Talk:Zion

Arab Anti-Semitism?
What the hell is this? "Arab Muslims use the term Zionist to refer disparagingly to Jews (and occasionally 'the West' in general). It is intended to be offensive, but Zion carries holy connotations to many, so the effect is lost on its target." Seems like an attempt to equate Zionism with Judaism, and characterize anti-Zionists as anti-semites to me. It needs reworking, and the title should be completely rewritten. This is not NPOV at all. --Che y Marijuana 08:47, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)

On second thought, it has no place in the article. The word "Zionist" does not have any significance to a discussion of Zion, at least not in the way it was brought up. I have removed it, check above for the quote as it was before.--Che y Marijuana 08:53, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)

I'm an Arab Muslim and I haven't found anyone who refer Zion to western of Jew. Zionist are those who believe that they should establish a Jew country in Palestine. Unlike Jew which is a religion.. --User:mohdlawati

Actually this is why I looked up the term "Zion" - because I have on several occasions heard the term "Zionist" used to describe the West by Islamic Extremist groups like Al Qaeda and I was curious why they call us that, I can't quote any sources off the top of my head, but if I hadn't heard the term used in that sense I wouldn't have bothered look up the page =p. But yes the original statement is out of line and needs serious rethinking. --88.2.174.232 00:32, 13 July 2006 (UTC) Ryuujin

Anti-Zionist Rabbis believe that True Torah Jews, (Jews that believe in the Torah) should serve God and treat other people with kindness, dignity and mutual respect. They are very much against the belief that people that profess they are Jews can have an army and go around stealing other peoples' land and shooting missiles from helicopters. The ten commandments also should be followed by real Jews. The real question is then; what is Israel? The true meaning of Israel in Aramaic means "those that are of the Lord". Therefore, the true Israel is not a physical place with political boundaries run by Russian politicians. Rather it is the Earth itself. True Torah Jews--User:Angelman2405:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)~

Don't believe the modern rubbish of Zionism. Judaism =/= Zionism. Zionists love to reference Judaism to gain religious authority and a means of validation, as well as support from Christian Zionists and other extremist religious groups, in effect to gain legitimacy of their political motives.

Neturei Karta = http://www.nkusa.org/ Satmar = http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/satmar.htm

There are a number of other smaller groups who follow the same basic teachings of the above groups, but are not nearly as well organised. Zionism is not Judaism. Zionism at its core is very much a secular political ideology, whilst Judaism is a religion that although shares certain concepts of Zionism, does not wholly share all of Zionisms ideology. Put simply Judaism has been around for thousands of years, with a belief in divine redemption that will come at the hands of God, whereas Zionism is very much a modern entity created in the past couple of hundred years that believes the homeland for the Jews can be achieved through force, which is diametrically opposite to the Judaic understanding of what 'Israel' would be.


 * The above is a fine example of the Arab use of the word. It comes out of the basic Islamic belief that Jews are to be spread among the nations and subjected the Islamic rule. This, in itself, while perverted, is not anti semitism. The Arabs are not politically correct. When they wish to insult the Jews, they don't use the word "Zionists" or "Israelis", they simply say Jews, such as in the famous Arab saying "Itbaḥ Al-Yahood" TFighterPilot (talk) 21:51, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Rastafari
Source is Dread by Joseph Owens Squiquifox 23:41, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Removed "that for Rastas is the train (or plane or boat) that they dream of carrying them away to their heaven, Zion."

Actually, the song is way more complicated and metaphorical than that. I seriously doubt even in the 30's and 40's anyone seriously expected a train to take them from Jamaica to Africa!! The same "train" metaphor is also found in old Southern spirituals, been covered by Rod Stewart, blah blah blah, but it isn't really vital to this article... Codex Sinaiticus 4 July 2005 17:34 (UTC)

Why is 80% of Zion in Rastifari simply a list of songs that reference it. Zion is a very important concept for Rastifari and I am confused why the article treats it like this.

Zionism
This article does need a reference to Zionism, in that Zionism is an important concept for a lot of people today (good or bad), and Zion is the goal of Zionists. It needs less discussion of anime. Could somebody better educated about this subject correct this?--Cuchullain 15:26, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

Don't ignore Jews completely
This page does need *some* mention of the Jewish longing for Zion. Considering it's mentioned constantly in the Torah, on Jewish holidays, and in songs such as Hatikvah, it should have at least as much space dedicated to it as there is for the Rastafari longing for Africa.131.104.249.87 05:44, 14 September 2005 (UTC)Permanently Confused

From Zion National Park
Zion is an ancient Hebrew word meaning a place of refuge or sanctuary. Ksenon 23:18, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

U2's Love and Peace or Else - "Or your daughters of Zion"
In U2's song Love and Peace or Else, found in their How To Dismantle an Atomic Bomb album, the lyric says "Lay down your guns/All your daughters of Zion/All your Abraham sons" (or at least it's what I understand). Personally, I don't quite undestand if it has anything to do with the subject, and I would like to understand about possible wars or religious trouble involving this hill. U2 Meaning of Lyrics article about this song is not clear about it, saying only Bono Vox (U2 singer and lyricwriter) said some things that don't quite explain anything.

Hagia Zion
A mention of this structure (the Byzantine church which was once in this location) should also be in this article. Would one of the main editors like to add it, or shall I just find a good spot for it? One potential reference is here:. --Elonka 06:01, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Matisyahu referenced under Rastafari?
Though i haven't listened to his music, judging solely (and perhaps wrongly) by his religious and cultural background, i would doubt that Matisyahu's Zion references are the same as those of African or Rastafarian artists.

Aramaic definition
Anyone know the source of the claimed Aramaic translation of the term Zion? I cannot find any sources that substantiate the translation of Zion as "pure".

69.156.216.247 18:33, 11 July 2006 (UTC) DK

Pure?
I have moved this Talk because it seems to be idiosyncratic, contadicted by standard opinion and uncited:

"An alternative etymology holds that 'Zion' (Tziyyon) is from the Aramaic word meaning 'pure'. Because a man had to be pure to enter the tent where the Ark of the Covenant was kept, this tent became known as Zion. When the Ark was brought by the Israelites into the Promised Land, the land itself was known as Zion -- pure and holy, because it contained the Ark. When the Israelites were captives in Babylon and cried for Zion, it wasn't only for their homeland, but for the Ark itself, for the state of being pure, holy, chosen."

Paul B 10:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Matrix
Zion is also the name of the "last free city" in the Matrix trilogy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.6.196.170 (talk • contribs)


 * Check the very first line and click on the very first link: Zion (disambiguation). ←Humus sapiens ну? 20:05, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Must say I consider that The Matrix's Zion needs a mention on here. With all the other biblical illusions in the film Zion is no doubt named by the directors/writers The Matrix after the original Jewish city. I might even add it myself. Unless anyone can give me a good reason why not to. Cls14 (talk) 11:23, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

"Zionism" section
Hello Humus Sapien,

You reverted a change that I made to the "Zionism" section of the Zion article. I wondered what your objections were. As I'm asking you, I should explain my rationale:
 * You and I may see Zionism as a national liberation movement, but that is our POV. Please read the national liberation movement article and ask yourself which "occupation or false governance" is Zionism liberating Israel from?
 * I changed the visible wording of the "political movement" link to match the actual article it links to and for the clarity of the sentence.
 * Similar to my first point, the link "Land of Israel" in the context of that particular sentence, shows a certain bias. Some people think of that geographical area as containing Israel, some as Palestine, some have other ideas.  But despite what you, I or others may think, this is all POV.  Levant is a purely physical geographical term which is accurate in the context of that particular sentence and is neutral.  Also the (short) Levant article links to many relevant articles, including Land of Israel, [Palestine], and [Canaan].  For another example of this, read British_isles:  This is not Britain, the UK or anything political, it is just (properly) used geographically.
 * Finally, I replaced the word "over" with "some" (originated over 3,200 years ago) because "over 3200" could mean 3201 years ago or 6000 years ago: It's sloppy use of English.  I suspect, and accept my apologies if I'm wrong, that change didn't register with you because you were outraged with the other changes.

Phyddeau 12:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)Phyddeau

Arabic language
Why Arabic language was added? Is Zion a significant concept in Arab/Muslim culture? ←Humus sapiens ну? 05:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Sublime and Rivers of Babylon
It mentions in references that Zion was mentioned by Sublime in Rivers of Babylon. However, Sublime did not do the original version of that song- it was a cover of the song done by The Melodians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.126.46.147 (talk) 05:03, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

City of Enoch
It seems that Zion is commonly linked with the ante-deluvian figure of Enoch, although I don't have any sources on hand right now to add this. Some have also apparently called him the Zionist, since he was the rumoured founder of the city. ADM (talk) 16:39, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Heaven
Modern day Evangelical Christians refer to a future Zion located in Heaven. My guess is this stems from the "New Jerusalem" mentioned in the book of Revelation. I am not a theologian so I am not sure where this comes from. I was just surprised to see that this was not mentioned in the article. Chryslerfan (talk) 14:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe you are correct, Christian biblical teaching in passages such as Hebrews 12:22-24 show a metaphorical Zion as the kingdom of God. This kingdom is presented as both current and future.  This use of the word in such a way should be part of the article. (Howardd21 (talk) 13:21, 19 September 2009 (UTC))

Biblical usage
This section states: "The name Zion appears 154 times in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) some examples from the book of Psalms, which have been frequently recited and memorized by Jews for centuries, state:" and then goes on to quote some verses from the King James Bible ( as denoted by the use of KJV accompanying the chapter and verse) this was created 1n 1611 during the reign of King James I who being king was the head of the Church of England. The passage is misleading in that it seems so say that the quoted verses are from the Hebrew bible, when in fact they come from a CofE version.--Wintonian (talk) 00:41, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Incomplete Bible reference.
I was surprised to see that the Bible reference to the 'first mention' of Zion in the Bible is given in a non-standard form. Where it states Samuel ll 5-7 it pought to read 2Samuel 5:7. Not sure how to correct it, but it is a very basic error and I am surprised that it hasn't been spotted/sorted before..

92.21.224.13 (talk) 20:01, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Loss of Hebrew spelling?
In all of the recent changes, the spelling of Zion in Hebrew got lost, while I don't mind it being added for Arabic (and think both spellings should be very close to the top), the fact that it isn't in the article in Hebrew seems a little screwy.Naraht (talk) 20:03, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

As well as the use of Zion in the Latin language in reference to perfection of a place or palace, coming from the word Zoid which means; All living plants and animals. (1956 oxford dictionary)

"In popular culture" Edit
I removed "In the gaming culture, Fallout: New Vegas features a downloadable content titled "Honest Hearts" where the player travels to a place known as "Zion" because the "Zion" you travel to is Zion National Park in Utah and it is clearly stated so in the game. 71.17.16.79 (talk) 20:33, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Zion is a planet from
Zion Is the planet from second Milky way 49.205.99.79 (talk) 07:20, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Yang sector (Taoist philosophy)
Word referring to "Yang" countries in a sector all of them using the word Zion.

Perhaps the word has no meaning for the Semite.

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Judaism, religious aspects: unsourced, dubious interpretations
The first paragraph is unsourced.

The second looks quite dubious, seems disconnected from alleged source:


 * "In Kabbalah, the more esoteric reference is made to Tzion being the spiritual point from which reality emerges, located in the Holy of Holies of the First, Second and future Third Temple. [ref: R. Heshy Grossman, The Weekly Parsha: A New Dimension. Parshas Devarim: Tisha b'Av.]"

1.) Are any of the works cited in the source from the Kabbalah, or are they all just from the Talmud? BIG difference!

2.) Source doesn't seem to reference the physical Temple, definitely not the Second one (at most alluded to in the passage about the return from Babylon, where the rebuilt Zion is but a shell empty of holiness), nor a literal Third. The cited sermon is strictly esoterical. Here we have a very personal interpretation, which wildly diverts from the source, I'd say.

Anyone? David, hi, maybe you would be interested? Thanks, Arminden (talk) 12:45, 1 December 2023 (UTC)