Talk:Zhou Tong (archer)/Archive 1

Chinese Characters?
I am afraid that I don't know the proper chinese characters for his name. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 03:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC))
 * I just found them (周侗). (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 09:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC))

Any Suggestions?
I realize the section about Zhou Tong's resignation is a little too BIG! But all of the information details the rise of Buddhism, the creation of "New Sect" Buddhism (Ch'an/Zen), the building and dawn of Shaolin, and its downfall under Taoist Emperors, wealthy laymen, and Neo-Confucian Officals, which leads up to Zhou Tong's resignation. If anyone has any suggestions on shrinking this part of the page, please write in. Maybe a separate page should be made and linked to this one detailing the rise and fall of Buddhism in China. I would do it myself, but I'm just too lazy. If someone does do it, however, please make sure all of your info is sound. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 20:26, 6 July 2006 (UTC))
 * I went a head and cleaned up the section. It is now less than half the size, but it still conveys the important stuff. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 10:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC))

Chen Guang?
Most of my info about Zhou Tong comes from Yue Fei's biography. However, I have read a seperate history where Yue Fei actually learned spearplay from a master Chen Guang and only learned Archery from Zhou Tong. This same history even states that Yue Fei's father didn't drown in the Yellow River flood, but years later. If anyone has more information on this, please share. This is the first I have heard of this. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 10:16, 8 July 2006 (UTC))
 * According to a Xingyi boxing website, Yue Fei, learned Xingyi boxing from a "wandering Taoist...whom had no traceable name". Could this nameless Taoist be Chen Guang? Better still, Yue Fei's "semi-historical" biography states the "Hidden Immortal" Chen Tuan (871-989) disguised himself as a "Taoist Priest" and forewarned Yue Fei's parents of the immminent Yellow River Flood. Could this Chen Guang be Chen Tuan? Maybe the mythos became accepted as actual fact and over the years, the two got mixed up as separate persons. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 23:23, 11 July 2006 (UTC))
 * Yesturday night, I had a chinese friend do some research on the Chinese net and this is what he found, "曾求师于本地箭师周侗和枪手陈广([Yue Fei] was a student under arrow master zhoutong and spear master chen guang)". THAT IS IT! Plus, he was hired by Yue Fei's maternal grandfather Yao Daweng (姚大翁) to teach the young boy spear skills (Thanks to General Zhaoyun of the "Chinese History Forum" for this info). Apparently, this man's life has been lost to history. The only reason we still know his name is because of his association with young Yue Fei. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC))

Video link does work, but is slow
The video link file, showing the techniques of Shaolin Zhou Quan Tui, does work, but it is slow. The file comes from a French website. Sometimes it works right away and other times after a few minutes. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:33, 12 July 2006 (UTC))
 * I have deleted the video link in the paragraph about Shaolin Zhou Quan Tui because it was actually showing a mixture of Tongbei arm technqiues with Chuojiao leg techniques. I also deleted it because I added an actual Chuojiao video from China in the Chuojiao section under boxing. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 19:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC))

Boxing
As I understand it, Zhou Tong was also a master of Fanziquan among other things and the material he taught was mostly Chuojiao and Fanziquan. (The two form a pair in much the same way that Xingyiquan/Baguazhang and Bajiquan/Piguazhang do.) I'm not familiar with elephant boxing, least of all in the context of Zhou Tong and Yue Fei. JFD 21:41, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I used some of the material in "Boxing" to create an article for Chuojiao. This is a Wikipedia entry we're writing here, not a thesis, so I retained only that material most relevant to Zhou Tong. For example, if a reader wants to how to write the old name for Fanziquan in Chinese, they can click on the Fanziquan page. That's the beauty of hypertext. JFD 20:17, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. Thanks for making the changes. I sometimes forget that this page is linked to countless others. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 21:09, 15 July 2006 (UTC))

Shaolin Abbot "Fu Yu" NOT "Fu Ju"
Every martial arts buff knows about Shaolin Abbot Fu Ju's assembly of the 18 Kung Fu masters. This supposedly happened in the early years of the Northern Song Dynasty (960-1127). Here is a list of the masters and their skills (I had to use a translator on the page since it was in Chinese, so some of the words don't read well):


 * 1.In the beginning there was the" Long-range Boxing "(Chang Quan) style of Emperor Tai Zu.
 * 2. "Through the Back" (Tongbei) boxing of Master Han Tong is considered parental.
 * 3.Hand technique "as Rap Around and Seal" (Chan Feng) of Master Zhang 427-636 is especially profound.
 * 4. "Close-range Washington" (Duanda) of Master Ma Ji boxing is the most remarkable.
 * 5.It is impossible to come close to characterizing Mr. Huang You who knows the "Close Range Hand Techniques" (Kao Shou).
 * 6.The technique "Blocking Hands and portion Trough Fist" (Keshou Tongquan) of Master Jin Xiang.
 * 7.The hand techniques of "Hooking, Scooping and Grabbing Hands" (Gou Lou Cai Shou) of Master Liu Xing.
 * 8.The "Methods of Sticking, Grabbing, and Falling" (Zhanna Diefa) of Master Yan Qing.
 * 9.The "Short Boxing" (Duan Quan) of Master Wen Mr. Yuan is the most extraordinary.
 * 10.The style "Monkey Boxing" (Hou Quan) of Master Sun Heng is also flourishing.
 * 11.The "Cotton Fist" (Mien Quan) techniques of Master Mien Shen is lightning fast.
 * 12.The "Throwing-Grabbing and a Hard Crashing" (Shuailue Yingbeng) techniques by Master Huai De.
 * 13.The technique of "Ducking, Leaking and Passing through the Ears" (Gunlou Guaner) of Master Tan Fang.
 * 14.The strongest leg kicking technique is the "Mandarin ducks" (Yuanyang Jiao) credit of Master Lin Chong.
 * 15.The "Seven Postures of Continuous Fist Washington" (Qishi Lianquan) techniques by Master Meng Su.
 * 16. "Methodology and Grabbing Hand" (Kunlu Zhenru) techniques of Master Yang Gun attack instantly.
 * 17.The techniques of "Explosive Washington into the Hollow Parts of the Body" (Woli Paochui) by Master Cui Lian.
 * 18. "Praying Mantis" (Tanglang) boxing of Master Wang Lang absorbed and equalized all previous techniques."

Well, I'm sorry to say, the above information is false! The biggest reason I say this is that the "historical" "FU YU" NOT "Fu Ju" (a legendary persona of Fu Yu) lived from 1203-1275. So if the assembly took place in C. 970, the date is off by OVER 260 years or more. The second thing that tipped me off was #14 on the list—“Mandarin Ducks”. Zhou Tong was also a master of Mandarin Duck Leg. One martial arts webpage suggests Zhou Tong was the “Second Lineage” holder of Mandarin Duck, since he learned the style directly from its creator, Deng Liang. If this "Master Lin Chong" was present at the assembly, then the Mandarin Duck style existed some 100 years before it should have. Again, another reason, some people believe that #18, Northern Praying Mantis, was created during the Ming Dynasty. I won’t go into the history of the Mantis style any further since its origins usually spawn heated debates! Last of all, the list itself was, “recorded on the sixteenth day of the third month of the spring of 1794", which is roughly Tuesday, April 15, 1794 on the Gregorian Calendar. It is not reliable because: 1) it was written in a "Praying Mantis Manual" and 2) It wasn't written close enough to the era in mention. The reason I say the "boxing manual" isn't reliable is because its not NPOV. If this legendary assembly really took place, it would have had to been during the closing years of the Sourthern Song or early years of the Yuan Dynasties. Some of you may be wondering why I posted this. Well, it is pertinent to study other Shaolin abbots so as to find Zhou Tong’s place and time in Shaolin’s hierarchy.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 19:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC))


 * If this "Master Lin Chong" was present at the assembly, then the Mandarin Duck style existed some 100 years before it should have.


 * This "Master Lin Chong" is supposed to be the Lin Chong and Mandarin Duck is supposed to be the style he learned from Zhou Tong. Moreover, that Master Yan Qing (#8)? Is supposed to be the adopted son of Lu Junyi.


 * So yeah, definitely not early Northern Song Dynasty. --JFD 19:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Yu Cheng Hui AS Zhou Tong...
Here are some great stories about Yu Cheng Hui's sword prowess and "Hardheadedness"


 * There was once when Wu Jing and Yu Cheng-Hui was doing an action scene, and as they fought, Wu Jing remembered where Yu Cheng-Hui's next move was supposed to be, but suddenly there was a swish, and Yu Cheng-Hui was swinging his sabre towards Wu Jing's neck with alarmingly alacrity and ferocity. Without affording any time to reflect, Wu Jing immediately lowered his head, titled his body and parried off the blow with his sword, and simultaneously yelled, "Stop! Stop! Not correct! Not Correct!"


 * And the director also screamed, "Cut!" at once.


 * Yu Cheng-Hui stopped and asked, "What's wrong?"


 * "Master Yu, you've made the wrong move." Wu Jing calmed himself and replied.


 * Yu Cheng-Hui, not understanding any rhyme or reason, proclaimed, "I did not do anything wrong."


 * "You should wield your sabre in this way," explained Wu Jing kindly.


 * "No, there was a weak spot in your stance over there," answered Yu Cheng-Hui, not feeling anything out of place about his strokes.

Again...


 * More than a decade ago, there were four national wushu champions who worked together with Yu Cheng-Hui in Jet Li's Martial Arts of Shaolin. Yu Cheng-Hui, with a just a wooden sword, injured the four of them. Firstly, Yu Cheng-Hui's sword broke Ji Chun-Hua's nose bridge and if it were to go any deeper, he would be blind. Next was a deep slash in a person's arm, right to the bone.


 * Following that, his sword went through another's calf. In the fourth case, his sword greeted Wu Jing's fellow senior brother. His fellow senior brother felt there was a flash of white light approaching, and before he could lift his sword to block, his head was already struck. This is no different from the scenes portrayed in wuxia novel, and as Wu Jing narrated, we felt ourselves experiencing some stunning moments in the career of the pugilists.

And again ...


 * Curiously, Xu Diang Dong, who acted as Dong Han-Cheng, the Eight Trigram Palm expert in Master of Taichi, had some fights against Jet Li but had never had the chance to spar against Yu Cheng-Hui, was doubtful of Wu Jing's words, "You have been praising how great and lethal Master Yu is in his swordplay, but I beg to differ."


 * "You think his skill is of no significance? Okay, I shall let you do the fighting in this scene." Wu Jing retorted.


 * Xu Xiang-Dong was so full of confident as he picked up the gauntlet. However, after the fight, Xu Xiang-Dong, without any more strident honour and pride, panted like a deflated balloon, "Impossible!" [From the set of Seven Swords the "Movie"]

Once more...


 * "A pity you were a day late. I have never witnessed such an exciting and intricate swordplay in all my years of filmmaking," director Clarence Fok told the reporters who were visiting the set as additional shoot was being carried out in Daxing. "Yesterday, we did a major battle between Fu Qing Zhu and Manchu officer Niu Gu Lu. Both two actors Yu Cheng Hui and Sun Jian Kui are masters of sword, the two fought from 8pm yesterday to 3 am, breaking 15 prop swords in between." [On the set of Seven Swords the "TV Show" (a.k.a. "Seven Swords of Mt. Tian")]

This mean old bird would be perfect to play Zhou Tong!!!

WP:MilHist Assessment
I certainly could not claim that this article is lacking for length or detail; it even includes Zhou's abbot lineage, and is not lacking for pictures either. Could use a little clean-up grammatically, though. After a little clean-up, I'd love to see this nommed for Good Article status. LordAmeth 01:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've written 99% of this article, so it does my heart good to hear that it is "semi-Good Article Status" material. Please tell me what the grammatical errors are. I'm trying to learn chinese. I guess I should master english before I move on to other languages.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 16:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC))
 * I've fixed the minor grammatical issues I first noticed. The martial arts section, however, I think still lacks some clarity, and could afford to be written more scholastically. Stylistically, it just needs some rearranging, and some further explanation. Without clicking on any links, it is not at all clear from your text here what Taoist sexual practices, qigong or neigong are, and it obscures the meaning of that entire section. Also, there are just some other minor things like the reference to "leg skills", which I'd imagine refers to skills of foot movements, kicks, or the like; 'leg skills' could be better phrased. Also, martial arts are not people, and should not be referred to with terms like "whose". Instead of "Elephant Boxing ... whose seizing, locking, and pressure point strike techniques...", write "Elephant Boxing... the seizing, locking, and pressure point techniques of which..." Anyway, I apologize to be so critical, as I am likely no older or more formally educated than yourself. But I do hope to see this article (and all of our work) reach higher and higher standards. Good luck! LordAmeth 22:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

626
What's the source on that burning of the Shaolin Monastery in 626 CE? JFD 07:53, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * In the article I wrote "During the early Tang Dynasty, after 626..." It happend after the 13 warrior-monks helped establish Li Shimin (r. 626-649) on the throne. Here, read this:


 * "During the last period of the Sui dynasty (605-617 AD), the empire collapsed and Shaolin lost its government support. The T'ang dynasty (from 618-907 AD) came into being after Li Shih-Min (Emperor T'ai Tzu) and 6000 loyal troops of peasants took over the capital. The start of the new empire saw much turmoil as robbers and rivals to the throne pillaged the countryside and temples. They made no distinction between the clergy and laity. Shaolin was attacked by mountain brigands. The monks fought them off skillfully and valiantly, but this angered the brigands so much that they put the monastery, pagoda, and cloisters to flame. All the buildings along the cloisters went up in flames. Only the Sacred Pagoda remained intact, where the monks maintained their ground. Thus, the first burning of the Shaolin Temple."


 * Hopefully this helps. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 09:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC))

Nooo...no no no no no. That "mountain brigand attack" took place around 610. It's recorded on the Shaolin Monastery Stele of 728. Here, download this: On page 5, under Text 1: Pei Cui's Shaolin-Monastery History:"Pei alludes to two instances in which Shaolin monks resorted to arms: the first, in the last years of the Sui dynasty, when their monastery was attacked by bandits; the second, approximately a decade later, when they participated in Li Shimin's war against Wang Shichong:"During the last years of the Daye 大業 reign period (605–616) the empire disintegrated. Bands of robbers plundered the population, clergy and laity alike. This monastery (that is, Shaolin) was pillaged by roving bandits. The monks resisted them, whereupon the bandits set fire and burned the stūpas and courtyard. Within an instant all the buildings in the court perished in the flames. Only the Numinous Stūpa (Lingta 靈塔) remained, visible afar, as lofty as ever.Full disclosure: I know Salvatore Canzonieri. In fact Sal's the guy who referred me to the teacher I've been with for...coming up on ten years now. However, if I'm being frank, a marked improvement in the quality and detail of his articles takes place at the cusp of '95/'96. Not to embarrass him but, in the article you link to, which is from a 1995 issue of Wushu KungFu QiGong, he doesn't realize that "Yueh Fei" and "Ouk Fay" are the Mandarin and Cantonese pronunciations, respectively, of the same name. And Li Shimin's reign name in Wade-Giles should be T'ai-tsung, not T'ai-tsu (who is an entirely different emperor associated with Chinese martial arts).

To be fair to my friend, his familiarity with the Chinese language did improve with time and—I'm pretty sure it was in '96—he got a hold of two sources: the Shaolin Encyclopedia and Kang Gewu's Spring and Autumn of Chinese Martial Arts, which was only published in English for the first time in '95. You can see a marked difference in the quality and detail of his articles from '96 onward. Before, his work is pretty much about synthesizing martial arts oral history into a single grand narrative, but the only sources accessible to him were in English, which means that he had to deal with unfamiliar transliterations in both Mandarin and Cantonese and that his work then was skewed towards the styles practiced by the Cantonese immigrants who predominated the Chinese-American diaspora until the '90s.

The Tang Dynasty was proclaimed in 618, but it's not a fait accompli until 621, when Li Shimin captures Wang Shichong's capital at Luoyang with a little help from Shaolin. JFD 12:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the lesson. I am very knowledgable about the Tang and Song dynasties so I should have guessed that. I knew that it wasn't if-so-facto until that time. (This is kind of like Emperor Gaozong, who was crowned in 1127 But wasn't actually in control of southern China until the late 1130's. He spent his first two years on the run and the next two or three at sea) That is why I assumed the article was correct. My bad.


 * One question for you. Where did you get the year 610? The article says "During the last years...(605-616)..." Did you just round it to a nice clean number for reference? It seems like it would have happened in 614 or 615. The Sui Dynasty article says the Daye (大業) reign era was from 605-617. So it could have happened in 616 or 617, the same year as the "Tang Revolt".(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC))

I got the figure of 610 from a different article by Meir Shahar."The earliest evidence of Shaolin participation in military affairs dates from the Tang period. Several stele inscriptions, which are still extant at the monastery, attest that on two occasions Shaolin monks engaged in fighting: in the final years of the Sui Dynasty (around 610), they warded off an attack by bandits, and, in the spring of 621, they participated in the campaign of the future Tang emperor, Li Shimin, against another contender for the throne of the defunct Sui, Wang Shichong. []" JFD 21:08, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * This sounds interesting. I'll have to purchase this journal as reference material. I've turned to scholarly journals in the past to the find the info that I need. The last one I bought was the Journal of Women's History as it had a large article in it about the various capital punishments of woman in edo period japan. It ranged from penal tattooing to imprisonment in the Yoshiwara to immolation to full-fledged exile. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 22:53, 25 August 2006 (UTC))

That article is actually available free on the web here, but in Portuguese translation. (Sorry *shrug*) You might be interested to know that Shahar has written a book called The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion and the Chinese Martial Arts that's supposed to be published by the University of Hawai'i Press next year. Once that's available, I have little doubt that it's going to be far and away the most scholarly English-language source available on the Chinese martial arts. JFD 01:28, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Fact or Fiction?
I just recently made changes to the page to show a balance between the Historical and Fictional aspects of Zhou Tong's life. With the help of more superior amateur historians than myself, I was able to find passages from various Yue fei articles that showed Zhou Tong only taught the boy archery. No martial arts are mentioned. How the connection with Chuojiao, Fanzi, and Elephant boxing was made is beyond me. I have found that many martial arts were attributed to legendary people to give them more historical weight. I, however, don't doubt the validity of the connection though. I just can't see how all of these arts were connected with this man without some of them being real. I just need to do more research into original Chinese sources. Don't worry, I cited all of my changes so it wouldn't seem like all of it were my own personal findings.

Again, I would like to split the page up into "Fact" and "Fiction" but it seems there is a lot more fictional material available about him.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 00:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC))

HUGE CHANGES: DELETIONS & AN ENTIRE PAGE MOVE!!!
I moved the page from "Zhou Tong (Shaolin Abbot)" to "Zhou Tong (Shaolin Monk)" because I've only been able to find one source that states he was an "Abbot". The other 99% of the sources say he's just a monk. Also, I deleted about a 3rd of the page because I couldn't back up the "Resignation from Shaolin" section's info with citations. I hate to admit that it was from my own research, but I tried my hardest to connect the info to Zhou Tong with published material. Plus, I've been spending a lot of time on the China History Forum and they have helped me to uncover some of the "Falsities" floating around the net about Zhou Tong. I have no doubt that my information was correct since "Buddhist Persecutions" and "Neo-Confucians" almost succeeded in smothering "Monastic Buddhism" (not the entirety of Chinese Buddhism), but I couldn't link it DIRECTLY to Zhou Tong. If you want the info back, find sources that point back to Zhou Tong. I HIGHLY doubt you will find any.

Also, I’ve learned the differences between the various Yue Fei biographies. Granted most of them are fiction (which many take as fact), but I have been able to derive some historical info from them. One fictional biography in particular states Zhou Tong was Yue Fei’s adopted father. Chinese records do not point to this. I made a note of this in the article.

The page is still not everything that it could be, but its still the most comprehensive "English" source on Zhou Tong I've ever seen. If you guys see something that is lacking a citation, PLEASE let me know. However, be careful because a lot of my sources are already posted at the bottom. Read through these sources before you give me suggestions. Thanks.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 06:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC))

Weeding
I've recently gone through the page and weeded out several paragraphs that have completely "un-provable" material. For instance, I removed the info for the Shaolin Zhou Quan Tui (Shaolin Zhou Boxing Leg) because, other than the one French website, I have not been able to find it anywhere else. I also removed the info about him being an abbot of Shaolin. I'd say that 99% of the fictional information about him on the net will say he's just a Shaolin monk. I have not been able to find actual historical evidence he was a monk or abbot of Shaolin. Plus, I've tried to rely more on books or internet sites presenting the books that deal with this history. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 02:39, 20 October 2006 (UTC))

Shaolin Monk or Archer?
All legendary material says Zhou Tong was a Shaolin monk. All historical material says he was just an archer. Why do I keep the page “Zhou Tong (Shaolin Monk)”? Well it’s because the legend of him being a Shaolin Monk is so widespread that people will only search for him as such. If I moved the page to “Zhou Tong (Archer)” then no one would stop to read the page since they are looking for the monk of the same name, despite the fact they are one and the same.

He is usually confused with the Zhou Tong from the Water Margin. But these are two totally different people. And because 3 of the 108 Water Margin Bandits are considered, according to legend, to be Zhou Tong’s students, this makes the division between these similarly named people nonexistent in the eyes of an uninitiated person. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 20:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC))

Page name
Is it really necessary to have the long disambig name "(Shaolin monk)"? Seems much simpler and more reliable to have the disambig name be "(monk)". Not all biographical details should go into the title... --Gwern (contribs) 19:45 15 November 2006 (GMT)


 * That's not a bad idea. I'll go ahead and make the change. Thanks. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 19:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC))

Separation of Notes and References
I just separated the notes and references section. I will add parenthesis containing the citation where needed later. However, this is beginning to feel like a hefty task as I need to change the format on all of my reference books and then cite as said. I may just switch back to the old embedded citations, with a mixed notes and reference section. I know they are supposed to be separate, but it's not worth this much trouble. (Ghostexorcist 04:55, 22 December 2006 (UTC))


 * I switched it back the other day. Too much trouble. (Ghostexorcist 22:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC))

Description
I noticed that I described Zhou Tong's appearance in Yue Fei's "historical" biography, but I failed to describe his in the "fictional" one. I am currently writing a brief paragraph that fleshes his character out. I will also refer to it in the Shaolin and Military sections. Yue Fei's fictional biography only paints Zhou Tong as a former military man and NOT a Shaolin monk.(Ghostexorcist 22:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC))