Talk:Zionism/Archive 2

I obliterated much of the content, but I don't have time to explain my deletions here. I will later (in a few days, actually). If you want to restore some of the prose, that's fine, I'll delete it again later and explain then. I hope that I have laid out a little bit of a more sane framework for the discussion of Zionism as an ideology, its history, etc., although I'm nowhere close to done on just the framework questions. The thing that amazes me is there's so much marvelous fact to go through, so many books, so many records, and yet we have next to nothing about the history of Zionism, its pioneers or its institutions here. DanKeshet


 * Your edits are fine. I just am restoring some material that emphasizes the diversity of views among Zionists.  One of my big concerns, not just on this issue but on science and philosophy issues, is correcting widely-held misperceptions.  In this case, many people believe that Zionists all have a common agenda, while in reality little could be further from the truth. (e.g. capitalists vs. communists, left-wing Peace Now types versus Greater Israel expansionists, etc.) RK 00:42 14 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * RK, I agree with you that it's very important to present truth in situations where there a lot of misconceptions. But I would rather show the differences in Zionist ideologies than tell the reader that they exist.  For example, our text should describe Ber Borochov and his views and also describe Vladimir Jabotinsky and his views.  This would do the reader a far greater service than merely saying that there are a variety of views.


 * Also, I don't think it's appropriate to classify Zionist thought on the capitalist-socialist political axis. Much of Zionist (and Israeli) political thought revolves around different issues (e.g. the Arab question, or secular vs. religious), so "right-left" serves to obfuscate rather than illustrate the issues involved.  Where does Shinui fit on the American political axis?  Nowhere.  Even the "socialist" Zionists have a different understanding of socialism than most other socialists.


 * Finally, just as a style point: I note that in some of the text (e.g. the first paragraph), you have a tendency to repeat the same point in consecutive sentences. In each of these cases, I have tended to combine the sentences, or simply delete one of them, in the interests of concise writing.  Peace, DanKeshet

I am wondering how, or even if, any of the following should be used within this article: RK 00:57 14 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * Zionism recognizes that Jewish peoplehood is characterized by certain common values relating to religion, culture, language, history and basic ideals and aspirations, although secular and religious Zionists emphasize these aspects differently. Zionists hold that Israel should be a historically, culturally and religiously Jewish state. This does not mean that all citizens must be Jews, nor does it mean that Jewish citizens must be religiously observant. As defined by the documents and practices of Zionists over the past century, what Zionism means in practice is that Israel is Jewish in much the same way that Saudi Arabia is Arab. About 80% of Israelis are Jews; the rest are Muslim Arabs, Christian Arabs, Druze and Bedouin, with other ethnic and religious minorities.

DanKeshet, why are you deleting material on the variety of beliefs and programs that exist within Zionism? This is very pertinent to the topic, and it corrects some widely held misperceptions. This is the second time you have deleted nearly all of this material without comment, and without offering an alternative. I am very willing to work with you; please comment. RK 23:23 15 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I have proposed an alternative to this article at User:Adam Carr/Zionism Adam 15:12, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)