Talk:Zeno of Elea/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: L'OrfeoGreco (talk · contribs) 21:21, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

This subject is of great interest to me; I am very pleased to have the chance to review it. For a start, I would like to congratulate the contributor(s) on their general effort. I want them to be certain that no corrective comment made by myself is meant to offend them personally or diminish the importance of their contribution to the Wikipedia project. Having made that clear, we can now proceed to my comments and/or suggestions, formulated on the basis of the GA promotion criteria:

a. Language

 * Lead Section, maybe link space, time, and motion? These notions are of great importance in this instance. L'OrfeoSon io 12:00, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Lead Section, Zeno's arguments are divided into... required to cross any distance.
 * It would be nicer if repetition of the words and phrases "arguments" and "invoke the idea" was eradicated. I suggest rephrasing the repetitions to aid the flow of narration. L'OrfeoSon io 12:00, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Lead Section, His ideas have influenced philosophy and mathematics, both in ancient and modern times. Many of his ideas.
 * Here again, the repetition of "his ideas" is problematic. May I suggest "His ideas have influenced philosophy and mathematics, both in ancient and modern times. Many of the notions he introduced". L'OrfeoSon io 12:00, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Thebiguglyalien, I do appreciate your effort, but cannot help but say the new repetition is more problematic than the previous one.
 * His philosophy has influenced philosophy....
 * Try the suggestion I made above, or something else, but, please, do not leave it as it is. L'OrfeoSon io 08:57, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Replaced with "paradoxes", this way it's clearer what specifically is being discussed. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 14:05, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Excellent. L'OrfeoSon io 14:13, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Life, Zeno was born c. 490 BC.
 * Since this is the main body we are dealing with, the use c. is not so suitable; usually, in the main body all the details pertaining to a person's biography are given in full form. I think "Zeno was born at around 490 BC." L'OrfeoSon io 12:07, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware of any standard like this, and I don't see anything about this at MOS:CIRCA where it says that "c." is preferred. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed, but since "the use of the c. template is preferred at first occurrence over just c.", the second c.  should be removed. L'OrfeoSon io 10:37, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 14:05, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Life, Zeno is portrayed in the dialogue Parmenides by Plato, which takes place when Zeno is about 40 years old.
 * Again, to avoid repetition of the philosopher's name, I'd suggest " Zeno is portrayed... which takes place when he is about 40 years old." or "when the Eleatic is", or something of the sort. L'OrfeoSon io 12:07, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Repetition is necessary to distinguish Zeno from Plato, and nicknames like "the Eleatic" are less clear than just saying his name. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Accepted. L'OrfeoSon io 08:58, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Life, In Parmenides, Zeno is described as having once been a zealous defender of his instructor Parmenides. This younger Zeno wished to prove that belief in the physical world as it appears is more absurd than belief in the Eleatic idea of a single entity of existence.
 * May I suggest using a semicolon to link these two sentences? They are closely related in terms of meaning. ("In Parmenides, Zeno is ... Parmenides; this younger Zeno wished to prove... existence.) L'OrfeoSon io 12:16, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Life, This younger Zeno wished to prove that belief in the physical world as it appears is more absurd than belief in the Eleatic idea of a single entity of existence.
 * Link "existence" to Existence. L'OrfeoSon io 20:01, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Life, Socrates also hints at a previous romantic or sexual relationship between Parmenides and Zeno.
 * Here we have a serious issue of context: this sentence is much too potent to be given without a few more details. I would suggest adding at which work —not Socrates', he wrote none— and by whom it was written that Socrates insinuated such a relationship; it would also be nice if some small description of the relationship's nature was given, without aiming at sensationalism. L'OrfeoSon io 12:16, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Clarified that it was Plato's writing. There aren't really any further details beyond this. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Quite better. L'OrfeoSon io 08:59, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Life, Zeno died c. 430 BC.
 * Same as with the aforementioned issue. L'OrfeoSon io 12:24, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Solved above, OK. L'OrfeoSon io 08:59, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Life, Zeno was killed while he was engaged in a plot to overthrow the tyrant Nearchus..
 * Link "Nearchus" to Nearchus of Elea. L'OrfeoSon io 12:24, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Philosophy, While Melissus sought to build on them, Zeno instead confronted other ideas and argued against them..
 * The sentence doesn't really make sense in its present form. I suspect what is meant is that "Zeno instead confronted ideas which were contrary to monism, and argued against them." L'OrfeoSon io 15:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Changed to hopefully be clearer. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Much better, thank you. L'OrfeoSon io 09:00, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Philosophy, These arguments would have...particularly those of the Pythagoreans.
 * This sentence should be altered to "Such arguments...Pythagoreans", to ensure continuity of meaning. L'OrfeoSon io 15:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Philosophy, Aristotle described Zeno as the "inventor of dialectic".
 * Link "dialectic" to Dialectic. L'OrfeoSon io 15:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Philosophy,  Zeno's philosophy makes use of infinitesimals, or quantities that are infinitely small while still being greater than zero.
 * The sentence comes in suddenly. To aid the flow of narration, I would suggest adding a coordinating transition word before it ("Moreover,", "Furthermore", something of the like). L'OrfeoSon io 15:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Philosophy,Criticism of Zeno's ideas may accuse him with using rhetorical tricks and sophistry rather than cogent arguments.
 * Link "rhetorical tricks" to Rhetoric and "sophistry" to Sophist. L'OrfeoSon io 15:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Philosophy, Critics point to...
 * Perhaps this is a weasel word that could be rephrased? L'OrfeoSon io 15:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The source just says Some say. It seems to be a general discussion of the type of criticism. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * OK then, L'OrfeoSon io 09:01, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Philosophy, He may be accused of comparing similarities between concepts, such as attributes that physical space shared with physical objects, and then assuming that they be identical in other ways.
 * Repetition of "attributes", I suggest that a synonym is placed in the word's place. L'OrfeoSon io 15:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd rather use attributes again so it's clear that we're still talking about the same criticism. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, minor issue. L'OrfeoSon io 09:02, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Philosophy, Plurality and space, Zeno rejected the idea of plurality, or that more than one thing can exist.
 * Link "plurality" to Pluralism (philosophy). L'OrfeoSon io 15:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Philosophy, Plurality and space, ...is recorded by Simplicius. According to Simplicius,...
 * Avoid repetition of "Siplicius". I suggest "...by Siplicius. According to him,..."
 * Done. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Philosophy, Plurality and space, In another argument, Zeno proposed that multiple objects... He held that in order... dividing them.
 * Second sentence closely related to the first, I would suggest using a semicolon to link them, i.e. "In another argument, Zeno... ovjects; He...". L'OrfeoSon io 20:01, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Philosophy, Plurality and space, He argued from the assumption that for all things that exist, they must exist in a certain point in physical space
 * Although I personally understand the meaning of this sentence, I sense it will bewilder most readers... Could the contributor(s) make it a bit more clear? L'OrfeoSon io 20:01, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I removed the phrase "argued from the assumption", but I don't know if the latter half can be made simpler. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Great move, much clearer now! L'OrfeoSon io 09:03, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Philosophy, Motion and time, argues that a swift runner such as Achilles can never catch up to a slow runner, such as a tortoise
 * (Maybe) link "tortoise" to tortoise? L'OrfeoSon io 20:01, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Seems like overlinking. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * You're probably right, ok. L'OrfeoSon io 09:03, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Legacy, Ancient philosophy, of interest to Ancient Greek mathematicians
 * Link "Ancient Greek mathematicians" to "Greek mathematics". L'OrfeoSon io 20:21, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Legacy, Ancient philosophy, Zeno was succeeded by the Greek Atomists...
 * Link "Greek Atomists" as a whole to Atomism. L'OrfeoSon io 20:33, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Legacy, Ancient philosophy, Aristotle disagreed, believing them to be worthy of consideration. Aristotle challenged... Aristotle contented... Aristotle also challenged... to pass. The paradox of Achilles and the tortoise may have influenced Aristotle's...Zeno's arguments.
 * Extensive repetition of "Aristotle". Try "Aristotle disagreed...consideration.He  challenged... He contended... Aristotle also challenged Zeno's...to pass. The paradox... may have influenced the Stagirite philosopher's belief that... Zeno's arguments". L'OrfeoSon io 20:33, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Changed most of the Aristotles to hes. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Legacy, Modern era, His philosophy shows a contrast between
 * Here, "his" should become "Zeno's", since the previous sentences refer not to the subject itself, but to an object the subject produced (the paradoxes). L'OrfeoSon io 09:49, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 14:05, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Legacy, Modern era, ...this practice was later adopted by the modern philosophic schools of thought empiricism and post-structuralism
 * Add comma between "of thought" and "empiricism and post-structuralism". L'OrfeoSon io 09:49, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 14:05, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Legacy, Modern era, Zeno's arguments against plurality... Zeno's arguments against motion... and physics
 * A coordinating transition word before "Zeno's arguments against motion" would make the text feel less like a list. L'OrfeoSon io 09:51, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Added a "likewise". Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 14:05, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Fine! L'OrfeoSon io 14:14, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Legacy, Modern era, Mathematics and philosophy continued studying infinitesimals
 * "Mathematicians and philosophers continued studying..." is more proper, since, logically speaking, people can "study", while sciences cannot. L'OrfeoSon io 09:49, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 14:05, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Legacy, Modern era, There is no definitive agreement...
 * Since this is the final sentence, indeed contrasting the previous statements, a "However", or a "To this day" or something of the sort should be placed before it. L'OrfeoSon io 09:49, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Added "however". Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 14:05, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Great. L'OrfeoSon io 14:14, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

b. Manual of Style (structure, form, etc.)

 * Life (structure and context), The writings of Zeno ... of present day knowledge about Zeno.
 * Maybe this last paragraph could constitute a separate section or subsection named "Works and sources", as is the case with Socrates? I would like to hear the contributor(s) opinion on this suggestion. L'OrfeoSon io 12:24, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Separated it as a subsection titled "Writings". I don't want to use "sources" because that's too similar to "references". Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Fine. L'OrfeoSon io 09:05, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Legacy, Ancient philosophy
 * The paragraph includes various references to mathematics, mathematical thought and practice, and thus the section's title "Ancient philosophy" is not exactly suitable. It would be more fit to name the section "Antiquity", for it to also match the section named "Modern era", a title that includes no reference to philosophy or mathematics, but rather to a time period. L'OrfeoSon io 20:22, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * General comment: "Behaviour" is British English, but other than that, I could not find clear signs of British or American English. If a decision is made, the respective signs should be placed above the article's first sentence and at the talk page. L'OrfeoSon io 09:49, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I wrote the article in American English, but I had copied that text from a different article. Fixed and added the use American English template. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 14:05, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

a. List of all references included

 * True. I'd like to note that in the "References section", writers like "Vlastos, Gregory" that have a respective Wikipedia article should be linked to it. L'OrfeoSon io 14:17, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Thebiguglyalien I just found out that this is the one comment I'd like you to address. I'll now get the spot-check going, so that the article can pass within this week. L'OrfeoSon io 08:15, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi - sorry to butt in as an outsider; it looks like tbua's been away since the end of the WikiCup (a few weeks now), leaving several GANs open - one has already failed because of this, which is a dreadful shame. I've added links to the References and Further Reading sections - there's a few authors which have decent pages on WikiData, so I can link those too if you want. 11:29, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your timely intervention fellow Wikipedian, you are most welcome.
 * Since our initial cooperation had been just fine, and bearing in mind that TBUA is an excellent GA-nominator and contributor, I soon came to realise that something wasn't quite alright. I hope all is well with the user —in terms of personal health, at least.
 * I'll just finish the spot-checking and pass the article; I wouldn't fail it, because this particular user had expressed interest in the procedure early on. L'OrfeoSon io 12:47 4 December 2023 (UTC)

b. Reliable sources are cited inline

 * Yes. L'OrfeoSon io 20:39, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Sources spot-checking
Note: I'll work on this section only after the nominator responds. L'OrfeoSon io 16:04, 2 November 2023 (UTC) Update: L'OrfeoSon io 14:22, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) [1]b: Correct page, source-text correspondence
 * 2) [4]a: Correct page, source-text correspondence
 * 3) [3]d: Source-text correspondence
 * 4) [9]a: Correct page, source-text correspondence
 * 5) [13]a: Correct page, source-text correspondence
 * 6) [17]: Correct page, source-text correspondence
 * 7) [20]: Correct page, source-text correspondence
 * 8) [25]b: Correct page, source-text correspondence
 * 9) [28]a: Correct page, source-text correspondence
 * 10) [32]: In the source, the Quantum Zeno effect is indeed described, but I found no direct linkage of the arrow paradox to the QZ effect. For this reason, I found a reliable (Cambridge University Press and recent (published in 2023) source in which the arrow paradox and the QZE are directly linked (the source is "Quantum Theory, A Foundational Approach" by Charis Anastopoulos). I citated the source following the style used by the main contributor, i.e. that for sources cited only once and for very specific subjects, such as quantum mechanics, Harvard style referencing is not preferred.

c. No original research

 * None traced. L'OrfeoSon io 20:39, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

d. No copyright violations

 * Earwig's Copyvio showed "Violation Unlikely 5.7%", OK L'OrfeoSon io 20:21, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

a. Main aspects addressed

 * Life, surviving ideas, legacy. Most of the things to be mentioned are included. L'OrfeoSon io 09:58, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

b. No out-of-focus text

 * None. L'OrfeoSon io 09:58, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

4th Criterion: Neutral

 * The philosopher's surviving arguments, their influence and acceptance are presented. (At least some of) those who opposed them are also included. L'OrfeoSon io 20:39, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

5th Criterion: Stable

 * OK. The User:Thebiguglyalien was the sole user to contribute to the article for the last month or so. L'OrfeoSon io 20:41, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

a. Media are of clearly stated copyright statuses

 * Yes. L'OrfeoSon io 20:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

b. Media are relevant

 * Certainly so. L'OrfeoSon io 20:39, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Miscellaneous comments

 * not found link at the "External links"; I suggest that the link is given with a reference to the source (here it is the "Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy"), like Palmer, John. "Zeno of Elea". In Zalta, Edward N. (ed.). Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. The same should be done with the external links "Plato's Parmenides", "Aristotle's Physics" and "Fragments of Zeno", to ensure style uniformity. L'OrfeoSon io 10:16, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I've removed several of the external links. The main ones, including a Wikisource link to works relating to Zeno, should be sufficient. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 14:05, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * As you see fit, fine by me. L'OrfeoSon io 14:15, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Review result
All problems addressed, all criteria met. Passed, Congratulations! L'OrfeoSon io 14:22, 4 December 2023 (UTC)