scholarship placed it in 383CE) and who lived on the cusp of the development of Chan (he helps structure its birth) when the Mahayana sutras were still being received into China and authoritatively translated. Without going into as much detail as I could, Sengzhao developed a particular fondness for Lao-tzu and Chuang-tzu from whose writing Sengzhao learned the classical literary style and rhetorical skills (which influence the translations of key *dear to what will be Chan/Zen* sutras that I'll mention in a moment). Sometime between his 15th and 20th birthdays he was assigned by the 'king' Yao Hsing to work with the learned Indian monk Kumarajiva. Together they translated and re-edited many buddhist texts (that become central to Chan) including the 'Vimalakirti Sutra'. The translations garnered comparisions with the famous neo-Taoist author P'ing-shun, and enjoyed wide distribution within the monastic communities of Hsiao-yao and Lu-shan. For substantiation of this information see 'The Encyclopedia of Asian Philosophy' Oliver Leaman, ed. (Routledge, 2001). This entry: 17 October 2005 MatthewStevenCarlos

TANGOZEN??
Okay, there's something deeply wrong with that. -- &#2325;&#2369;&#2325;&#2381;&#2325;&#2369;&#2352;&#2379;&#2357;&#2366;&#2330;|Talk&#8253;
 * Very wrong. It's a plug. I say delete it.Goethean 18:00, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Irrelevant link
I really don't think this recently added link (|Sit Down and Shut Up!) is really relevant. It has a couple things about Zen buddism on the page, but mostly it just seems to be someones almost-blog. I'm removing it, but if anyone disagrees and wants to put it back then here is the link for you to copy and paste. |Sit Down and Shut Up! Russco 15:30, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, I like the page, and it is almost all about Zen. On the other hand, itis just one guy's opinion.  Back on the first hand, what isn't?  Something written by committee?  I'm thinking about it. - Nat Krause 15:44, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

New Age category
I've removed the "New Age" categorization, as Zen is not at all "new age"; it's a pretty old phenomenon. -- &#2325;&#2369;&#2325;&#2381;&#2325;&#2369;&#2352;&#2379;&#2357;&#2366;&#2330;|Talk&#8253; 02:06, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Kensho
Private sessions with a teacher are not kensho, as the article claims. Kensho is a sudden experience of awakening, of seeing into ones true nature. Private interviews with a teacher are called dokusan.


 * Good heavens, yes. In the future, please feel free to be bold and fix stuff like this yourself.  Thanks for the heads-up. - Nat Krause 23:13, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Zen Buddhism vs. Ordinary Zen
Is anyone clear on the distinction that the article currently makes between "Zen Buddhism" and "Ordinary Zen"? What are the examples of "ordinary Zen" that we are referring to? I actually have a vague idea myself, but would like to clarify it considerably. Phillip Kapleau alludes to the possibility of contrasting "Zen" and "Zen Buddhism" in one of his books. In Three Pillars he also memorably quotes Yasutani in describing bompu zen, literally "ordinary" zen, which is basically the practice only for its physical and mental health benefits. However, I don't think these are the same ideas as each other, and I'm not sure what the best way, if any, to present them in an encyclopedic format is. - Nat Krause 03:17, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I've heard of people distinguishing Zen and Zen Buddhism, but I think it's a fine point. Philip Toshio Sudo makes this distinction--he says that you can follow Zen as a way of life, so being a "Zen Christian" or a "Zen Muslim" or a "Zen Buddhist" is all the same thing.  It's possibly worth a mention, but I don't think it belongs in the first paragraph.  Thirdreel 15:01, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * added link to darkzen.org, which nicely debunks Bonpu Zen as anti-intellectual denial and group dynamics. Goes back to Bodhidarma to do so, has the Lankavatara Sutra on his side. Let your heart decide.


 * zen -- practice, Buddhism -- (i'm not sure)..?

Private interviews with a teacher are called dokusan. - "dokusan" is Soto term. "sanzen" is the Rinzai term.

WWII
Some years ago a westerner asked attention for the role of Zen and its masters during the second world war. Zen being part of the bushido (with Shinto, Taoism and Confucianism) contributed to the war/warrior spirit of the Japanese. Do you think this should be part of the article?


 * It would be a good addition, if done well. I keep meaning to write an article on Brian Victoria's Zen at War.