Talk:Zilan massacre

This is not massacre; It's rebellion

 * 1514 Kurds voluntarily accept Ottoman rule and as a result the Sultan formally recognized the existing Kurdish principalities (Baban, Botan, Badinan, Soran, etc) as independent states under Osmanli supervision.
 * 1870 Last of the Kurdish principalities abolished.
 * 10 Aug 1920Treaty of Sèvres contains provisions for a Kurdish state which however, are never implemented.
 * 24 Apr 1920   Mosul declared a part of Iraq.
 * 1927 - 1931  Republic of Ararat (Agri) in northeastern part of Turkey; primarily a rebellion of Kurmanci Kurds.
 * 12 Apr 1995 Kurdistan Parliament founded in exile.
 * 24 May 1999 Kurdistan National Congress founded.

This Republic of Ararat is not massacre, İt's rebellion. --Kmoksy (talk) 03:16, 5 September 2010 (UTC)


 * It's massacre committed by the Turkish Army in Van Province during Ararat Rebellion. With showing a meaningless chronology, you cannot make this massacre "original research". Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 03:35, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * "primarily a rebellion of Kurmanci Kurds" :-)--Kmoksy (talk) 03:36, 5 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe Turkish nationalists want to deny this massacre. But I couldn't find any denying thesis about this massacre. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 03:39, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Original research
This page is your original research --Kmoksy (talk) 03:40, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Why ? I only transferred information from sources. An user in German Wikipedia controlled this article and is translating to German language now. Please stop your unwarranted claim. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 03:47, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The original research translate-able to "German language" . What is Troll ? :-) --Kmoksy (talk) 04:02, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Zilan massacre was committed during Ararat Rebellion (1926 - 1930).

You said This Republic of Ararat is not massacre, İt's rebellion But it's nonsense.

For example, Khojaly Massacre was committed during Nagorno-Karabakh War (1988 - 1994).

Can you say ''Nagorno-Karabakh War is not massacre, It was a war" ?

Armenian Genocide was committed during World War I (1914 - 1918)

Can you say '"Armenian Genocide is not massacre, It was a war." ?

Please stop to add unfounded template and unwarranted claims. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 04:12, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Original
The Zilan "massacre" is your original research. --Kmoksy (talk) 04:16, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * No. I only transferred from sources including Devletin gözüyle Türkiye'de Kürt isyanları (Kurdish rebellions in the point of view of the government). If you feel that article could be original research you must prove with sources. Not with your own opinion. Takabeg (talk) 04:26, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Germans saying
The Two Germans saying: " während der Verfolgung und Untersuchung der Aufstände, die in Ercis, Zilan, Agridag (Ararat) und deren Umgebung, inklusive Pülümür in der Provinz Erzincan und der Gegend des Ersten Inspektorats ausgebrochen sind ". This is not "massacre" :-) --Kmoksy (talk) 04:33, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The rebellion took place and massacre also committed. Takabeg (talk) 04:39, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * your original comment --Kmoksy (talk) 04:51, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Why original ? We know Ararat Rebellion and we know Zilan Massacre committed during Ararat Rebellion. Takabeg (talk) 07:09, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

In short, Zilan massacre isn't equal to Ararat Rebellion (1926 - 1930) and Armenian Genocide isn't equal to World War I (1914 - 1918). Do you understand ? Takabeg (talk) 07:13, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Takabeg, how can you say "rebellion took place and massacre also committed"? This is your original comment. Only sources can verify it. You can't. Gökçe Yörük (talk) 13:42, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Nonsense ?
What is this. This page "Zilan Massacre" is your NONSENSE original research ! It's not confirmed by impartial sources --Kmoksy (talk) 13:10, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Komkujiya Geliyê Zîlan çawa qewimî?
I think information in this adress will help you a bit http://ararat-welat.blogspot.com/2010_11_01_archive.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.7.28.78 (talk) 16:29, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

On the death toll
There seem to be significant problems with the death toll in this article. Going through these one by one:
 * Hesen Hîşyar Serdî is a participant in the rebellion and not a neutral or reliable source for the death toll, he has conflicting political interests and there is no indication at how he reached this number. Frankly, it seems a bit unrealistic and anomalous: firstly, this would give an average death toll of 2600 per village, in which case they would not really be called villages but towns. This is very much a rural area, and by comparison, the rural population of Erciş today is around 66,000. This estimate then seems ludicrous, just compare it with the Berliner Tageblatt estimate of 4500 people in 220 villages. Secondly, there is no indication of how this single person arrived at this death toll. Population statistics, hearsay, counting 47,000 bodies? It is also much more than any other estimates in any other sources and apparently is only mentioned in a publication in a non-academic, pro-Kurdish publishing house. Frankly, if this figure is not clearly endorsed by academic sources or other highly reliable research on the subject, it needs to be promptly removed.
 * The Cumhuriyet report is not, by itself, a very solid source either. It says, firstly, "Zilan harekatında imha edilenlerin sayısı 15.000 kadardır", "the number of those destroyed in the Zilan operation is around 15,000", so it is absolutely original research to extrapolate this and say that this is the civilian death toll for the massacre. Hür simply quotes this single report but does not in any way endorse it. There is again, no indication of how this figure was found, it seems to be guesswork of a single journalist and is entirely out of context. The pro-government newspaper may simply have sought to inflate the number of adversaries killed to show the might of the Turkish military or perhaps the number of rebels were previously reported to be higher than "a few thousand" on Cumhuriyet. Without proper context and endorsement by reliable sources, it is original research to assume this death toll for the massacre.
 * The Berliner Tageblatt figure seems more realistic. Again, however, is the problem with this being a primary source, see WP:PRIMARY, and primary sources should not really be used to support death tolls in such contentious topics.
 * A quick research on Garo Sasuni has not revealed any academic links of this person. There is no indication of his expertise in the topic he is writing on and no indication of any publication record apart from the book Kürt Ulusal Hareketleri, which is presumably the one cited here. That does not really qualify him as a reliable source but judging by Agos citing him, he still appears to be our best bet here.
 * So I will proceed by immediately removing the estimate of 47,000. I will wait for some time before removing the Cumhuriyet and the Berliner Tageblatt estimates, the latter of which is the less problematic. --GGT (talk) 23:59, 3 June 2016 (UTC)


 * More problems emerge as I look more into this. The book by Kemal Süphandağ is repeatedly used in the article. This person appears to have absolutely no authority on historical matters. I have found no credible independent praise of his work. A look at his biography here indicated that he studied to become an independent inspector at the Istanbul Commerce University, that he has been a long-time pro-Kurdish local politician and that he is currently an accountant. And furthermore, he is a descendant of Kör Hüseyin Paşa, a leader of the Ararat rebellion. That does not seem to be a reliable source to me and I will be removing the parts supported by it. I also could not verify the names of the villages from Dicle News Agency as the article does not seem to be archived. Perhaps this could be a copy of the article. Here, it is stated that an unnamed participating soldier puts the number of villages destroyed at 44 and the death toll at 15,000; no list of villages is given. This is, unfortunately, very much a primary work, certainly has no academic dimension to it and unless the work or authors are praised or endorsed strongly by reliable sources, should not really make it to the article. Note that if these were rather minor details, this would be acceptable, but these are very large-scale, crucial facts that need strong verification. This is indeed a tragic event but our encyclopedic coverage must be based on strict criteria. --GGT (talk) 00:19, 4 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Yet another problem, whilst the remarks by İnönü are real and disturbing, they are not presented as the aftermath of the Zilan massacre by the sources in the article. I have found no mention of "Zilan" or "Zeylan" in White's book, the work of the Asia Minor Refugees Coordination Committee is a timeline that completely omits this event and there is no mention of this in the Köprü article either. This seems to be an ultra-nationalistic remark that happened to be made 18 days after the massacre. It is thus original research to present this as the aftermath of the massacre, and will remain so until a reliable work that does this is found. I am thus removing it along with İnönü's photo. --GGT (talk) 00:26, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

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