Talk:Zhe (Cyrillic)

Official ж-looking frog discussion
5 for, 2 against. --Guugolpl0x (talk) 22:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I propose the frog should be kept. I've restored the frog picture because not only do people wish to keep it, it is a relevant image. --Guugolpl0x (talk) 19:10, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Zhe is one of the first letters learned by children who learn to write in Slavic languages other than Russian, because it looks quite like a young frog floating in a pond, and in these languages the word meaning "frog" is written "жаба".
 * This has already been proposed and everyone has agreed. I guess we just haven't been looking very closely.  Thanks for restoring it.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  03:14, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

'''The below are all past discussions. It would be better if all future discussion happened above.''' --Guugolpl0x (talk) 22:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Let's start a new discussion
Okay then, lets forget previous discussions and start here a discussion about the zhe-looking frog. I will request an admin to protect until the dispute is solved. --FixmanPraise me 13:47, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Remove Because there is no italy-looking boot on the Italy article. --FixmanPraise me 13:47, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * No, let's not forget previous discussion. Several editors are in favour of leaving the image in the article.  As the lone dissenter you'd rather ignore this, but that's not how it works around here. —Michael Z. 2008-11-30 18:06 z 
 * Yeah, I'm not advocating forgetting previous discussions, just to discuss it anew; and I don't think a straw poll is appropriate here. There's also no need to protect the page if all editors involved agree to not change the related parts of the article until a consensus is reached.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  20:03, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Everyone. Well, lone nay-sayer.  Everybody but you wants to keep the frog in the page.  You do know how Wikipedia works, right?  --Guugolpl0x (talk) 15:55, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

kids, frogs and toads
Moving the following here from the main page
 * Zhe is one of the first letters learned by children who learn to write in Slavic languages other than Russian, because it looks quite like a young frog floating in a pond, and in these languages the word meaning "frog" is written "жаба".

as this sounds suspiciously like an original research to me. My 2-year old girl indeed associates Ж with the word "жаба", but жаба in Russian (her and my mother-tongue) is a toad, not a frog. What are the other Slavic languages referred to in which it's actually a frog? BACbKA 18:46, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * What is a frog in Russian? In Ukrainian, I believe it means either, although I would say ропуха if I meant a toad specifically.  The passage is not particularly encyclopedic, but I find that little bits like this can add interest and personality to an article.  Why not omit the "other than Russian" reference, and change the ending to '... and жаба means "frog" or "toad"'?  —Michael Z. 21:19, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
 * In Russian, a frog is лягушка, while a toad is жаба. Thanks for your clarifications! BACbKA 22:15, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Same in Polish 'żaba' means frog, 'ropucha' -> toad; in Bulgarian 'жаба' also means frog, intestingly enough, the word entered Yiddish as such 'זשאַבע' (frog), there's quite a list here . PS - mazal-tov BACbKA! Oyd11 15:13, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Can I just say one thing? Okay :). Is the "ж-looking frog" image really necessary? I find it a little silly, and it's not exactly something you would find in a professional encyclopedia.Cloudy fox 001 (talk) 06:49, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

The Zhe frog
[copied from user talk:Mzajac and user talk:Fixman.]

The first paragraph (kids, frogs and toads) doesn't show any consensus besides of the original author, the second one (What's with the frog picture?), shows clear consensus on deleting the image (note that the comment by Guugolpl0x is a joke, it shows an animated gif with the frog and the scream). --FixmanPraise me 23:23, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree. In the first section, three of us discuss the appropriateness of the frog image, and no one ends up suggesting removing it.  In the second, seven of us (and an anon) discuss it—Twilight Realm says he's undecided, and three including Guugolpl0x, plus the anon, express favour for it, while no one suggests removing it (why would you think G didn't mean it when he said he's glad to se it back?).  If you look at the article's history, you'll see that it's been restored by several editors.  I don't see any evidence of consensus to change the article. —Michael Z. 2008-11-24 00:20 z 

And please don't start a revert-war. You and I disagree, and you haven't demonstrated that there is consensus supporting your edit. —Michael Z. 2008-11-24 00:25 z 


 * Fixman, please stop removing the section. You can't do this without an agreement. --Anatoli (talk) 00:58, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The picture is always up for a discussion to establish a new consensus. I have always been in support of the frog picture and maintain my position.  If we ever find a better picture (i.e. one from an actual children's book) then we can replace the current frog picture with it. — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  01:10, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Note that Fixman has been removing more than just the picture but some sections of the article. --Anatoli (talk) 02:39, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

What's with the frog picture?
Ok, it's got some humor value, but should it really stay? Twilight Realm 03:58, 11 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I could see a page from a children's alphabet book (which would have a good chance of featuring a frog) being a good replacement. Until then, why not leave it?  —Michael Z. 2005-10-11 05:22 Z 

It doesn't really have anything to do with the character. It's not really something an encyclopedia would normally have. But it does add interest, that's not a bad thing. I'm undecided. Twilight Realm 01:21, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

It looks like the frog is on top of a tortilla. BirdValiant 01:55, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Frog taco, traditional Slavic treat. —Michael Z. 2006-02-13 06:50 Z 


 * Well, that certainly makes for a crunchy taco. AEuSoes1 08:05, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I deleted the little frog once because I had misread the article. Since there is a mention to frogs in the article – and note that the mention is not misplaced — there a good reason to KEEP the frog. José San Martin 02:00, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Still, is a trifle odd, if not rather cute. --DanielCD 14:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

So glad to see the frog back!

People: The frog is a vitally important part of this page, as detailed here. The zhe-looking frog. --Guugolpl0x (talk) 14:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

[convulses on office floor] —Michael Z. 2008-07-29 04:12 z 

As a co-creator of the above image, I agree that this fine specimen should continue to grace Wikipedia. 168.150.253.56 (talk) 05:28, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the doggone frog picture is rediculous. Sure, it is pretty funny, and that's all well and good.... for a funny article, maybe. But, this isn't meant to be a funny article; it's meant to be a factual article. In my opinion, an image like that only belongs in an Uncyclopedia article. :3 Sorry if I'm nagging XD EDIT: Oh, by the way, I removed the stupid frog picture. Cloudy fox 001 (talk) 06:53, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Cloudy, that's not how Wikipedia works. --Guugolpl0x (talk) 15:52, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Macedonian is Greek
Macedonian is a dialect of Greek the 8th letter of which is theta in modern Greek and hta in numerals. It is not written in Cyrillic. Please do not alter my correction.--AtaturkthePuff 20:10, 3 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Zhe is a letter in the language described by the article entitled Macedonian language. If you believe that that article is misnamed, then I suggest you go through the procedure at Requested moves to move it to another name, then update the link here.  If there are political issues surrounding ownership of the name Macedonian, they should be resolved before affecting this article.  —Michael Z. 2005-10-4 12:54 Z 

Could this be related to Latin Ex or Greek chi?
It looks vaguely similar and it wouldn't be impossible to have ks>gz>z>zh, but chi seems less likely...Cameron Nedland 02:33, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Well apparantly no one is sure. I'd rather not include unsourced speculations.  What with our no original research policy.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 04:06, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah true. No Original Research.  Stupid policies.  Just kidding.Cameron Nedland 05:27, 11 November 2006 (UTC)\
 * I think that it likely derives from Greek chi because the "zh" sound which this letter represents is derived from 1st-palatalised "g". The sounds "g" and "kh" are quite similar. 2A00:23C7:5882:8201:65A0:20F1:8454:2E5F (talk) 23:51, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

The idea that the letter was formed from two Hebrew letters ש, one on top of the other and the bottom one inverted, is completely my own idea. I say this because it says “Citation needed.”

pronunciation examples
I don't think "garage" is a very good example. It's pronounced differntly in the UK than in the US. Here in the US, the second "g" in "garage" is usually pronounced like a regular "j" sound, like in "juice," "jungle," etc. other times it's pronounced like the "s" in "Asia" or the "g" in "mirage" which I believe is what they mean it sounds like. 65.101.149.140 (talk) 06:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
 * "Garage" is indeed a bad example, with no clearly dominant pronunciation either in the UK or in the US. A lot of people in the UK rhyme it with "marriage", even. I'll go ahead and change it to "mirage". --219.250.46.220 (talk) 15:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Transliteration
Regarding this edit:


 * 1) ž is found in several Slavic languages, including Czech, Slovak, Slovenian, Croatian, Bosnian, Latin Serbian, and Sorbian.  However, the transliteration convention is based on the Croatian alphabet.  Please see scientific transliteration for details.  This article isn't about the Latin letter.
 * 2) I don't see the point in mentioning transliteration of Bulgarian.  As the sentence already implies, the letter is used to transliterate ж from any Cyrillic-alphabet language.

—Michael Z. 2008-09-23 23:19 z 


 * All right, you convinced me. I am surprised that J is not mentioned. It was almost a rule that Russian passports were transliterated using French spelling. e.g. Nadejda, Jdanov, Jukov, which was also (most of the time) reflected how Russian called themselves when they lived overseas (any country with Roman script) because if a person called Juravlev wanted to change for Zhuravlyov it might cumbersome. I am from Russia originally and am pretty familiar with the transliteration rules used there when issuing passports. It has changed rather recently. --Atitarev (talk) 00:56, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I actually hadn't meant to remove the j in my earlier edit; sorry for that. —Michael Z. 2008-09-24 01:49 z 


 * It's OK. I'll put it back later. --Atitarev (talk) 02:06, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

> Thus, Leonid Brezhnev's surname (Леонид Брежнев) could be transliterated as "Brežnev", as it is spelled in a number of Slavic languages.

Actually, in Czech it would be “Brežněv” … but looking at Ě, it looks we might be the only one to use 'ě'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ceplm (talk • contribs) 10:55, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Zhe
Zhe has several different pronunciations, depending on the language it is used in. The common pronunciation is ; that sound does occur in English, see English phonology; "treasure" is pronounced with, see Wiktionary. The Russian pronunciation of Zhe,, does not occur in English. —Coroboy (talk) 00:51, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Origin of the letter
I got the idea for the possible origin of the letter ж myself. I did not read or hear it anywhere; I simply derived that possibility from the fact that Cyrillic ш is derived from the Hebrew ש.

"Zhe frog" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Zhe frog. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 2 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. –LaundryPizza<b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 12:50, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Potential grammar issue
In the History section, the sentence "It may be a ligature, formed from combining two "K" letters (one backward form) sharing common stem," the phrase $⟨common stem⟩$ is used, however, this does not sound right, as there should probably be an "a" there. Am I correct? Qwerty3521 -- Message me here 22:55, 21 May 2021 (UTC)


 * i mean the word <b style="color:#f07">Qwerty</b><b style="color:#f00">3521</b> -- Message me here 23:18, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * no one noticed this, I'll just fix it <b style="color:#f07">Qwerty</b><b style="color:#f00">3521</b> -- Message me here 16:01, 10 September 2021 (UTC)