Talk:Zhitro

Dedication and invocation
To the energetic body of the human bodymind the 72,000 nadi of which are resonating with distinct and unique combinations of bija seed syllables which are deities, Thoughtform. These are the Peaceful and Wrathful deities of Zhitro Bardo practice by any other name. We are, indeed all Sentient Beings with their energetic system are metaphorically prayer flags, mani stones and prayer wheels whenever in any subtle or more tangible body. The Nada sounds through our energetic system. Outer, Inner and Secret mantra. B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 07:13, 19 December 2009 (UTC) PS: Nadi/Nada Sanskrit etymons. Crystal clear.

Cross-cultural correlates section
This right here: "A comparative analysis of Zhitro and Chöd would be informative." is pretty much the definition of OR. B9, if you can find references where this parallel has been discussed, please provide and include them, otherwise I think this last section needs to be removed. Thank you. Zero sharp (talk) 22:46, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. And will remove that sentence as no objections after a fortnight. In fact, that whole section on "cross-cultural correlates..." needs referencing or removing. Any objections to me going ahead and removing it? Dakinijones (talk) 18:31, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * As an Inclusionist within the Wikipedia auspice and champion of social inclusion (of all mindstreams within the Bhavachakra) generally the deleting of this information is unsound and hence I have reinstituted its presence. As a practitioner of Zhitro and a worker in the Bardo, I know without knowing. For some, these are the fruits (siddhi) of sadhana and experiential praxis. Find resources to help cite as your removal of this information though it may be well-intentioned hinders a sense of historicity and contextuality under pretext of conforming to Wikipedia guidelines and conceptual homogeneity.
 * B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 07:00, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I am sorry B9 hummingbird hovering but I created an editor account just to say the following. Firstly wild speculation on 'possibly' related topics would render any information base useless and literally insane. Secondly there are no valid or academic basis for your linking of Shitro to Hindu ancestor worship rituals and sadhanas, never mind the missing consensual references, or any reference. And if there are arguments, then all sides should be allowed which you obviously can not tolerate. Thirdly the practice has to do with now and nowness of Rigpa not the past. Fourthly it has to do with the inner deity basis of our body in various kayas with regards to it's chakras pranas and bindus and not our ancestors as all are seen as our mothers in previous lives. Fourthly as a fellow Shitro practitioner I inform you that the terma has it's protectors and any speculative proliferation with regards to terma is highly inadvisable. Fifthly as a fellow Dzogchen practitioner I advise that since Shtiro is part of that teaching, those mighty protectors enter the situation also. Sixth, mixing New Age zeal and such eclectic approach with regards to self opinionated proliferating linkage is highly warned against by Dzogchen masters as one of the worst evils one could indulge in. Lastly I really dislike your tone which has a hint of bullying about it which was the main reason I created an account to voice my protest. I hope you have enough broadmindedness and sense of democratic values to at least consider someone else's opinion in this case mine. ~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Occasionaled (talk • contribs) 05:30, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Nonduality; how would they be related if they were? Because they are. All Relative Truths are relatives: Pratityasamutpada. Therein, resides the teaching. I personally am a practitioner of Xitro and Chod but now do so effortlessly and such realizations are the fruit of sadhana. I am not the only lineage-holder within whom these two sadhana entwine, all such disciplines are not so distinct as rabid fervent and somewhat abrasive practitioners like yourself portray. Remember that the past, present and future entwine in Now. So Ancestors unifying with the Bardo deities that are inherent within our Body (a triune of Nirmana~Sambhoga~Dharma) and indeed the Peaceful and Wrathful Deities of Xitro are the energetic signatures the bija within the energetic bodymind a bodymind initially constitued by Red and White bindu from the Ancestors, form the Ancestors, from the Ancestors is salient. Where did the Father Lineage of Pacification come from? Didn't this unify with Xitro & Chod? You are ignorant of historicity. Xitro is from a terma, where does a Terma come from if not an Ancestor or preceptor? Where did the Nyingma lineage come from? A significant part came from China as well as India and Bon, all of which have Ancestor rites! The Funerary Tradition of the Great Perfection?
 * B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 10:14, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Funerary" Buddhism signifies the late Indian Buddhist tantric obsesssion wth death on multiple fronts: (1) the focus on charnel grounds and their corpses, (2) funerary rituals, (3) the signs of dying and death (particularly relics). (4) "intermediate process" theory (bar do, Sanskrit antarabhava), and (5) contemplative yogas bassed on death. In this process of transformation, we find a concern with relics blossoming in conjuction with an elaborate tantric synthesis revolving around death, vision, and the body in relationship to Buddhas.
 * Are there no Ancestors in the Charnel ground? Wasn't Xitro initially done in the Charnel ground? What about Sarira? Put Xitro in the context of world spiritual traditions and where does it reside?
 * B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 11:01, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi B9 hummingbird hovering,

I think if we ask the participants of this page who is abrasive they might come up with an alternative candidate. As to me being ignorant and your points. Nyingma Terma certainly do not come from your ancestors. And in the view of those Tibetan Buddhists from all four schools who practice them they come from Padmasambhava. Who did not have children nor parents! You are not providing any historical or academic reference. Furthermore in the view of Nyingma school masters you are proliferating your own ideas into not only the dharma but more seriously terma which involves destroying their effectiveness and samayas and protectors. The corruption of terma by out of control egos is a large area of study within Nyingma and Kagyu and is highly warned against as one of the worst things a sentient being can do. It would be acceptable to me if you provided references to books or journals or papers by scholars, secular or not, but you are merely indulging in personal fantasies and when people ask for citations or references you simply erase their edits with arrogance.

Chod too has nothing to do with ancestor worship or funerary rites as such. It is equally effective in places where there has not been a recent dead body or disposal for a long time. And not just charnel grounds or cemeteries which are currently in use. Furthermore it is not limited to those. Some of the most effective Chod power places as laid out in local guides by Chod masters have and never had anything to do with corpses. The tradition of Chod power places is a large area of expertise too. Theoretically too Chod is not to do with benefiting the spirits of ancestors as you misrepresent. That would mean Pretas of the deceased and we know Pretas are only one of many forms dead ancestors, specially of practitioners, can take. It is to do with generating various beings of the eight classes and subclasses, not just Pretas, and then offering oneself and ultimately one's ego, the only big problem in smasara we suffer from, to them. They are mainly the demonic classes. Relatively we hope to bring the benefit of dharma to them and pacify them which makes most of them run away unless the practitioner is egoistic himself. That is if he or she is successful to generate them with enough ferocity. Ultimately the aim in Chod is non-duality. There are also secret meanings. So Chod is far from what you try to misrepresent too.

This is the typical way western New-agers who are non-academic and not experts on the subject behave and abuse Tibetan Buddhism. It is not inter-dependent origination or non-duality. It is known as proliferation and in the case of terma as breaking it's samayas and corrupting it. Technically according to Wiki rules if you can not find references for your wild speculations, the edits of the people you undid in protest should also be restored. Any fake terton calls himself a poet and indulging in non-duality. But most of them are not foolish enough to justify it by calling it pratītyasamutpāda or dependent arising which means admitting the guilt of proliferating terma and corruption of it's samayas. I can go on forever debating but I see no point. The main point is I don't think anyone can stop your runaway conjecturing activity but let me tell you that it is extremely serious. You need to go to a great master and show all that you have spread in the name of dharma and tantra and terma and ask what to do. Good luck. Occasionaled (talk) 19:57, 23 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I invite you to peruse my editing history and await your heartfelt apology. B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 14:31, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi B9 hummingbird hovering,

I'll repost my reply to your paragraph in your talk page which shows it is you who should apologize to the posters in this page and the practicing readers who have teachers. Your post was:

B9 hummingbird hovering: "I truly feel sorry that you have misunderstood not only my intention but my work and what I have written. You have totally misunderstood and I realize that is because you do not wish to understand. You have specific ideas about Ancestors that I do not share. You say Padmasambhava did not have parents nor children well, frankly, there are sources that say that he did have children and parents of flesh and blood. You have very little knowledge which is apparent by how you communicate. I wish you well in your sadhana. You need teachers. I have had many and do no longer. 16:10, 25 April 2010 (UTC)"

Being one, I stated the belief of Nyingmas on Padma's parents. In fact it doesn't matter if he had parents or not or other alternatives which is well beyond you. Unlike you I know exactly what I'm talking about. You do not say who claims they know Padma's parents because you don't know. It is the Bons. You are also totally ignorant that a growing minority within Bon are also now saying he was lotus born but that is another whole area the details of which you have not heard. On him having children it is another whole story.

I did not state anything about ancestors and merely rejected your fantasies by our tradition and also simple linear logic. You do not need teachers any more because you are engaging in one of the greatest evils in Kaliyuga by destroying tantra and terma. Relatively you do not understand the seriousness of your situation. Ultimately you know exactly what is happening but it is masked from your consciousness and your case is much more complex. Messing with tantras by some beginner who claims he has gone beyond teachers is worse than currently being in hells for eons as any teacher would tell you.

Two large sets of points were put to you in my two posts. You did not address them in any way and in fact ignored nearly all of them.

I am removing your paragraph in the topic as two people complained that against Wiki rules you have inserted fantasies. Your reply was that as a practitioner your opinion and fantasy was proof enough and no reference to any academic or historical citation or even anyone else thinking so is required! Most of us have Shitro empowerment and practice it so even by your crazy anti-Wiki standards and non-academic approach, the majority should rule. I like to see you undo my edit and reinforce your ego when you know you are indulging your ego at the cost of damaging tantra and going up against Wiki rules by conjecturing wildly merely because you are a practitioner and not even acknowledging that we are too. This shows who is truly open to the charges in your last post. Your proliferating fantasies with no reference shows you are not even a bright enemy of tantra and terma and really not a problem except to yourself. The rest I leave for Wiki archives and you I leave to the mighty protectors of Shitro and Dzogchen as I feel you are headed for a much worse fate. I'll pray for you as eons are long periods. As I said, good luck. Occasionaled (talk) 23:56, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Section: "Cross-cultural correlates and possible antecedents" was removed because:

1- Despite many protestations the individual did not state any references or citations.

2- He stated that his fantasy speculation was valid because he practiced this tantra!

3- He ignored the point that the protesters are practitioners too even if that crazy and non-academic standard was to be taken seriously.

4- Majority of Tibetan Buddhist masters would dismiss his claims that at his level he is beyond the need for teachers as that basically amounts to declaring oneself a saint.

5- "Cross-cultural correlates and possible antecedents" and the flimsy unbalanced justifications would mean anyone could state any fantasy within a Wiki article just because one felt like doing so! No one with a moderately balanced mind would have claimed that.

"Cross-cultural correlates and possible antecedents" without references and justified on the basis of a person's mere feelings despite protests shows the user should be watched closely regarding his activities on various Wiki projects. Occasionaled (talk) 00:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Why don't you improve the article? I wrote it. All the cited entries are my inclusions. I created the article. It would not be evident if it wasn't for me. You haven't even perused my editing history. I have commented further on my talkpage. I have reverted your edits to this page because I am an Inclusionist and I hold the preservation of information is to be upheld. If you are in dispute, I recommend you find citations and qualitatively improve the article. In addition, why don't you come and join a discussion on Mipham's Speech of Delight, a commentary on Shantarakshita's Madhyamakalamkara on Facebook. I will demonstrate my standard of scholarship. There is barely an article on the Three Turnings of the Buddhadharma, including Sutrayana, Vajrayana, Nyingma, Zen and Dzogchen (both Nyingma and Bon) upon Wikipedia which does not bare my hard work in citations and improvement. You are patently ill-informed. In the Buddhadharma, faith as different to belief, is required: indeed deemed mandatory. You talk about belief. I am beyond belief. Just as Buddhahood through effort is uncaused. B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 07:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Following paragraph by 'B9 hummingbird hovering' was removed:

"Cross-cultural correlates and possible antecedents: In the Hindu religion, the term śraddhā denotes the ritual that one performs to pay homage to one’s deceased ancestors (Pitri), and especially to one’s deceased parents, either on the anniversary of their death or during the dark fortnight called Pitri Paksha (which usually falls in September or October). Though Zhitro is not ancestor worship per se it is a spiritual practice that involves former relatives, preceptors and ancestors. A comparative analysis of Zhitro,  Shraddha, Chöd and Sutric Buddhist charnel ground meditations would be informative."

This was due to various reasons stated in the talk page and mainly his refusal to provide any references or citations for his wild speculative claims apart from his feelings as a tantric who has gone beyond the need for teachers! And dismissing the protests of other tantrics of the same practice regarding his breaking of Wiki rules as well as dismissal of basic academic standards! Any further editing war by 'B9 hummingbird hovering' will be taken to the admins noticeboard for final judgment and secondly to archive the case and put him on a watch-list and monitor his activities on various Wiki projects. Occasionaled (talk) 11:19, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Why don't you stop all your bluster and provide citations? You are not assisting, just denigrating my hard work. Once again, I created this article and all the citations are my inclusions. Frankly, my guru resides in my heartmind which is the guru in secret aspect. I no longer require recourse to tarry with an outer guru. Though I may at times seek clarification on specific matters of doctrine. But doctrine is not required for awakening. But why I choose to no longer have teachers is none of your business. The truth of the matter is I have had many and my experience of Dharma charts 30 years of exploration. You are a guruphile and I am sure, have no idea where true knowledge resides. Follow the trappings of religiosity and there you will be trapped. In our conversation you have provided no sources, unlike myself. You have contributed precious nothing to Wikipedia nor to this article. You are offensive and rude. I am tired of your insults. I have broken no samaya. My guru is proud of me. I am his heart son. B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 15:02, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The "possible correlates" is speculative and it is entirely original research. There are ancestors practices throughout Asia. The section should not be there, I'm taking it out.Sylvain1972 (talk) 16:32, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Complaint lodged on the admin noticeboard and awaiting their judgment on the issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Wiki_Cult_Task-force_and_User:B9_hummingbird_hovering_Breaking_Basic_Academic_and_Wiki_Rules Occasionaled (talk) 17:32, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Please see my talk page on how many editors also verified how B9 hummingbird hovering is a known problem editor with their comments on the Admin Notice-Board. Occasionaled (talk) 07:28, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * a known problem what misrepresentation, take note of the number of discreet articles i have edited, the number of edits and do some reseach and be aware of the number of citations on average I add in a week and u have the gall to call me a "problem editor". that is unfounded. could u please name ten articles and ten citations u have provided? B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 03:47, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Another lie. See the admin board for proof of your latest falsehood as it was others who called you a "problem editor". See my talk page for more. Take it easy. Occasionaled (talk) 14:48, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

I see that, on 2 June 2010, B9 hummingbird hovering was indefinitely (permanently?) blocked. Watch out though - such beings often take rebirth on Wikipedia in some other guise after some time in the bardo. Chris Fynn (talk) 16:14, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Opening section
I'm going to change around things in the lead paragrraph a little as Karma Lingpa's Zhitro (aka Karling Zhitro) is only one of several Zhitro terma revalations in Tibetan. The so-called "Tibetan Book of the Dead" or Liberation on Hearing is also only one, fairly small, section of the Karling Zhitro which, in it's most extensive form, fills two large Tibetan volumes (most of which is found in Gyurme Dorje's translation published by Penguin Viking. There are several other Zhitro traditions including those revealed by Jatson Nyingpo (which is just as well known in Tibet), and Pema Lingpa (Kunzang Gongdu Zhitro) which is used in Bhutan. There are also Zhitro texts in the Bön tradition. Henk Blezer's PhD thesis "Kar gling khro, A Tantric Buddhist Concept (published in CNWS publications, Vol.56, Leiden 1997) and Bryan Cuevas' study The Hidden History of the Tibetan Book of the Dead should be important sources for this article - and anyone who wants to improve this article should read those (along with Gyurme Dorje's tanslation of the complete Tibetan Book of the Dead). It is also important to understand that all the Zhitro traaditons really go back to the Guhyatgharbha Tantra - and much further than that to the Abhidharma (the wrathful and peaceful dieties are to be understood as the purified forms of the various dharmas listed in the Abhidharma tradition). In one way, the Zhitro tradition is kind of a tantric / visual Abhidharma. Interestingly in some Theravada coutries the texts of the Abhidharma are read out following a person's death in much the same ay as the Zhitro texts are read out in Tibet. Anyway I only have time to fix the opening sentances a bit. Hopefully someone else can take up the task of improving the article. Chris Fynn (talk) 17:22, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

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