Talk:Zia people (New Mexico)/Archive 1

was a stub

 * This article Zia (New Mexico) was a stub and I pretty much wrote it and expanded it today. What do you think? Do you think it surpasses the "stub" quality? I placed a new wikiproject new mexico template to get the page a different rating Schnitzel MannGreek . 13:54, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

To do to improve
I see there is an article about the Zia Pueblo already. Becareful in developing this article so that it is clear when you're speaking about the larger Pueblo peoples (with links to there), opposed to speaking about the smaller grouping, the Zia Pueblo people (found within this article). Also, if you're speaking about the land-base of the community and the population within it, be sure to instead go to the Zia Pueblo article. If neither this or the Zia Pueblo articles really amount to much, our next step may be to merge the two articles together, let it develop as a larger article and then sometime in the future, re-split the articles to the current two (or some other logical division). Otherwise, be sure to provide references, links, etc. And make sure you have inline citations. CJLippert 22:39, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This article Zia (New Mexico) was a stub and I pretty much wrote it and expanded it today. What do you think? Do you think it surpasses the "stub" quality? Schnitzel MannGreek . 23:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say its between Start and C, leaning slightly towards the C. Spongefrog,   (talk to me, or else)  18:53, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've changed my mind, I think it's a solid C. But I'm hesitant to assess it as I've only made 2 minor edits to it. Is there nothing at the wikiprojects that will review it? Spongefrog,   (talk to me, or else)  20:14, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That's a good thing. Assessing articles to which you have made only minor (spelling, punctuation, etc.) edits is fine. Whereas assessing articles that you have done extensive work on is quite frowned upon. - t'shaél chat 20:30, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, good. Perhaps I will. After this edit. It's not quite as good as a B, I wouldn't think, I'll give it a C for now. Spongefrog,   (talk to me, or else)  20:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait a minute. I'm not a member of any of those Wikiprojects. Damn. Does this matter? I expect it does. Meeaaooww. Spongefrog,   (talk to me, or else)  20:38, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * So join one. ;) - t'shaél chat 20:44, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Would I be allowed to? This is probably the only article I'll ever contribute to on their project. Unless they have any "passed away"s in their articles. Me (and sometimes my sidekick Scribbles) are replacing every "passed away" on WP with a "died". I'm getting distracted here so I'll stop. Spongefrog,   (talk to me, or else)  20:47, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

←I see no reason why you wouldn't be allowed to join. Plus, like you said, it'll give you a whole WikiProject to find "passed away"'s to replace with "died". :) - t'shaél chat 20:49, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * OK. Spongefrog,   (talk to me, or else)  20:50, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm glad you guys are helping shape this page. If you were to give it a "C' that would be good. I is too detailed for stub, and I worked hard making sure it had detail and thourough info Schnitzel MannGreek . 20:56, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I joined the New Mexico project (I'm below you, SchnitzelMann), and I rated it to C. I think its almost a B. Spongefrog,   (talk to me, or else)  21:01, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * tHANKS SPONGEFROG;)I'm going to add more so this article can go on DYK. I need about 600 more characters Schnitzel MannGreek . 21:03, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Good, good. Spongefrog,   (talk to me, or else)  21:11, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the work;)I got the article to DYK. I got accepted! Schnitzel MannGreek . 02:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Zia (novel
Split off Zia (novel) from Zia the New Mexico tribe. Hope that's OK. I will do a disambig page, if you'd prefer? Joaquin Murietta 23:16, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Illustrations for Zia
I removed a photo of Hispanic people remudding an adobe wall in Chamisal, NM -- not from Zia, and doesn't show Zia people.

There's an old JW Fewkes plate of kachina dolls from northern Arizona, probably Hopi. I don't believe the Zias have ever made kachina dolls, so this should also be removed.

The brick kiln photo is from Pima County, Arizona. Zias didn't make burnt adobe bricks, so this should also be cut.

In general, generic images such as these should be avoided. I have written a Flickr photographer for permission to use her photo of Zia pottery, and will post that if she agrees. There should be some PD photos around for old Zia Pueblo.

--Pete Tillman (talk) 22:18, 5 July 2009 (UTC) (Taos, NM)


 * Actually, the Zia do make kachinas. I've met some before. You were right about the adobe picture however. And the one with an adobe oven, Zia did use some similar to those. That's how they made their pottery. What else do you think they used? Schnitzel MannGreek . 23:08, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You'll need a cite for Zia kachinas -- the cite you have is just for Hopi & Zuni. I've never seen any, and I live nearby.


 * Traditional Pueblo pottery is fired in the open air, usually using cow dung for fuel. Some contemporary potters use modern, factory-made gas or electric kilns. Nobody uses a brick kiln.


 * The article is a bit of a mess at present, with a lot of half-truths mixed in. I'll try to sort it out, as time permits. In the meanwhile, please do some basic research at the library. There's a newish book on Zia pottery (from a recent exhibit) that has background info on the Zia people. Best regards, Pete Tillman (talk) 00:35, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You were right about the adobe oven so I deleted it. I believe the rest of my information is accurate except for the kachina section. While it is originally from the western Pueblo society like the Zuni or the Hopi, the influence of the kachina has spread to include communities like the Zia. I actually saw a zia pot on this website witha kachina. while not originally zia, they are related to the group in a way. Other than the kachina debate, what else is inaccurate. I checked to make sure the rest is right. Regards, Schnitzel  MannGreek . 01:46, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I also got rid of the section about kachina dolls for it is debateable. But I left the part about the zia believing in spirits called kachinas for I believe that is true in their religious belief. But the doll part, like you said, isn't credible. Schnitzel MannGreek.
 * ....And the pictures that were other tribes....like the Hopi, I removed them. Since you live nearby, maybe you could get some pictures of the Zia pueblo and upload theM.We could use that here. There is barely any Zia pictures which is why I used others(sorry).But about doing basic reaserch, I know quite a bit about the Pueblo/Zia...its just that I got some facts intermixed, LIKE THE KACHINA DOLLS;) Schnitzel MannGreek . 01:59, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure kachina dolls, or at least the concept of kachina, are common to all Puebloan peoples.Synchronism (talk) 02:46, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's an example, not a reference http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/zia-kachina-dancer-olla-lg-marcellus-elizabeth.Synchronism (talk) 02:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, typically photography requires the consent of a Pueblo's governor.Synchronism (talk) 03:02, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ya, there are kachinas with the Zia which is why I kept the part about them under religion. But since I'm not sure of kachuna dolls I removed that for now. But the fact that kachina spirits is in their belief is accurate. Thanks for the link;)-- Schnitzel MannGreek . 12:37, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

CDP population does not equal tribal membership
I removed the population figures because they are for a somewhat sprawling Census Designated Place that is named after this tribe. The tribal boundaries do not necessarily equate the area of the CDP and members may live off reservation. Additionally, when one or more of these members buys land elsewhere in the United States it may become a part of the reservation.

This has been reverted without explanation by Esemono, I would like to know why as I will remove this again provided no satisfactory explanation .Synchronism (talk) 04:16, 6 July 2009 (UTC)I'm sorry Esemono, I saw a similar change at Zia Pueblo and... I've been edgy, I'm sorry, I feel like such an idiot. I thought I had removed this but I guess I messed that up too! I'm glad that it sparked your interest though. Thanks for working on the article,Synchronism (talk) 07:00, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ummm no I didn't. I did add that 600 Zia were killed in 1689 when the Spanish razed the Zia Pueblo.  Is that why you're confused? -- Esemono (talk) 05:00, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually now you've got me curious so I found this link from the ZIA webpage. Showing that there are 850 members of the Zia tribe so I'll use that figure in the infobox.  Also add that the governor is:

 PUEBLO OF ZIA GOVERNOR IVAN R. PINO 135 Capitol Square Dr. Zia Pueblo, NM 87053-6013 Phone (505) 867-3304 Fax (505) 867-3308 Lt. Gov. Fred Medina

Snowball?
The "Farming techniques" section mentions that giant snowballs were rolled from hillsides to provide water. This seems implausible to me, but I didn't want to delete it, because there is a citation. However, the citation seems to be a webpage created by a 5th and 6th grade class, so I'm not sure how reliable it is. Should this be deleted? E ric W es B rown (Talk) 17:52, 20 June 2011 (UTC)