Talk:Zheng He/Archive 1

Zheng He's Family's Business
i am looking for information on zheng he's family, and the trade empire they created and maintained during the ming-qing transition, and the role they played in governing taiwan before it was brought back under mainland rule by the qing. if anyone knows of a book or article about this topic, please post it below! thanks!

Zheng He and Sindbad
Isn't Zheng He too late for Sindbad? Ulysses and the Arab sailors are the sources of Sindbad.

Someone added the following:
 * "Zheng He's feats may have inspired the fictional literary stories of Sindbad in later times, and some conjectures have noted the similarity between the name Sindbad and Sanbao."

This cannot be accurate. Sinbad adventures were known to exist about the 10th century, and Zeng He is 4 or more centuries after that. So this cannot be the case. -- KB 21:34, 2004 Jun 11 (UTC)

Zheng He & Haijin Sea Ban
The big problem with this paragraph is that it completely ignores the fact that the ban on maritime commerce was temporary and largely lifted by the end of the Ming dynasty.

Also the late sentence is very controversial. It *was* the conventional wisdom in the 1950's and 1960's, but there are a number of authors (namely Kenneth Pommeranz "The Great Divergence" and "The World That Trade Created" and Joanna Wayley-Cohen "The Sextants of Beijing") who would argue that it is total nonsense, and I think that general Western opinion tends more toward that last statement being false than true. Certainly the "of course" is unwarranted.


 * Although private networks of Chinese traders continued to be active in Southeast Asia the governmental ban on ocean going shipping had an incredibly large impact on the future development of China. The most immediate effect was to move all such trading underground, and effectively make all those engaged in such activity into smugglers. From there many smugglers morphed into piracy. Although many of these so-called Waku (wokou) pirates were Japanese, one of the most notorious of the Waku named Wang Chih was from Anhuei province in China. Directly demonstrating the link between banned trade, smuggling and piracy Wang Chih was also one of the largest traders in East Asia, moving goods between Japan, China and Siam. By the middle of the 16th century pirate raids on coastal cities were so widespread that the Ming passed an edict moving millions of people off the coast to inland regions depopulating the coast line from Shandong to Guangdong to a depth of 60 miles. Even that did not deter the pirates who then raided further inland. In the 1550's, the pirate raids were particularly severe culminating in the 1555 raid on Nanjing more than 200 miles inland on the Yangzi river. The Ming having disbanded the navy were simply powerless to stop the attacks. Not until the end of the 16th century was the military reorganized in a fashion sufficient to reduce the frequency of attacks to a manageable level. The long run reaction by both the Ming and later the Qing to these events was to further control and limit the spread of trade and contact with foreigners, which of course was to directly lead to the economic and political crises of the 19th century.

Roadrunner 07:41, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Too much irrelevant material about trade
There is much irrelevant material about the theories of the decline of maritime commerce (and whether it even happened) on this page. This really has little to do with Zheng He.
 * In a way it is true, but the thing is - the decline in maritime commerce and the supposed imperial decree against it was one of the reasons why the dynasty ended his explorationsKennethtennyson 03:28, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

America
Jack:Did he ever go to america?

because no one says Z He actually got there!
While I don't disagree with this assertion, Zhou Man and Gavin Menezes are still in the category "Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact" and it's very inconsistent to place those two there and this not. Either put them all in or take them all out. --ColourBurst 21:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Hang Li Po
There appears to be some controversy about the true identity and status of Hang Li Po. Her surname certainly does not seem conducive to the theory that she was a daughter of the Emperor, and she apparently does not appear in any Chinese chronicle of the period. On the other hand, almost every detail of Zheng He's missions was diligently erased from the Chinese records by the anti-eunuch faction that followed this period. Anyone know anything about this issue? Adhib 16:57, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

As recorded in Malaysia history, during one of Zheng He's voyages to Malacca, he brought along Princess Hang Li po to be married to the sultan. It was also recorded that during that particular period, there were four very brave and famous Warriors namely, Hang Tuah, Hang Jebat, Hang Kasturi (I can only remember 3). Were there any relation with the Princess or were they sent together to protect the princess? The historical facts did not mentioned where they originated from. Like Zheng He, it was very much believed that they were muslims.

I believe that Zheng He should be described in more detail Albert Einsteins Pipe

Hang Li Po is actually a Malay Tale with no real evidence to support it... Official Archives found no princess with the name Hang Li Po or even Li Po... It was said that Zheng He actually helped founded Malacca and placed a puppet king... The port of Malacca was built by him to control the Malacca Straits... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Khchin (talk • contribs) 08:25, 27 November 2005


 * According to page Hang Li Po, she was the great grandaughter of the Chinese Emperor Yung Lo of the Ming Dynasty. Are you sure there is no evidence? What kind of "official archives" are you referring to? __earth 15:06, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Malacca was founded by Parameswara in early 1400 and Zheng He came to Malacca in 1456. How can Zheng He help founding Malacca... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.51.93.243 (talk) 14:14, 8 November 2006

Size of the Ships
According to the Guinness Book of World Record, the largest sailing ship ever built was France II, in 1911.

It measured 415 feet [146m] long and 56 feet [17m] wide. It had 5 masts, and it was of steel.

The question is: Do we possess the technology to build a 9 masts wooden ship that measures 400 feet by 160 feet?

Can we today manufacture such a wooden ship and make it seaworthy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.35.35.34 (talk) 09:11, 21 July 2005

Actually, Zheng He's larger treasure ships were up to 600 feet, longer than the France 2. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.16.18.76 (talk) 20:11, 20 August 2006
 * Actually, one of those ships has been rebuilt or is in the process of being rebuilt. There is a great web page with lots of Flash if I remember right, but I forgot the URL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.151.153.187 (talk) 18:02, 15 September 2005

The Treasure ship actual measurement was not known. The measurements found in the history book are not confirmed — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.156.6.54 (talk) 12:05, 5 November 2005

Go to this PBS's Nova http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sultan/explorers2.html

and http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/china.htm

Takima 17:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

There are no exact measurements for the ships

 * "Treasure ships", used by the commander of the fleet and his deputies (nine-masted, about 120 meters (400 ft) long and 50 m (160 ft) wide).

The above informations cannot be taken for real. Sometimes back, I watched a solid documentary by the Chinese experts. They said that the actual measurements of the "Treasure Ships" does not have a confirmation length todate. Please edit this article. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CommonHeroes (talk • contribs) 02:04, 24 November 2005

The comparison pic
That dinosaur vs. mammal pic does not reflect accurately the true proportions of the respective ships, even if we ignore for a moment that the size of Zheng He's treasure ships is largely speculation anyway. See For example, the Jan Adkins 1993 illustration below shows a mast comparable to the world record carbon fiber mast of Mirabella V, built in 2004. As it is wrong (it appeared in a veritable Sinocentric pamphlet) I take it out. Gun Powder Ma 23:42, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Size of the ships
The article treats the sizes as given facts and does not reflect at all the fact that all these numbers are pure specultion. In fact, by any measure we have, the size of the ships, particularly of the Treasures ships, must be blown out of proportion. See Largest wooden ships. Gun Powder Ma 00:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Bring back picture comparing Treasure ships with Santa Maria
Someone deleted the picture that compared the size of the treasure ship with later ships of Columbus. Bring it back please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IntranetUSA (talk • contribs) at 22:32, 20 January 2007

Eunuch
Why no mention in the article of when and why Zheng He became a eunuch?Benami 11:25, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * D'oh! Never mind... Benami 23:25, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Trade Mission to Japan in 1404
The Chinese wikipedia states that he led 100,000 man to Japan at 1404, and signed the Kango trade treaty with Ashikaga Yoshimitsu. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skyfiler (talk • contribs) 18:38, 17 January 2006

Zheng He map
I created a new subsection for this material as it takes up about half the total existing section ("Cultural echoes"). If people decide to keep it, they might like to rename it - I doubt that this is really known as the Zheng He map. PiCo

Zheng He's Mission was Tragic Failure to Stop Tamerlane
明朝的成祖, 和元朝的世祖, 清朝的圣祖有一个十分相似的地方: 承接了上几代建立大帝国的基础, 并雄心勃勃地向化外, 尤其是向西, 制订了扩张计划.

与北方大陆马上民族建立的元, 清两祖不同, 拥有强大航海力量的明成祖的西洋扩张计划, 完全没有达到预期目标.

穆斯林宦官郑和前后十几年的使命, 是以追捕废建文帝为借口, 对铁木尔蒙古帝国进行包抄为实的外交攻略.

郑和的外交访问, 除了在天方和伊朗几次短暂停留, 并没有接近铁木尔帝国的势力范围, 也并没有建立任何实际的地缘政治态势能与该帝国抗衡. 也就是说, 郑和的使命失去了目的性, 盲目地背负着毫无价值的"天朝威仪", 在"山海经"般的海域里进入了一种超现实的状态, 一种存在主义的悲哀.

几十年后, 哥伦布与达加马也在"辛巴达游记"一般的超现实海域中闯荡, 也盲目地背负着脱离现实的唐吉诃德精神和宗教狂热, 但他们的结局和郑和完全两样. 虽然达氏死如亡命之徒, 哥氏在半疯狂状态中死去, 虽然郑和能以帝国大员的身份在印度"死在岗位上", 前两位所带来的硕果是后者不可比拟的. 更重要的是, 两位欧洲船长在坚定的信念中超生, 而郑和只留下无限的遗憾.

因为欧洲的探险家和中国的宦官有着根本的不同: 前者是基督教君主授予全权的骑士, 航海的事业是他们个人渔利的一种"企业"; 又是带着狂热信念, 为信仰征服世界的基督徒. 命运就掌握在他们的手里. 他们面对的是乐观的海图. 即使是一张空白而漫无目的的海图, 他们都可以画出乐观的新世界: "西印度", "黄金国", "新西班牙"... 原始的处女地, 他们的十字架一碰就可以成为基督的新圣土... 强大的印第安帝国也可以顷刻被初生之犊打垮. 昨日的流氓痞子, 明天可以成为新土地的基督教骑士和领主. 君主的"授权"只是一个许可证, 他们真正的权力基础和资本, 是他们自己的事业, 是这些海上驰骋的城堡.

郑和, 相比之下, 是一个被去势的男人. 一个为异教皇帝奴役的穆斯林. 他的"命根"永远被掌握在紫禁城不可捉摸的政治游戏手中. 他的宗教信仰是敌国铁木尔的信仰, 他的祖籍就在铁木尔朝的布哈拉. 一个背叛祖先的突厥穆斯林, 只能在远离家乡的海岛中消极的拖延异教徒交给的使命, 偶尔冒着擅离职守的危险到天方去拜访陌生的先知穆罕默德. 他的权力基础, 完全就是那个手里握着他命根子的皇帝. 这人一去, 宦官也要陷入无比的绝望. 那张象"山海经"的海图, 对郑和来说是悲观的. 这是他为了避免同时背叛祖宗和主子而找到的一片荒芜的避难所. 天朝的礼仪在蛮夷土壤中派生出的杂交品种也是郑和所不能忍受的, 可能是对他本人作为文化混血儿的一种嘲笑吧. 他带去一船船的无价珍宝, 换来的是天朝大国不能置信, 不能欣赏的怪诞物产. 他虽带着精良的武器装备, 在山野酋长的领地里也要诚惶诚恐, 忍受"汉(明)孰与我大"之类的傲慢态度. 而明帝国对郑和使命的最终否定, 为这个悲剧画上句号.

郑和之后, 以明帝国为首的东亚儒家文化圈普遍实行了锁国政策, 基本上摧毁了几个世纪以来积聚的世界领先的航海实力.

Zheng He's missions from his Islamic viewpoint
Are there any sources for the information in this section? And can we rename that and the preceeding section? --- Hong Qi Gong 15:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

What are the sources for the following paragraph? "Zheng He realized he could not convert the Ming imperial court to Islam; therefore, on his seven voyages, he successfully relocated large numbers of Chinese Muslims to Malacca, Palembang, Surabaya and other places and converted the natives to Islam. Malacca became the center of Islamic learning and also a large international Islamic trade center of the southern seas. Zheng He, in fact, successfully achieved what he wanted, but not for Ming China." According to Dreyer (2006) nothing in the records reveals anything about Zheng He's personality. It would seem very speculative to talk about Zheng He's motives of spreading Islam. It is not even certain that he was a Muslim. He was born a Muslim and his father and grandfather were Muslims. However he was taken into the imperial court from age 10. The inscriptions that he has left suggest he held Buddhist beliefs. ---Cowrider 00:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Year of Death?
The intro paragraph states Zheng He's lifespan was "(1371–1433)", but in later paragraphs his year of death is stated as 1434:

"...Zheng He had already successfully established the foundations of the Hui religion Islam. After his death in 1434..."

"...In Malaysia today, many people believe it was admiral Zheng He (died 1434)..."

To make things even more confusing, he is listed under the "Deaths" section of the 1435 wiki, and this source also states his death as 1435.

So which year is correct? Rodan44 05:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

According to Dreyer (2006) there is no direct record of Zheng He's death. Zheng He disappears from the historical record after 1433. He probably died in 1433, during or shortly after his last voyage. Xu Yuhu argues that he died in 1435, using indirect evidence. Zheng He served as commandant of Nanjing and as eunuch Grand Director of Ceremonial. Both of these posts received new appointments in 1435. Xu Yuhu believes this is because these posts became vacant when Zheng He died. Dreyer argues that Zheng He was probably already dead by 1435, a more likely reason for the new appointments was that the new emperor, Zhu Qizhen, came to power in that year. Cowrider 04:00, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of Zheng He
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards,  Durova  18:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
what does it mean, "he sailed the Rebecca"? it's said twice, for Zheng He and Menzies. I do not understand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Voidvector (talk • contribs) 17:47, 1 November 2006
 * it was vandalism. --Voidvector 22:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Contradiction
Two sections slightly contradict themselves, and very clearly repeat themselves. -- unsigned comment by anonymous user at 217.235.229.17 on 08:12, 5 November 2006

Assessment comment
Substituted at 21:04, 4 May 2016 (UTC)