Talk:Zicklin School of Business

Serious Flaws in this presentation
1. U.S. News & World Report is a somewhat limited news publication. Its views on and rankings of business schools are just plain irrelevant.

2. Crain's New York Business is hardly a top business journal. Crain's does a great job following the advertising industry; its other papers are at best tier-two sources, and limited largely to the New York scene.

3. Baruch College / Zicklin School of Business does not appear on the lists of
 * The Financial Times
 * Forbes
 * Economist
 * Business Week

In short, the business press -- the name-brand elements of it -- does not find much to say about Baruch, or CUNY in general, or the Zicklin School of Business in particular.

4. Baruch may in fact be a pretty good school for accountants. Sadly, gone are the days when accountants are at the heart of running businesses. We could explain this, but better not. It is not nice to be unkind. They can't help it. It's really not their fault....

5. Taken altogether, Baruch is actually not the best of the CUNY colleges. There is more to education -- especially undergraduate education in business -- than accounting and the odd management and marketing class. Half the degree program is arts-and-sciences; Baruch's arts and sciences programs are not stellar, and in general Hunter and Queens -- to a smaller degree, City College -- do far better. In particular, Baruch's undergraduate social sciences departments include some of the dullest people around; my kindly nature precludes me from naming names publicly. Since modern business education rests heavily on high quality research in the social sciences (economics, but also psychology, sociology and anthropology, and certainly history -- look at the best stuff coming out of HBS if you don't think this is so...), a crummy social sciences faculty is the kiss of death for the modern business education program.

Not to put too fine a point on it, this article is just plain bogus and should be flagged, or pulled.

And I think we will leave this anonymous. I teach in a CUNY college and am fond of my salary -- as is my landlord and my butcher and my grocer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.101.131.20 (talk • contribs)

Entrepreneur Ranking
Now that I've looked closely, the Baruch site indicates they're number 25, but the actual underlying cite indicates number 9. I suppose it's a just a choice which to refer to, but I'd think the underlying source. ButtonwoodTree (talk) 20:26, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I changed it to #9 and deleted the one that says #25. We can't have two sources for same sentence that contradict each other. Unless there were two different rankings, but, humorously it looks like Baruch was wrong about its own ranking, to its own detriment. JesseRafe (talk) 21:33, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Edits requested under WP:COI guidelines
I am working on behalf of Baruch College, of which Zicklin School of Business is a part, to improve the quality of the college's entries. In keeping with WP:COI, I am not making any changes to the article myself. In keeping with WP:NPOV, I am carefully providing references, avoiding marketing language, and otherwise adhering to the letter and spirit of Wikipedia guidelines.

The Zicklin entry does indeed have "multiple issues," but not the issues cited in the current templates at the top of the entry. The edits by the conflicted "major contributor" (who was not me) have been reverted, and the puffery/advertising issues have largely been resolved -- and I believe they will be entirely eliminated by the edits suggested below. So I suggest the templates should be removed as the edits below are made.

The currently existing "issues" include insufficient sourcing, outdated or undated rankings information, haphazard organization, repetitive statements, and typos.

Because the edits I propose are so extensive, I am providing complete formatted text for each section of the article. At the end of each section, I explain why I think the edits are appropriate.

Introductory section
The Zicklin School of Business (commonly known as Zicklin) is Baruch College's business school. It was established in 1919 and is named after financier and alumnus Lawrence Zicklin. Zicklin offers the following degree programs:
 * Undergraduate BBA
 * Full Time MBA
 * Professional MBA
 * Executive MBA
 * Master of Science (MS)
 * Executive MS in Finance
 * Executive MBA in Health Care Administration.
 * Joint JD/MBA
 * PhD in Business, offered by Baruch College and the Graduate Center of the City University of New York.

Since 2014 the dean of the school has been H. Fenwick Huss, the former dean of the J. Mack Robinson College of Business at Georgia State University. Zicklin is the only unit of the City University of New York that is accredited by the Association to Advance College Schools of Business (AACSB).


 * Rationale for edits: Removes undefined and unsourced reference to "largest business school"; updates and corrects nomenclature for degree programs; eliminates confusing reference to the former dean; puts the AACSB accreditation information in a logical place, instead of the two illogical places where it currently resides.


 * Thank you for this. As the article has been stable for some time, I have removed that template. However, I don't think bullets should ever be above the TOC and as a separate issue, bullets should be used as sparingly as possible. This list, for example, is fairly vacuous and can easily be consolidated. What does "Professional MBA" mean? That is a meaningless term. How is it different than an MBA or an Executive MBA?
 * Please just make your edits on the main page, and we can clean it from there, rather than go back and forth on multiple pages. Use WP:BRD. JesseRafe (talk) 22:39, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Overview

 * Eliminate the section: content has been moved elsewhere

History
In 1919, the City College of New York established a School of Business and Civic Administration, offering its first MBA program one year later. The school was renamed in 1953 in honor of Bernard M. Baruch, noted statesman and financier, who was instrumental in the school's formation. In 1968, after the addition of arts and sciences departments and degree programs, Baruch became a senior college within the CUNY system.

In 1998, Baruch's business school was renamed the Zicklin School of Business, in recognition of an $18 million donation by Lawrence and Carol Zicklin. Zicklin ('57) was formerly the managing partner of investment management firm Neuberger Berman.


 * Rationale for edits: clarifies the progression of institutional names; removes the relocated reference to AACSB; fixes typos.

Rankings
''See also: Baruch College Rankings


 * Princeton Review and Entrepreneur magazine ranked Zicklin #6 in 2015 among colleges nationally for its undergraduate entrepreneurship program, and #9 for the graduate school program.
 * U.S. News & World Report, in its 2015 ranking of "best business schools," listed Zicklin as #77 nationally and #3 in New York City, behind Columbia and NYU.
 * In 2015, Forbes ranked MBA programs for "best return on investment," and Zicklin ranked #55 nationally.
 * Crain's New York Business included Zicklin in 2014 on its list of "top 25 MBA programs in the New York Area."


 * Rationale for edits: eliminates unsourced, badly sourced or outdated rankings; eliminates rankings that properly apply to Baruch rather than to its subsidiary Zicklin; provides link to Baruch College rankings; carefully supplies original third-party sources for all rankings.

Departments

 * Stan Ross Department of Accountancy
 * Computer Information Systems
 * Bert W. Wasserman Department of Economics and Finance
 * Law
 * Narendra Paul Loomba Department of Management
 * Allen G. Aaronson Department of Marketing & International Business
 * Operations Research and Quantitative Methods
 * William Newman Department of Real Estate
 * Statistics


 * Rationale for edits: provides endowed names for all departments that have them; only some of the endowed names are currently provided.


 * This is not a brochure. The vanity names do not belong, and if there is not information about them, why even say anything about them? This can be done away with, further, is there a "law" department? JesseRafe (talk) 22:40, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Centers & Institutes

 * Lawrence N. Field Center for Entrepreneurship
 * Steven L. Newman Real Estate Institute
 * Wasserman Trading Floor/Subotnick Financial Services Center
 * Weissman Center for International Business
 * Robert Zicklin Center for Corporate Integrity


 * Rationale: This suggested new section provides the names of specialized or cross-disciplinary programs at Zicklin. As with the existing Departments section and the list of degrees at the top, it helps give a sense of the breadth of the school's programs.

Lex 1503 (talk) 17:14, 11 November 2015 (UTC)


 * This information should be included with the departments as one section if either of them belong, but not as a bare list. JesseRafe (talk) 22:51, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

All edits, by COI editor or not, should go on main page
If you are looking for a way to experiment with Wikipedia there is the Sandbox link up at the top where your User page, messages and Talk Page, etc are. There is also the option of userfying something you could look into. But the Talk Page should not be edited in the manner it just was, namely to mirror changes in the Article space. I understand why the user did this, but after discussion in the relevant subsections above the takeaway should have been to be bold (see: BRD) and actually make any remaining edits needed on the actual page. No reason to parrot them here. Talk page comments are a testament to the history of the conversation about the page and should not be bowdlerized to make them appear more in line with the current look of the main page. JesseRafe (talk) 19:59, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Didn't mean to edit the Talk page, was trying to paste code from Talk page into the Article, but saved into Talk instead.Lex 1503 (talk) 20:17, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Got you. That is a problem that doesn't surprise me that it cropped up given this method you took to putting content on the Talk Page in the first place. I don't assume malice, just unfamiliarity. A lot of the boxes on here look the same and few come with explicit instructions on what should go where. Cheers, JesseRafe (talk) 20:27, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

City versus State
Starting a discussion on the city versus state issue. While I've equivocated myself, based upon a review of the facts, in my opinion, it should be characterized as a city institution, not a state institution. Although CUNY was established by an act of the state legislature, all entities commercial, charitable, educational, philanthropic, are creations of the state, cites can't create their own legal entities. As a consequence, we wouldn't say that all state chartered entities are "state" institutions. Although there is no doubt CUNY receives both state and city funding, to me, the compelling fact is that it seems CUNY tuition is HIGHER for non-city residents and the only way to obtain the city rate is the live in New York City. To call something a state entity, I believe all residents of the state need to be treated equally. For example, entry fees to a state park are the same for everyone regardless of where you live. This contrasts with county and local parks which may charge higher rates for non-residents or may not permit entry at all. As a result of CUNY's differential tuition structure, I believe this renders it a "city" entity versus a "state" entity: CUNY Admissions-Tuition   Just my opinion, of course and based upon my understanding its tuition structure. ButtonwoodTree (talk)


 * Exactly. Sorry I had not started this myself, had a lot on my plate and was minimizing non-automated processes. You make excellent points with an apt comparison here. I would further state that there is an additional confusion, in that in the edits I reverted "state" was being used as a proxy word for "public", which is not accurate synonymy. Word usage should reflect that SUNY is a state school and a public school and gets state funding, and is obviously not a city school. While CUNY is a city school and a public school, and although it gets state funding is not a state school. JesseRafe (talk) 16:26, 31 December 2015 (UTC)