Talk:Ziryab/Archive 1

Merge suggestion
Someone has suggested that either the Ziryab be merged into the Zyriab article, or vice versa. I think the best choice would be to merge into Ziryab and have Zyriab as a redirect, if for no other reason that "Ziryab" seems the more common transliteration of the name into English. Crypticfirefly 03:11, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Any transliteration is fine with me. Redirect the other. Lets just make sure that all material are merged.--Zereshk 12:44, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Talk moved from Talk:Zyriab

A few sources also spell the name Ziriab. It would be nice if there is one article to which one woul dbe directed when using any of the variant spellings in a search. --JStripes 06:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Dates
Can someone clarify the dates on this person's life? I think the "822-52" is that, but not sure. See other biographies like Adolf Hitler or Vera Rubin for typical format of biography articles. --zandperl 01:49, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * His dates, according to al-Maqqari's source Ibn Hayyan al-Andalusi: 789-857.

The name of this person is misspelled, in fact there is already a more complete entry under the correct spelling Ziryab. Someone more technically inclined than I please fix this. DelDav 06:20, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I dont think there is a "dispute" about his Persian vs. Kurdishness. He is a Kurd from Persia. Fars Province during Sassanid times had a Kurdish majority. In fact Ardashir I was son of a Kurdish mother from Istakhr. Their population was heterogenized only after the Arab invasion.--Zereshk 15:41, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * You may be right. Then Persian-Kurdish means : a kurd from persia. About the dispute, here is my reference . I am not an expert in this field. -- Mensen 12:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it would be safe to say a Persian-Kurd. Or a Kurdish-Persian. Or a Kurd from Arzhang Valley in Fars Province (more accurate). We just dont need to use the word "dispute". It has negative connotations that are too strong.--Zereshk 02:00, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I deleted the statement about the "dispute". -- Mensen 10:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

1) "Ziryab" is standard transliteration for English, full stop. 2) The earliest (and most reliable) sources for him say absolutely nothing about his origins. What the earliest source (Ibn 'Abd Rabbih, d. 940) does say is that he was BLACK, a black slave. Hence, he could not have been Kurdish or Persian. As indicated above, all this is explained under the article "Ziryab". This entry should be scrapped. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.66.228.49 (talk) 03:55, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd consider adding "circa" before every mention of his birth and death years, because every source seems to report a different year (the Encyclopaedia of Islam reports 790–852 ). Just want to get a second opinion before I make the change. —Ifandonlyif0 (talk) 10:59, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * In the absence of a response, I've gone ahead and made the change. The Encyclopaedia of Islam was already referenced in the 'Extra sources' section (though I corrected the spelling to include the 'a' in 'Encyclopaedia').—Ifandonlyif0 (talk) 17:39, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Zyriab's ancestry
Historians differ over whether Zyriab was African, Persian or Kurdish.

According to some sources, Zyriab was a liberated black slave from the 9th century Baghdad court of Haroun al-Rashid. Heja Helweda 23:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Lets include all views then.--Zereshk 00:50, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be some confusion about this artist's nickname and whether his name can point to his ancestry. I'd like to see a scanned page from an Arabic-English dictionary that shows the word زرياب (Zaryaab) as blackbird. My 6-volume Persian to Persian dictionary points to "Zorzur" as a bird larger than a swallow that is black or black with white markings, but no reference to Zaryaab.

I have a distinct feeling that those who make the relation between Ziryab and blackbird are not accurate. As I read this discussion I see allegations, but not actual facts.

Zar-Yaab, is a Persian word that literally means Gold-Finder. Zar or Gold in Persian doesn't always relate to the precious metal. Gold can mean anything of exceptional value, it can also mean a secret or knowledge. A Zaryaab, as Ziryab's name is correctly pronounced and spelled in Persian, to me signifies one who mines gold or highest good out of everything in life. As a Zaryaab, he brings out the "gold" or the best in everything that he does. Zaryaab was no doubt Persian.--Ruminet (talk) 03:44, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

=> Look, the earliest and most reliable source for Ziryab (Ibn 'Abd Rabbih, d. 940) calls him a black slave ('abdun aswadu in Arabic). Ibn 'Abd Rabbih lived in the generation following Ziryab, and almost certainly knew people who had known the musician, including some of his students. All the sources after that are operating on garbled versions of his story. "Ziryaab" the word may or may not be Persian in origin, but Ziryab the man definitely was NOT. "Blackbird" is as good a translation as any, since all the early sources agree that he was called "Ziryab" because the color of his skin and his beautiful voice reminded people of a songbird.

As for his dates, Ibn Hayyan al-Qurtubi (d. 1076) states that he died in 243 AH (857 CE) at the age of 70 years. That puts his birth in 173 AH (789 CE). 66.66.228.49 (talk) 04:12, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Merge suggestion
Someone has suggested that either the Ziryab be merged into the Zyriab article, or vice versa. I think the best choice would be to merge into Ziryab and have Zyriab as a redirect, if for no other reason that "Ziryab" seems the more common transliteration of the name into English. Crypticfirefly 03:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed, we should fix on Ziryab. This is consistent with the usual system of transliteration. Andrew Dalby 16:22, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

saying he was a gourmand is quite a bad thing to say!

زرياب
"زرياب" does not mean and is not a name of a black bird in Arabic. Not one dictionary has been cited that states "Ziryab" is Arabic for a black bird. However, Muhammad al-Qazzaz ibn 'Ubada the Arab poet said, "Ziryab is a word for ‘gold’ which was given to that singer as a nickname because his colour was the colour of gold." The word for gold in Arabic is "Thahab," the word for gold in Kurdish is "zêr" and in Farsi is "zer." "Ab" is Farsi for water and "Av" is Kurdish for water; the "v" sound does not exist in Arabic and in some languages is changed to a "b" sound. However, the blackbird being referred to here in Arabic is called "الشحرور" pronounced al-Shahroor, what is known as the common blackbird. The Arabic sources say he was born in Mosul (http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%B2%D8%B1%D9%8A%D8%A7%D8%A8)

زرياب Ziryab in Arabic is name of a black bird with a nice voice, this is a strong evidence that Ziryab was a liberated African slave although he was born in Baghdad, although black people in the middle east consider their selves as Arab.Aziz1005 17:32, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * زریاب is definitely not Arabic name. zaryaab, Paryaab, daryaab,..are Persian words.  Arabic names come from a three constonant root word.  Zar in Persian means gold and yaab means obtainable.. --alidoostzadeh 02:42, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * زرياب means blackbird ( According to Ibn Hayyan, 'Ali Ibn Nafi' was called Blackbird because of his extremely dark complexion, the clarity of his voice and "the sweetness of his character. ) and in all sources زرياب means blackbird even the sources in the article say that والسلام عليكم  .Aziz1005 11:45, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Saudi Aramco is not a reliable friend. You can not find an Arabic etymology based on Arabic grammatical rules for زریاب and there are also Arabic loan words as well from Persian even some in the Qur'an فردوس مجوس فیل ..etc..  Here is another source: Hispano Arabic Poetry: A Student Anthology By James T. Monroe, pg 7, Modernism had been brought from the court of Harun ar-Rashid by Ziryab, the Persian signer who became an arbiter elegantiarum in the provincial capital of al-Andalus.  The Story of the Moors in Spain By Stanley Lane-Poole, Arthur Gilman pg 81 also says he was Persian.  Folk etymology is something, but the word زریاب does not have a clear Arabic root.  --alidoostzadeh 17:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Alternative sources about Ziryab
Hi,

I believe that we can reach a consensus. There are some sources that refer to his black complexion, African descent, etc. So I think these sources along with the sources supporting Persian background, should be included.

Since he has lived in Andalus and Spain for a long time, we should include his nickname in Spanish too. So I think these facts should be acknowledged.Heja Helweda 21:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * His name in Spanish is El Pájaro Negro(The Black Nightingale). Source: C. Dover, The Black Knight, Phylon, 1954, pp.41-57 (see p.50).
 * Encyclopedia Americana says that he was Afro-Persian. (The Encyclopedia Americana, Grolier Inc., 2000.)
 * He was known as Ziryab (the Black Bird), because of his dark complexion and his melodious and eloquent voice. Source:I. Van Sertima, The golden Age of the Moor, Transaction Publishers, 1992, ISBN 1560005815, p.17


 * Dear Heja, all the major sources describe him as Persian, there is an academic consensus on Ziryab's origin, for every fringe source that describes him as something else, there are 20 reliable sources that call him Persian. According to Dehkhoda dictionary, the name Ziryab means golden water in Persian. Also many Persians and people of Middle Eastern descent have dark complexion, what is Afro-Persian anyways? Please respect Wikipedia's policy on fringe sources, and undo weight. --Mardavich 08:56, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Afro-Persian refers to a mixed African/Persian ancestry. Here is another source referring to him as an Arab:


 * ''Without question, the most important Arabic musician of all time is the legendary Ziryab (850 CE), a virtuoso
 * oudist, composer, and seminal figure of Flamenco.
 * Source:Richard O.Nidel, World Music: The Basics, Routledge, 424 pp., 2005, p.195 ISBN 0415968003 (Available online at
 * books.google.com).
 * One more thing, Dehkhoda was obviously biased since he was Persian, in the same way that Arab/African writers may be biased toward their own ethnicity and call Ziryab an Arab/Afican. Therefore we can not base our argument based on such quotes from Arabic or Persian writers. What we need to do is to include all neutral Western academic sources, and evidently there is no consensus among them regrading Ziryab's ethnicity.Heja Helweda 21:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi, wasn't Ziryab a Kurd?? I've ever heard and thought of him as a Kurd. Brusk u Trishka 22:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok men, I've got a scholarly source which introduces him as a Kurd. (and it is from 2007 :)) Brusk u Trishka 23:08, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Come on unblock the page. Brusk u Trishka 10:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The first step should be to convince the other editor that he may not have been Persian and contrary to his assertion there is actually no consensus among scholars. Then we can include Kurd, Arab or African as well. It was a good source by the way. Gelek Sipas.Heja Helweda 16:51, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks Brusk u Trishka 00:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Persian and Arab are broad terms which in turn may include various ethnic groups. In contrary Kurdish is a more axact term of an ethnicity.
 * Here is a credible source for Kurdish background of Ziryab. (Read page 53). Brusk u Trishka 17:31, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * One source means nothing, the Kurdish, Afro-Persian, Arab (many western sources use the term Muslim and Arabs equivalently) etc theories are all fringe ideas since the vast majority of sources refer to him as Persian, and there is a consensus among scholars on the issue of his ethnicity, see for yourself. This could be considered a dispute if there were like 10 reliable sources referring to him as Kurdish or something else, but when pretty much every scholar, and every Encyclopedia out there, agrees that he was Persian, giving undo weight to fringe ideas is against the Wikipedia policy on undo weight. Dekhoda's dictionary is cited in many references. Besides the etymology is correct, and his name is Persian. However, as a compromise, we could just call him "Iranic" and that would cover both Kurds and Persians.--Mardavich 23:41, 5 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but I don't agree with the term Iranic as it is too vague ( it may also refer to Pashtuns, Ossetians,...). It is better to agree to include all other reliable sources(Books, scholarly papers) as well. I suggest Persian/Arab/African/Kurd. What's the big deal? Heja Helweda 16:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The big deal is that 99% of all sources say he was Persian, giving undo eight to the other fringe theories is against Wikipedia's policy on undo weight. By the way, African is not the ethnicity. Afro-Persian means a Persian from Africa. There was a good number of Persians in Africa at one time. --Mardavich 17:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 99% ? Oh, come on :). I have 5 sources and you have got 7 sources. 99% of 12 isnot 7. Afro-Persian means a person from a mixed ancestry. Cheers.Heja Helweda 19:06, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, I have well over 50 sources, if you insist, I can list them all for you here one by one. --Mardavich 19:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Here is one more scholarly article about Ziryab being a Kurd. Brusk u Trishka 00:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Dear Brusak, as I already explained, for every source that calls him Kurd or anything else, there are more than dozens of sources that call him Persian, and Wikipedia says that in such cases, undo weight should not be given to a few alternative sources. I proposed a compromise, and that was to call him "Iranic", which would cover both Persians and Kurds. Heja doesn't like that, but at that time, there were no "Persians" or "Kurds", all the Iranians were simply called "Ajam" or "Irani", so that looks like a good compromise to me. Alternatively, we could adopt a compormise like "while most sources state that he was Persian, a few sources call him Kurdish" or something similar, even though that would still be giving undo weight to the Kurdish theory, considering the sheer number of sources calling him Persian. --Mardavich 14:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * What about the other sources that call him Arab or African? No cherry picking please. All sources have to be mentioned. Although we can add that While many sources refer to him as Persian, some sources consider him to be of Arab/African or Kurdish background. This looks like a fair compromise to me.Heja Helweda 21:37, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Guys we are supposed to be looking for ethnic origin of Ziryab. none of Arab and Persian were ethnic names up to the 19th and 20th centuries. The name persian was a pejorative term, non-Iranic peoples used to refer to Iranic peoples; and name Arab was refered to all desert dweller semitic tribes (and later all Muslims). Even in Koran the name Arab is not regarded as an ethnic name. Arab speaking people to this day prefer to consider themselves as Syrian, Egyptian, Mesopotamian etc rather than Arab (...with ALL my respect to Arabic speaking people).
 * But the word Kurd is refered to a certain ethnic group in a certain geographical area. Brusk u Trishka 23:20, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * If he was Kurdish, his name would be Ziraw or Zirav. Ab is Persian while Aw/Av is Kurdish. But since there is no doubt in sources about him being Iranian, we can say "Iranic of Persian or Kurdish origin" as a compromise. --Mardavich 05:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Now let's look at the facts here.

According to most sources, Zyriab was a liberated black slave from the 9th century Baghdad court of Haroun al-Rashid.

زرياب Ziryab is an Arabic word for a BLACK bird known for the BEAUTIFUL SOUND it makes, this is a strong evidence that Ziryab was a liberated, or the descendant of African slave born in ARAB Baghdad. Common you don't need to ba an arab or a linguist to figure this out... The man was obviously black. So if ur looking for the race thats done. If u r looking for ethnicity then i can only hope you don't get accused of euro-centrism. I agree with user Aziz1005 black people consider themselves arabs in the arab world because its a cultural and geographical/civic identity, considering him african would only be valid if u r bassing ur statements on race. He is an arab of african descent, he's a black arab thats all...

In regards to the arab Vs. persian name, i think its more probable that a musician and a singer will be named after a black bird with a nice voice then a then being called a gold digger or "obtainable gold"

Since the man was undipustedly playing the oud and not another form of lute like instrument (oudpage.tripod.com/ziryab.htm) it is more probable that he was an arab musician. Since to this day Persian musicians, especially Irani musician do not use the oud but another lute like instrument, the sitar i think its called.

I agree with the person that said for every ressource that says he is kurdish there are dozens that refer to him a persian, but i add that there are three dozens that say he was arab. I am not surprised by this struggle, this struggle over the ethnic identity of muslim figures is common despite the fact that none of the reknown Persian figures are considered arabs whilst most of the reknown arab figures are considered persian by the persians.

This article in the format it is locked in is CLEARLY THE SUBJECT OF BIAS. Common!! Its a widely held belief amongst academics and average people alike that he is a black arab. YET WE SEE NOTHING OF THAT, you wouldn't think AT ALL that the widely held argument that he was an arab was prevalent, let alone existes. " Shojaedin Shafa (شجاع الدین شفا) in his book Iran and Spain (ایران و اسپانیا) goes into detail about the fallacy of claims of Ziryab's "Arab origins". His argument can be found on p.325-340 of his book. Farzad publications 2005 (نشر فرزاد). "   This reference was placed by one of our nationalistic persian friends... regardless of that and regardless of the fact that the author is Persian (who u would expect to be at least as biased as arab academics in regards to this topic) the fact that this Persian academic mentions a supposed arab ziryab, even if to disclaim that, should at least be sufficient to recognise the "possibility" that he might be arab and/or that some academics (many actually..) argue that he was arab.

Finally, Regardless whether he is originally of any other descent or not, it should be mentionned that he is an arab, since he was originally from Baghdad and actually lived in Arab Spain (the same way gibran khalil gibran is an arab american, or matin luther king an african american,). Ziryab could be a persian arab, a kurdish arab, an african arab. The same way my own mother is a persian arab, and egyptians, Saudis, Iraqis are all arabs.

Just make it simple and please everybody, mention the different arguments and the ifferent points of views. But please at least mention the possibility that he might be Arab since it is the most widely held belief, and especially since wikipedia keeps denying the arabic identity its own self-identity and bases the arab ethnicity on race. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.89.14.78 (talk) 01:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

=> Why rely upon secondhand, Western scholarship when there are people who have actually looked into the earliest Arabic soruces for Ziryab?

For the record: NOT ONE of the early sources for Ziryab (i.e. those from before the 12th century) says Ziryab was an Arab. He wasn't. Yes, he lived in Baghdad for a while, but NO ONE KNOWS where he was really from — none of the early sources tells us. This is not a matter for "consensus" when there is actual scholarship on the matter. It's just ... a mystery, and not worth speculating about.

Look, the earliest and most reliable source for Ziryab (Ibn 'Abd Rabbih, d. 940) calls him a black slave ('abdun aswadu in Arabic). Ibn 'Abd Rabbih lived in the generation following Ziryab, and almost certainly knew people who had known the musician, including some of his students. All the sources after that are operating on garbled versions of his story. "Ziryaab" the word may or may not be Persian in origin, but Ziryab the man definitely was NOT. "Blackbird" is as good a translation as any, since all the early sources agree that he was called "Ziryab" because the color of his skin and his beautiful voice reminded people of a songbird.

As for his dates, Ibn Hayyan al-Qurtubi (d. 1076) states that he died in 243 AH (857 CE) at the age of 70 years. That puts his birth in 173 AH (789 CE). 66.66.228.49 (talk) 04:22, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality
Jagged 85 (talk · contribs) is one of the main contributors to Wikipedia (over 67,000 edits; he's ranked 198 in the number of edits), and practically all of his edits have to do with Islamic science, technology and philosophy. This editor has persistently misused sources here over several years. This editor's contributions are always well provided with citations, but examination of these sources often reveals either a blatant misrepresentation of those sources or a selective interpretation, going beyond any reasonable interpretation of the authors' intent. Please see: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jagged 85. That's an old and archived RfC. The point is still valid though, and his contribs need to be doublechecked. --Knight1993 (talk) 16:40, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevance
The statement "The occupation of Persia by Muslim Arabs in the 7th century had exposed the Arab invaders to the richness of the Persian way of life, including music" in the beginning of the "Historical context/early life" section is irrelevant to the subsequent text and doesn't serve the purpose of the article, especially since Ziryab's origins are disputed (African vs. Persian vs. Kurdish). I will remove it unless its justified. --Modi mode (talk) 14:22, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

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 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20150607005756/http://www.zamanfrance.fr:80/article/ziry%C3%A2b-l%E2%80%99homme-qui-r%C3%A9volutionna-l%E2%80%99art-de-vivre-europ%C3%A9en to http://www.zamanfrance.fr/article/ziry%C3%A2b-l%E2%80%99homme-qui-r%C3%A9volutionna-l%E2%80%99art-de-vivre-europ%C3%A9en
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20080516214332/http://www.florilegium.org/files/FEASTS/Andalusan-Fst-msg.html to http://www.florilegium.org/files/FEASTS/Andalusan-Fst-msg.html
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