Talk:Zodiac/Archive 1

NPOV
This page lacks the balance of the astrology entry and presents articles of faith and belief as accepted fact. In addition, there is some duplicated information in the zodiac and astrology entries. I wonder if someone might take a crack at balancing this article in a respectful manner? Jokestress 20:50, 25 December 2004 (UTC)

Changes
Cleanudyfaeygudfastcvawetcfeawtcewytcft who made the anonymous changes (I forget to login all the time), then please provide some substantive points of disagreement here. Don't just change the article or revert. You mention below that you want more adherence to Ptolemy. However, I'm the one that added The Almagest to the list of references and I drew my work here primarily from that (and the other references I added). Please simply state your objections to my revisions and I'm sure we can come to an agreement on the content. I welcome and value your input. And I hope you do the same for me. --Cplot 18:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Since no one has responded regarding the cleanup badge added anonymously, I took the liberty of removing it. --Cplot 06:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It was not me, but I do agree that this article needs a lot of cleanup, it is too wordy and repeating itself again and again. Also I find the term tropical longitude and sidereal longitude quite unlucky. Both are only used in connection with time: tropical year and sidereal year. At least in astronomy, but maybe astrologers have a different opinion about it. Are these names mentioned somewhere in literature or do you have invented them yourself? Anyway I would suggest the following setup:
 * Define tropical longitude as measured from the vernal equinox, therefore shifting among the stars, used by the ancients and named after the 12 zodiacal signs, equal to ecliptic longitude.
 * Define sidereal longitude as measured from the fixed stars, like the Indian tradition. Explain that there is no natural zeropoint, and as such different authors will come with different choices. Those choices can be explained and compared (and cited).
 * Alternatively (even better I think as you can do away with those longitude names) you can leave this zodiac article with traditional western zodiac (vernal equinox based), and move the other (fixed stars based) into the sidereal astrology article. --Tauʻolunga 09:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Astronomers use galactic coordinates when they need a coordinate system that doesn't change with precession, such as for stars. On the other hand, ecliptic coordinates are used mainly for solar system objects. There is no term "sidereal longitude" in astronomy because galactic longitudes already satisfy this need.


 * You understood the terms precisely. I think this speaks well for the coherence of the article (at least with the sample size of 1 :-). I'd welcome the addition of some clarification on the use of those terms, though I had thought it was self evident from the overall discussion in the article.


 * As for the removal of the sidereal verses tropical coordinate system, I would be opposed to that. The sources for that are cited inline and referenced below. And since the zodiac coordinate system is one of the few known sidereal systems ever used, I think it's important to keep it in there. It certainly doesn't belong in an article on astrology since it's a discussion of astronomical concepts (as the split between astronomy and astrology is understood today).

Latest changes
I did a reversion and thought I should explain it here. I've been working hard at making the rest of the article consistent with my new research on the celestial coordinate system. Andrew Homer, the deletions you were making were undermining that work. I think we should take up the issues here on the discussion page before simply deleting mine or anyone else's work. In making my edits I've meticulously tried to preserve everyone else's work: only deleting as a last resort when I couldn't make it fit with the rest of the article. I would appreciate the same treatment for my work. I feel your edits were made without first digesting the significant changes elsewhere in the article. --Cplot 07:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I reworked the images of the equinox moving through the zodiac over time. I added images from 1500 BC to 2500 AD using StarryNight and the definition of the sidereal zodiac in the Parker (2004) reference. I think this helps visualize the difference between the two systems, though it could probably use some more explanation. --Cplot 21:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The term "sidereal zodiac" is an oximoron. There are Zodiac Signs which are clearly defined. Then there are fanciful Star Constellations with ambiguous boundaries with the "constellations" arbitrarily added or subtracted in different sky maps by different astronomers throughout the centuries. Let's shadow box, shall we? StarryNight seems to serve the helpful function of pulling some types away from social functions. Andrew Homer 05:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Quote: "ambiguous boundaries with the 'constellations' arbitrarily added or subtracted in different sky maps by different astronomers throughout the centuries". <-- As an astronomer, I know that this statement is not true. The number of contellations as well are their boundaries are officially fixed by convention as defined by the IAU in 1930. Boundaries are based on RA and Dec lines and universally accepted by astronomers.

More on Sidereal Tropical divergence
OK, I did some looking into this. The article cited on the Definition of the Babylonian Zodiac describes the early definition of the signs as selecting two bright stars Aldebaran and Antares to serve as zodiac pole in the midpoints (15°) of the signs Taurus and Scorpius respectively. According to NASA's coordinate converter those stars are at 69.789186° and 249.762298° Ecliptic Longitude in the (J2000) coordinates. Since we're speaking roughly let's just use 70° and 250° for simplicity. That means Aries would begin at 25° Ecliptic Longitude. The star HIP7243 (24.613318° Ecliptic Longitude) crosses the vernal equinox around 194AD. That means for Ptolemy the tropical and sidereal zodiac (as defined in this perfectly reasonable and often cited fashion) were almost identical over the course of his observations (125AD to 150AD). The assumption that Ptolemy preferred a tropical zodiac is based on the presumption that when Ptolemy says "the first point in Aries" he must not mean the first point in the sidereal sign Aries but instead the vernal equinox. To me that needs some citation from Ptolemy explaining that he's going to define this term to mean something it hasn't ever meant before him. Why wouldn't he just write the vernal equinox if that's what he meant; he uses the term vernal equinox liberally throughout the Almagest.

Another suggestion, perhaps we should add a note to the table indicating the tropical coordinates are equal to sidereal coordinates for the year circa 194AD. We also might want to add a column indicating the rough sidereal sign boundaries in J2000 ecliptic coordinates. Aries 25°, Taurus 55°, Gemini 85°, Cancer 115°, Leo 145°, Virgo 175°, Libra 205°, Scorpius 235°, Sagitarius 265°, Capricorus 295°, Aquarius 325° and Pisces 355°. BTW this also means that the 2000 divergence is 25° or about 25 days on the calendar and not the 39.5 days mentioned in the article. A shift of tropical of 39° does not maintain a ccorrespondence with the constellations.like the boundaries listed above. --Cplot 07:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Astrology is astrology. Astronomy is astronomy. Proving that you've taken astronomy classes doesn't mean you're qualified to make comments in an Astrology article. Go over to the Astronomy article & windbag there. Andrew Homer 22:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Historical origin example
I think it's good t have an example here, but this seems incorrect. Under any relevant epoch I can't figure out how Altair could be in Scorpius. Perhaps I'm making a mistake here. The zodiacal signs remained in use as the basis of an ecliptic coordinate system throughout the Middle Ages, replaced by equatorial coordinate systems in Early Modern times. Thus, Hermannus Contractus in his de mensura astrolabii liber gives the locations of stars in stereographic projection for the construction of an astrolabe, for example giving the ecliptic coordinate of Altair (Altahir vel Abiatra) as 14. Scorpius, equalling an ecliptic longitude of 223° (the 14th degree from the beginning of Scorpius at 210°).

Altair is in the constellation Aquila. When projected onto the zodiac constellations that puts it in Capricorn (the constellation, but not necessarily the sign). For the 1000 epoch it's just over 2 full signs from the vernal equinox. So that would put it in Capricorn (counting to 3: Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn). For the 2000 epoch it's still in Capricorn. Anyway there's no source there to check on this. It could be some sort of vandalism, but if so, it's amazingly subtle. Any thoughts? --Cplot 05:15, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Well from my other work deciphering the coordinate system I think I' ve found the answer to my question. The star is wrong. It should read Antares and not Altair. From the coordinates I laid out above Antares is at 224.76° or just shy of 15 Scorpius in 14 Scorpius. So I'll make the correction in the article.--Cplot 12:17, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Angels of the zodiac
I merged and redirected the article Angels of the zodiac into this page. I don't know anything about the actual information but I assume it to be valid; if not then it can be removed entirely. Paul 17:24, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

There are NO angels of the Zodiac. That's complete hog swallow. Andrew Homer 20:51, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * let's remove this then. dab (ᛏ) 11:04, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Planets of the Zodiac
What Zodiac Sign do each of the planets represent? --User:Angie Y.

Modern Rulerships (by California Astrologers in the 1970s: Joyce Wehrman, Zip Dobyns, Lois Rodden, etc) - - Aries: Mars - Taurus: Persephone (Transpluto) - Gemini: Mercury - Cancer: Moon - Leo: Sun - Virgo: Ceres, Pallas Athene, Juno, Vesta (Asteroids discovered in 1801) - Libra: Venus - Scorpio: Pluto - Sagittarius: Jupiter - Capricorn: Saturn - Aquarius: Uranus - Pisces: Neptune. Andrew Homer 22:25, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

cleanup
I made some major edits to the article. It seemed to needlessly 'debunk' the zodiac (insisting that the constellations are just apparent by projection on the celestial sphere etc.). The zodiac was a serious coordinate system in Hellenism, and Ptolemy was no fool. It is now superceded by the RA/Dec coordinate system, but that doesn't make it less serious, it is just makes it a historical astronomical coordinate system. Of course its associations are mostly with astrology now, but the opposition of astrology and astronomy is modern, while the zodiac is not. There can well be a section of specifically astrological significance of the zodiac, but first and foremost, this is an article about astronomy in Hellenism. dab (ᛏ) 11:04, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


 * the article as I found it was rife with misconceptions, and the precession of the equinoxes was explained, with varying lucidity, about half a dozen times. I hope I have cleaned it up into encyclopedic shape, cleanly separating "signs" and constellations, and straightforward issues of celestial coordinates in Greek astronomy from mystical or astrological notions (which should be confined to the astrology section). There remain a number of unsourced statements. dab (ᛏ) 12:04, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Ophiuchus
I have restored Ophiuchus to the table otherwise there is a mysterious gap in the passage of the Sun between November 30th and December 18th. I have shown it as not being a part of either the tropical or sidereal zodiac systems of co-ordinates. An encyclopaedia should not try to paper over awkward inconsistencies, but describe the situation and then give the best explanation we can. Lumos3 17:47, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

You're seriously confused. This is an article about Zodiac Signs NOT arbitrary Star Constellations. Different terms, different definitions. Ophiuchus has NOthing to do with Astrology. Andrew Homer 05:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that we should not discuss Ophiuchus or any of the actual consellations here, because that's simply offtopic. In fact, there is a missing citation at Sidereal_astrology explaining who this "small number of astrologists" using the 1930 IAU boundaries really are. If no citation is brought forward, the "The 13 astronomical constellations of the ecliptic" and "The 21 zodiacal constellations of the planets" should be removed there also for having nothing whatsoever to do even with "sidereal astrology" (let alone mainstream astrology or Ptolemy's zodiac). dab (ᛏ) 07:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

No this is an article about an historic astronomical coordiate system of the heavens that is still used today by astrologers. Its relationship to the actual heavens and coordiates in use today are very relevanr. Lumos3 08:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * the history of the system is relevant. Explain how you think this relates at all to the 1930 IAU constellation boundaries? Yes, we can discuss the reference to Ophiuchus by Ptolemy. Cite where Ptolemy mentions Ophiuchus, and we'll discuss that reference. Your dates are still irrelevant, because Ptolemy certainly didn't have the 1930 IAU constellation boundaries at his disposition. dab (ᛏ) 09:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not claiming that Ophiuchus is part of any Zodiac system, but to understand the zodiac systems and how they relate to the actual movement of the sun against the background of stars, as is described in the table, we need to refer to Ophiuchus. I have adjusted the table heading to better reflect this. Lumos3 14:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

If you bothered to study Astronomy, you would know that Zodiac Signs have NO relevance. If you bothered to study Astrology, you would know that Star Constellations have NO relevance. (But stars, INDIVIDUALLY, do.) Just because you're confused doesn't mean anyone else is. As they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Andrew Homer 08:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * now let us be reasonable. The constellations (not signs) have the relevance of being the namesakes of the signs. They were picked by the Chaldean astronomers in 700 BC or so for being near their 12 partitions of the ecliptic. The entire point of this partition is to divide the yearly course of the sun into twelve equal parts, the stars have nothing to do with it. Today, the signs remain named after the constellations by pure convention, with no direct connection, but the connection exists of course historically. Either way, Ophiuchus is entirely irrelevant to the whole debate. The only interesting point would be Ptolemy mentioning Ophiuchus as being irrelevant, so please provide that quote. Otherwise it's just entirely irrelevant to discuss movement of the sun relative to the background stars altogether in this article: The zodiac is about movement of the Sun relative to the celestial equator, not the stars. dab (ᛏ) 08:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

My understanding of the zodiac is that it is drawn from the constellations as dab, you say. However it's not only due to established convention, but also the loss and lapse of practicing astrologists that explain both the tropic zodiac and the missing zodiac sign (I'm using the term deliberately): Ophiucus. The tropical zodiac merely cofies astrological observations as they were for the ancient astrologers. In other words it gives up on their method in order to imagine their time-sensitive results are instead eternal. Though these ancient astrologers didn't use the same concept of consteallations as that introduced in 1930, the 1930 mapping clearly was meant to reflect the ancients' work.

If the zodiac is divided into twelve signs before astronomers/astologers are aware of precession (as it was) then it's not surprising that the previous twelve regions will become 13 regions as sooon as precession occurs long enough. Eventually one constellation could fall out of the zodiac, returning it to 12, but there's no guarantee. Alternatively, the boundaries of the regions (both zodiac signs and constellations because constellations were just as important to the ancient astrologers) could be stretched and shrunk to maintan 12 signs, but otherwise the constallations passing in and out of the zodiac will change as will the stars and the signs (at lease I think that's how Ptolemy would have seen it, though I never met him). And Andew Homer, stop saying do your homework; that's only the mantra of someone who's got nothing else to say. --Cplot 00:41, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

On second thought I can't think of any reason why precession should change or widen the constellations crossing the vernal equinox (something I read said it did), though maybe I'm missing something. Though I still stand behind what I wrote on the tropical zodiac. It makes sense that the Hindu astrologers would maintain the sidereal zodiac since the practice of astrology did not lose favor as it did in the west. --Cplot 07:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Some clarifications. First of all, Ptolemy recognised the constellation of Ophiuchus AND he recognised that it contained the sun during the year - see the Wikipedia article on Ophiuchus for more information. Second, this article isn't about Astrology - it is about the Zodiac, and astronomers also use the term "Zodiac" to describe a particular region of the sky - a region that most definitely contains Ophiuchus. Not only that, but astronomers also refer to a planetary zodiac that contains 21 constellations - therefore those constellations are also fair game to be discussed in an article entitled "Zodiac". Of course, the article needs to distinguish between the different usages (and users) of the term "Zodiac". But, just because the most common meaning of "Zodiac" is "twelve equally-spaced divisions of the path of the sun across the sky" doesn't mean that the other meanings of Zodiac shouldn't be discussed. Chrisobyrne 16:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Further clarifications: There are NO other meanings of the word "Zodiac." The particular region in the sky that a Zodiac Sign pertain to is along the ecliptic and NO where else. You continually get sloppy with the distinct definitions for Zodiac Sign vs. Star Constellation. What is your motivation? Do you really think you'll reverse an issue more than a millennium old? Andrew Homer 08:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * As you may have guessed, I am an astronomer and, as an astronomer, I have been using the word "Zodiac" to mean "that belt of the sky either side of the ecliptic" (I believe the belt is usually considered to be 8 degrees either side of the ecliptic). I also understand that "Zodiac" means "the collection of 12 astrological signs". So, how am I mistaken in believing that there are (at least) two definitions of "Zodiac"? Am I mistaken in believing that "Zodiac" means "the collection of 12 astrological signs"?


 * It may be helpful to both of us if I wrote out some of the definitions as I understand them, and you can correct them as per your understanding -


 * "Ecliptic" - the path of the sun through the sky
 * "Constellation" - a collection of stars in the sky, usually considered to have a pattern to them. Astronomically speaking, a constellation is a delimited area of the sky (i.e. astronomers have drawn borders around the constellations)
 * "Astrological sign" - a name given to a period of time, where there are 12 equally-spaced such periods in a year, and where the first one starts at the spring equinox.
 * "Zodiac" (astronomy) - the part of the sky 8 degrees either side of the ecliptic, which intersects 13 (count 'em!) constellations
 * "Zodiac" (astrology) - the collection of the 12 astrological signs.


 * (Note - the names of the astrological signs are the same as the names of 12 of the 13 constellations of the (astronomical) Zodiac).


 * So where am I going wrong in believing that there is more than one meaning of the word "Zodiac"? Chrisobyrne 11:32, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Sidereal v Tropical; Coordinate System v. Astrological Significance

 * I don't think you understand the point. At least you don't seem to make a lot of sense. Try to read through the precession articles again. The idea that the zodiac partition has a direct connection to the background stars is a misunderstanding. But it is a common misunderstanding, which notably Hindu astrology fell victim to. Today, Hindu astrologists appear to be proud to have stuck to the "original" (AD 300, when they adopted it) system, while they have just missed the point of the system. It is misleading to speak of "tropical zodiac": the zodiac is fundamentally "tropical", that's its whole point. The "sidereal" zodiac arises from such misunderstandings, and "tropical zodiac" is simply a retronym to refer to the original system to prevent confusion. Anyway, the zodiac is only really relevant for discussing ancient and medieval astronomy and has been replaced by less confusing coordinate systems in early modern times. Of course "astrology" still works with the zodiac, but that's mostly for effect and deliberate obfuscation: since astrologists do whatever they want anyway, it doesn't really matter whether they understand the system. For discussion of ancient science, however, it is crucial to have a clear understanding of the terms. dab (ᛏ) 12:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I understand precession. I'm trying to understand your view. You seem to think of the zodiac signs as merely useful as a coordinate system. If so than why does it matter what day of the year one associates with that zodiac sign? As a coordinate system the tropical and sidereal systems work the same right? As an astrological tool they work differently. And since the Hindu's have practiced asdtrology continuously since ancient times whereas, in the west it was mostly lost and resurected, why do you think the Hindu's are the ones who are confused? Or maybe more to the point, why do you care if you think the zodiac signs merely serve as a cooredinate system? --Cplot 07:39, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Sidereal astrologers still divide the zodiac into 12 equally sized regions, they have just shifted the origin of the system so that each 30 degree segment approximately aligns with the constrellation of the same name. They do not use IAU defined constellations. The inclusion of Ophiuchus in this article is only to allow comaparison between the 3 sytems of tropical zodiac, sidereal zodiac and modern sky maps. Lumos3 14:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Aries was defined to mark vernal equinox. The Hindus have tied Aries to some random star, and performed the impressive feat of continuously watching that star for 1700 years. So that now their Aries begins at some random point of the ecliptic, and vernal equinox lies at some random point of their coordinate system. That's an impressive amount of zeal and diligence, and an impressive lack of asking for the reason why you are doing things. Ptolemy could have told them they shouldn't do that.
 * The important thing is that the zodiac is a coordinate system both in astronomy and astrology. Astrology uses it to describe the positions of the planets at a certain point of time. Then astrology goes on to make claims of all sorts of meanings derived from these positions. The zodiac in this process simply serves as a means of expressing positions, you could perfectly well do the exact same horoscope using rectascension and declension, the kooky thing is how they arrive from the positions at the predictions, not in how they describe the positions themselves. "Zodiac" has a bad ring to it today because it is only used for such nonsense anymore, but at the time of its inception, it was a perfectly valid and scientific coordinate system, nothing more, and nothing less. dab (ᛏ) 17:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Dab, I think you're misunderstanding it as a coordinate system. It's not simply a coarser version of celestial longitude, but instead treats the zodiac signs as the fixed reference point with which to measure other things (as opposed to celestial longitude where the vernal equinox is fixed and bodies are measured in reference to it). So in the zodiac system of coordinates it makes sense to ask what position the vernal equinox is in. Whereas in celestial longitude that doesn't really tell us much since the vernal equinox always is at 0° because that's the fixed point by definition. As a parallel it would be like asking the position of aries in the zodiac sign coordinate system. Well it happens to be in aries. The difference beteween tropical and sidereal then (not as coordinate systems but astrologically speaking) is just one of mapping those zodiac signs (or constellations but not necessarily IAU consetllations) to the months of the year (whether moon monthls of the tropical year or the Ptolemeic months of the Great year). Since as a coordinate system this mapping (to the months) is irrelevant I don't see why you feel so strongly about it. --Cplot 07:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * what nonsense, Aries is fixed at equinox in the zodiac. It is of course not fixed in the "Sidereal zodiac", refer to sidereal zodiac if you are interested in that. dab (ᛏ) 20:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

ə

Why is it nonsense then? My point is simply that as a coordinate system, the zodiac can fix the stars or it can fix the equinox. For most of it's existence the zodiac fixed the stars (hence the names of the signs derrived from constellations). One guy (Ptolemy; single-source anyone?) comes along and reverses that. For Ptolemy though, the origina of Aries happened to fall quite close to the equinox and there's not necessarily any difference between the sidereal and the tropical zodiac for that epoch. However,the subsequent reversal of the coordinate system is part and parcel of a devotion to supposedly his geocentric conception, in that the Earth's equinox was fixed and the heavens moved around the earth. Prior to late mideival interpretations of Ptolemy, the coordinate system held to the fixing of the stars and the movement of the Sun and the Earth through the fixed heavens. When astronomy's practice resumed in the West it adopted a fixed star coordinate system (right ascension) like the sidereal zodiac. There's also a move back toward fixed equinox in the celestial longitude and latitude system. Then another move toward heaven centered coordinates with the galactic coordiantes (probably better referred to as soloar coordinates). So the nonsense is to admit that this is aribtary, but then claim that the only way to do it arbitrarily is to fix the equinox and measure the moon, planets, sun and other stars relative to that And all this talk of an equinox fixed coordinate system (which in terms of astronomy is just one of the ways of doing it and one of several ways in which it was done) is just a disguise to either promote some bizarre neo-ptolemeic geo-centrism or to create a fixed mapping of the zodiac to the months of the year to make the job of newspaper publisher's easier (becuse then they can easily publish recyled horoscopes over ages and ages:-).

To me this article should describe the zodiac as the cirlce of animals, talk about how it can serve as a geo-centric or celestial centric coordinate system and talk about how astrologers would use the information about the position of the planets (relative to the fixed stars as in sidereal zodiac or relative to the fixed equinox as in tropical zodiac). There's no need for us to take a position or settle age old questions of which is the proper way to understand the position of the heavens or the meaning of events here on earth.--Cplot 01:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * ah, but that's where you are wrong. The zodiac did not "for most of its existence mark the stars". It was tied to the equinoxes from the beginning. It's just that it was only after some 400 years that precession of the equinoxes was even discovered, before that, it was naturally assumed that equinox was stationary wrt background stars: The zodiac was introduced in ca. the 6th century BC by the Chaldeans. It was adopted by the Greeks, say in the 4th c. BC. In the 2nd c. BC, Hipparchus discovers the precession of the equinoxes, but people stick with the system of calling the 30 deg segment of vernal equinox "Aries". In the 2nd c. AD, Ptolemy gives an account of the whole system, still sticking with Aries=vernal equinox. In the 4th c. AD, the Hindus adopt the system, and tie it to the background stars (viz., that is not the original system, but a Hindu innovation). Hindu and Greek zodiac drift apart over the following centuries. In the 17th c. or so, western astronomy drops the system altogether, and it survives only in esotericism. dab (ᛏ) 09:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

So you're saying you think our job here is to settle these different points of view in the anthropological record rather than write an ecnycolpedia article? My understanding of this is quite different. I see little evidence of a tropical zodiac except in Ptolemy. Not even Keplar, Nostradomus seem to use a tropical zodiac (though I imagine Tycho probably does). There certainly evidence both ways on this. I don't understand why (since you think this is mostly escoteric) you feel so strongly about this geocentric view? --Cplot 13:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

what different points of view? what "anthropological record"? I have outlined a historical process above, not a controversy. AFAIK, zodiac means "tropical", except in Hinduism and in recent (20th c.) "reconstructions". You seem to think otherwise. Provide your references, then. I don't see how Kepler or Nostradamus tie into this, but if you have evidence that they, against Ptolemy, came up with a sidereal interpretation, by all means, explain yourself. I would obviously welcome new insights, although Kepler can hardly be said to be closer to the system's inception than Ptolemy. dab (ᛏ) 13:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Will Dbachmann please supple a reference for the assertion that Hindus adopted a sidereal approach only in AD 300. My understanding is that Hindus practised astronomy as well as astrology and kept their practise in step with actual sky objects as everyone had done before them. Western astrologers in the Middle ages stopped observing and based their practise on ancient texts without reference to the real word. Some progressive western astrologers have recently tried to do a catching up exercise but most still do not even understand there is a problem. There is plenty of evidence of sidereal horoscopes before AD300, see http://www.skyscript.co.uk/sidereal2.html Lumos3 15:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I cannot take seriously an article debating the question of which system is more 'effective'. What do they mean by 'effective'? We are here debating which systems were in use at what point, and not if you will capture my destiny with any more accuracy if you draw up either my tropical or my sidereal horoscope. Also, to debate whether "tropical zodiacs were in use before or after Hipparchus" is nonsense. Before the precession of the equinoxes was discovered, there was no known difference between the systems. I also fail to make sense of your question. If "Western astrologers in the Middle ages stopped observing", how is it that the Western zodiac is 2500 years out of tune with the constellations rather than a mere 1000 or so? I am sorry, but you really seem to lack basic understanding of the matter. dab (ᛏ) 15:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

DAB your dates are off there. As far as I can tell Ptolemy's coordinates (one of the only surviving works used by those resurecting astrology in the West) pretty much corresponds to the coordinates used by the modern tropical astrologers. The divergence is from Ptolemy's cataloguing of the stars and constellations. While there's no decisvive indication of a tropical zodiac in Ptolemy, that's how he was read by some (though I insist the big Western astrologers did not make that mistake, that's why I brought up Nostradomus and Kepler). I can understand why one might adhere to a tropic calendar year, but a tropical coordinate system is unduly cumbersome and a tropical astrology is bizaarre. That's my point of view, but I think the article should be written adhering to the NPOV guideline.

Also, I just took a fresh look at The Almagest with this issue in mind and now I don't even think Ptolemy subscribes to your view of a tropical zodiac. When constructing his spherical model of the heavens, Ptolemy says: "Since it is not reasonable to mark the solsitial and equinoctial points on the actual zodiac of the globe (for the stars depicted [on the globe] do not retain a constant distance with respect to these points), we need to take some fixed starting-point in the delineated fxied stars. So we mark the brightest of them namely the star in the mouth of Canis Major [sirius]..." (emphasis is mine; brackets are translators insertions). So Ptolemy's response to the issue of precesion is that the zodiac moves through the equinox and also he makes it clear he understands that the equinox moves through the zociac. But he's insistant that the constellations matter. In fact he organizes his catalogue by constellation moving from the northern celestial pole through the constellations of the zodiac to toward those in the southern celestial hemisphere.

Also, I notice a marked shift in his thinking from Book Vii where he discusses precession with a very geocentric view to a much less greocentric view after he finishes cataloging over 1,000 heavenly bodies. Before he speaks of the equitorial and ecliptic plains as being fixed to the Earth (i.e., for him then The Universe). He says: "the sphere of the fixed stars also performs a motion of its own in the opposite direction to the revolution of the universe, that is [the motion of] the great circle through both poles, that of the equator and that of the ecliptic." Of course Ptolemy has no idea that these two planes are not even fixed in relation to one another but vary over a period of 10s of thousands of years.

So it's possible to read in Ptolemy's geocentric vision of the universe a tropic zodiac, but from his consturction of the celestial spherical model he adheres vehemently to a sidereal zodiac. So I think we need to reowrk the article to reflect the actual understandings of the zodiac with references and not just assert a particular POV with no support whatsoever (which is the current state of this article). Cplot

We are not trying to establish the truth of tropical over sidereal
We are not trying to establish the truth of tropical over sidereal or visa versa. This is Wikipedia. We are aiming to describe both ( and any other ) systems in a fair way that believers in those systems would agree with plus describe any criticism they may have for each other. Wikipedia does not aim to find one objective truth but to describe the landscape in which conflicting ideas exist. Remember we strive for articles that advocate no single point of view. see Neutral point of view Discussions on this page which aim to prove one is right and the other wrong are fruitless and an abuse of the Wikipedia discussion page which should be used to improve the article. Lumos3 19:36, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * what "truth"? It is entirely a matter of definition. The "sidereal zodiac" historically arose from a misunderstanding of the zodiac, and is duly treated at sidereal zodiac. Where is the problem? dab (ᛏ) 20:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The word "sidereal" refers to stars. The word "zodiac" refers to an even division of the ecliptic by 12 SIGNS.  Constellations are completely arbitrary and thus have NO boundaries.  To use the phrase "sidereal zodiac" reveals someone who knows neither Astrology nor astronomy.  Andrew Homer 20:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The Zodiac article describes all zodiac systems including chinese etc. Other articles describe individual systems. Lumos3 14:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * "Zodiac" is a Greek term and refers to the Hellenistic system. I don't know if "Zodiac" means anything in Chinese, but it certainly isn't Chinese for "circle of animals". "Chinese Zodiac" may be a term coined to compare a Chinese system with the Greek Zodiac, but that sure as hell doesn't make the term "Zodiac" refer to the Chinese system. dab (ᛏ) 17:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, zodiac is an English term. It may have been derived from a Greek term but its meaning has changed since then. I just did a Google search for "chinese zodiac" and found tons of references. Bryan 20:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Did any of those profound references mention that the Chinese sequence of the 12 "zodiac" months START with the Aquarian New Moon? A good place for you newbies to start getting serious about Astrology:  http://www.AndrewHomer.Com/Astrology.html  - Andrew Homer 01:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not addressing those details. I was merely pointing out that "zodiac" is indeed used to refer to the Chinese system too. Bryan 06:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

mnemonic and what needs citing
Dbachmann, I don't feel particularly strongly about the mnemonic poem for remembering the order of the signs. However, it's not a random poem. It's clearly a mnumonic poem for recalling the order of the signs in an artilce about he zodiac signs. Because the source of it is lost that is no reason it cannot be in the article. And my guess is the original source for the poem is entirely lost so placing [citation needed] next to it is pointless. It's also the kind of information that is self-evident. It would be like putting [citation needed] next to the assertion 2+2 = 4. Yes there are all osrts of esoteric debates about the meaning of that asertion, but ibn most contexts it can simply be asserted without attribution or further appeals to authoirty. On the other hand most of the articles I see on WP are filled with assertions that do require support or attribution. Typically everyone involved simply ignores the fact because presumably someone else will track iit down or they all want the information to remain in there despite it's lack of citation..

So anyway back to the current mnumonic. What's your gripe about placing a mnumonic poem to help remember the signs of the zodiac in an article about the signs of the zodiac? --Cplot 19:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The mnemonic poem is irrelevant, without a source, your grandmother could have composed it. But, Jesus Christ, what did you mess up a perfectly good article for? It's a horrible mess now. I am afraid I will have to revert most of your recent activity. dab (ᛏ) 17:51, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

you know what, it is enough work to write a decent article without people tearing stuff down as you write it. The present intro is a bad joke. It is painfully evident that the article was tampered with by people with no idea of what they are talking about. The only redeeming features are the things that you condescended to leave intact. If you play fair and return to citing Ptolemy and improving citations, the article may benefit. If you insist on turning it into meaningless blather, I won't stop you, because I waste enough time on Wikipedia already without indulging in such nonsense. dab (ᛏ) 18:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Sidereal versus Tropical; Sign versus Constellation, Astronomy versus Astrology
My main reason for beginning this heading is to try to understand Andrew Homer's objections to the articlee &mdash; which from the tone of recent comments here, &mdash; these objections seem merely based on wanting the article to only reflect one POV (that of tropical astrologers). Let me try to separate these distinctions along several axes to help make the discussion clearer and resolve this dispute.


 * Astronomy v Astrology


 * Both fields use (or used) the conecpt of a zodiac. Astronomy specifically as a celestial coordinate system and then astrology which uses the coordinate system specifically for divinitory purposes (there may be others, but I just want to draw out some initial distinction).


 * Sign versus contellation


 * Both represent an arbitrarily defined region of the celestial sphere. However, a sign represents a 30° segment of the 16°wide band centered on the ecliptic called the zodiac. (though the precise number of 16° may be disputed; that's not my concern at the moment)  Constellations vary in their dimension. Apart from the sign constellation distinction, there are also many different ways to define the constellations: the IAU being only one way (but again that's not at issue here as far as I can tell.


 * Sidereal versus tropical
 * Here the difference is primarily over the fixed frame of reference for the signs. Are they fixed relative to the Earth's tropical cycle (tropical zodiac signs) or are they fixed relative to the celestial sphere (sidereal zodiac signs)?

Perhaps we should make some of these distinctions more clear in the article itself, but right now I want to understand the dispute. My understaninding of your position, Andrew Homer, is that you want the article to only reflect a sidereal-sign-astrology pov. Is that correct? This clearly violates Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Perhaps there's some other explanation, but I'm hard-pressed to divine what it could be. Please clarify your position.--Cplot 01:10, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


 * BTW,, I created those images specifically to show the equinox moving through the signs (no the constellations). So I'm certain it's a mistake to indicate the constellations. In fact if I wanted to highlight the constellations (especially the IAU constellations) I could have clicked on a checkbox to add those boundaries to the images. However, I specifically wanted to avoid showing those constellations to focus on the sidereal signs. --Cplot 07:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Moving indo-European from lead section
I think I understand the motivvation for moving the Indo-European zodiac discussion from the lead section, to its own section. However, I think there's some problems with doing that. First the thrust of this article really is the Indo-European zodiac with just mention of other similar beliefs originiating in other parts of the World. By moving this to its own section it suggests to the reader to expect more about the other zodiacs (and maybe less about the Indo-European). Second, I think it leaves the lead section rather shallow for many hoping to glean the salient bits of information they're seeking from the article from just the lead section. A more suitable approach may be to promote the subsection on “Other zodiac astrologies” to a higher level and then incorporate summaries from the other supporting articles on astrology and other zodiacs. I'm not all that familiar with the astrology stuff, so I'm afraid I can't offer much else than this suggestion.

If you look at the article's current organization you'll see that every section deals solely with Indo-European zodiac except that single two paragraph subsection on “Other zodiac astrologies”. That's not necessarily a problem with the article, but the lead section should also reflect that thrust. I think its good for the lead section to mention the Chinese zodiac and such: but more as a way to differentiate and shape the understanding of the Indo-European zodiac (i.e., how its similar yet different). Just my thoughts. --Cplot 17:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * there isn't a single shred of evidence for the zodiac being in any way "Indo-European". Much to the contrary, the Greek themselves admit it is "Chaldean". The term "Indo-European" has simply no place here. dab (ᛏ) 08:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Dab, Indo-Euorpean is being used to describe a region of the earth: i.e. Indo-European as opposed to East Asian. Babylonia falls in that region. The zodiac spread from Babylon across the region, but shows strong ties to thosse roots. --Cplot 15:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * is it, now? funny, I have been into Indo-European studies for quite some years now, figure that I should learn this on a Wikipedia talkpage (as opposed from someone who knows their stuff). dab (ᛏ) 20:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Hindu zodiac as the origin for the Greek zodiac
I reverted a change to the Hindu astrology section arguing for the Hindus zodiac as the origin for the Greek zodiac. Many of the sources for the article indiate an influence in the opposite direction. In other words that the Greek Zodiac originates in Babylon, influenced the Greek culture and then traveled to the East. I don't have a strong opinion on it, but I think a change like that which stands opposite to the current sources requires some source citation. My appolgies to the anonymous editor. --Cplot 05:04, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

recent changes
Dab, I changed those changes you made back to the previous version. Overall, it’s hard to see what you’re trying to accomplish with those changes. However, you’re removing references which is not good. And you’re not making the article any more clear with those changes. Perhaps if we discussed what your’re trying to say in the article here we could help you say it. --Cplot 15:30, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't remove any "references". All I removed was your notion of an "Indo-European zodiac", which is utter nonsense. dab (ᛏ) 20:46, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

READ
What happens when the end or beginning date of a sign is changed? Like how Gemini's end date used to be June 20th, but was changed to the 21st...does that mean someone who's birthday was June 21st becomes more Gemini-like after it was changed? I know they're still on the cusp, but does that make them a Gemini/Cancer as opposed to a Cancer/Gemini, as it was before it was changed? Or does it only apply to people born on that date after the change?--Tainted Drifter 10:18, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Someone else may be better able to answer this, but my understanding is that the horoscope is based on your birthday, which remains the same for the year you're born no matter how those dates may shift in other years. When making astrological prognostications, the sign one is in guides what happens. For example, somone born on the cusp of Gemini (near Cander) remains a Gemini through they're whole life: even if their birthday happens to fall in cancer some particular year. However, when trying to determine what happens this year events on that date will be guided by Cancer. I hope that helps answer your question.--Cplot 06:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Source for Zodiac is 'circle of little animals'
Does anyone have a source for there this comes from? I have always seen Zodiac comming from zodiakos and has nothing to do with living creatures. based on the word Zoad meaing a path or way of steps. The animal part is implied incorrectly purely because of the animal figure and connection to the word Zoo but has no basis. I will get sources for this claim but would like to know if sources for the already stated text may have superceeded them.155.144.251.120 05:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * That's been there since before I started editing. I don't think I checked on it. A quick look at my Oxfrod American Dictionary reveals:

"ORIGIN late Middle English : from Old French zodiaque, via Latin from Greek zōidiakos, from zōidion ‘sculptured animal figure,’ diminutive of zōion ‘animal.’"

Hope that helps. --Cplot 06:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Furthermore, the Greek root is ζωη, one of the Greek words for life. Zoo comes from this, too. Zeusnoos 22:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Outline
Here's an outline I propose for reworking the page. I hope to reuse as much of the text already there. Though I do feel the structure need improving and I want to incorporate the discussions we've had on this page. --Cplot 13:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * 1) Historical origin
 * 2) Celestial Coordinate System
 * 3) Tropical v. Sidereal in horoscopes
 * 4) Tropical Zodiac (mythology & tropical astrology)
 * 5) Sidereal Constellations (mythology, pictures, stick-figures)
 * 6) Planetary and moon positions
 * 7) Mnemonic for the zodiac
 * 8) Chinese Zodiac (as it now stands mainly to refer to Chinese Astrology article)
 * 9) Mayan Zodiac
 * 10) See also
 * 11) Notes
 * 12) External links

Andrew Homer 18:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC) & --Cplot 13:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I know of very few western Astrologers who waste their time with arbitrary star constellations & "Sidereal Astrology." The obsession here on Wikipedia appears to be a transparent scheme to set-up a straw-man arguement to promote a bogus paradigm to subsequently debunk legitimate Astrology and Astrologers after the gullible fall for the sidereal hoax. Keep this sidereal silliness in Hindu Astrology where it belongs. Andrew Homer 22:27, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Separation
While the "Zodiac" disambiguation page is clear that there are two main definitions of "zodiac", i.e. in "astronomy" and "astrology", there is only one article attempting to satify the differing demands of both. The current Zodiac article contradicts itself, especially as it crosses this border: the article and one chart indicate 12 divisions (astrology) [Template:WesternZodiac] when another chart (referring to both astrology and astonomy) [Template:Zodiac] lists 13, and could possibly list more constellations that cross the ecliptic.

Why not simply separate the "zodiac" article into two cross-referencing articles" "Zodiac (astronomy)", which should include the celestial referencing guides, and "Zodiac (astrology), which should include the various divination systems? Likewise, sort the very useful charts between the two subjects, then let them resolve confusions by becoming truly different.

This separation is beyond my wiki skill currently, and a lot of discussion is occurring on this subject, so I'd rather get opinions than simply peeve someone. Dab, Andrew, what do you think?

Gary Shannon 22:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. Do not mix astronomical and astrological information, please. --Dejudicibus 12:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

changes so far
I completed the rough reorganization I proposed above. I ended up placing the Chinese Zodiac under "Other zodiac astrologies" subheading under "Zodiac in astrology". So now the outline look thus:


 * 1) Celestial Coordinate System
 * 2) Sidereal verses tropical
 * 3) Advantages and disadvantages (I see this section as a place to highlight the remarkable achievement of this coordinate system even when compared to modern day coordinate systems; anyone wanting to jump in on this, freel free)
 * 4) Zodiac astrology and mythology (the page is particularly weak in this information)
 * 5) Hindu astrology
 * 6) Other zodiac astrologies
 * 7) Historical origin
 * 8) Mnemonic for the zodiac
 * 9) See also
 * 10) Notes
 * 11) External links

I've incorporated information from the old sections into this new structure, where appropriate. Any thought, suggestions, or contributions are welcome. --Cplot 03:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

General
There should be a separate article on Zodiac Signs just to satisfy Homer. And then there should be a separate article on Zodiacal Constellations where astronomers can have their say. Why not let astrologers write about the astrological zodiac and let astronomers write about the astronomical zodiac? Andrew Homer has no business claiming the there is no astronomical meaning of the word zodiac since he is not even an astronomer. The fact is that both astrologers and astronomers use the term, and they use it in very different contexts.


 * Andrew Homer's home page (http://andrewhomer.com/) makes it clear that he is definitely not a scientist. And therefore he is not an authority on what terms are official scientific technical terms and what are not. He can write all he wants about his Zodiac Signs. However he should draw the line and stop talking in behalf of real astronomers.

"actually it crosses a thirteenth, Ophiuchus, but this is traditionally excluded from the list." I see absolutely no need to include Ophiuchus in the list of zodiacal signs, since it's only another arbitrary selection of stars. True as the astronomical fact may be, astrology and its traditions do not depend on constellations. For the purpose of astrology the ecliptic is divided into 12 equal sectors of 30º each whose positions need not correspond exactly with those of the astronomical constelations.

This is an article about Zodiac Signs, not arbitrary constellations. Andrew Homer 21:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Wrong. Zodiac Signs are fixed by culture, while Constellations are fixed by international convention by the International Astronomical Union. Hence, the definition of constellations are authoritative, currently.


 * Correction - it is an article about the Zodiac, not Zodiac signs. And, there is at least one definition of "Zodiac" that encompasses Ophiuchus. Granted it's not the most widely-used definition, but it's still valid, and it should still be included in any comprehensive article about the Zodiac. Chrisobyrne 14:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The term "zodiac" ONLY pertains to zodiac SIGNS. There is NO definition of the  term "zodiac" which pertains to star constellations.  Andrew Homer 10:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Wrong. Astronomers also use the term Zodiac, to refer to a set of constellations crossed by the ecliptic. These constellations are called "Zodiacal Constellations" by astronomers which are not the same as "Zodiac Signs". For astronomers, the term Zodiac refers exclusively to "Zodiacal Constellations". The term Zodiac Signs are meaningless to astronomers.


 * "Constellation" is a technical term used by astronomers to mean one of the 88 regions defined by the International Astronomical Union. Hence it is not arbitrary. I understand you are looking at things from a historical perspective. Similarly, the meaning of the word "planet" used to be arbitrary but today it has a precise definition as stated in the 2006 IAU Definition of Planet.


 * The term "zodiacal constellation" is an oximoron. "Zodiac signs" refers to equal divisions of the ecliptic.  "Constellations" refers to an arbitrary selection of stars.  Andrew Homer 01:38, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Be that as it may, I still object to the removal of Ophiuchus from the table. The rightmost column lists what actual current-day constellations the sun passes through, and removing Ophiuchus from the table either leaves an unexplained gap in the dates or it leaves an outright lie if the dates are adjusted to fill the gap. The text already clearly states that Ophiuchus isn't used in astrological divination, and besides that this article isn't titled "Astrology," it's titled "Zodiac." Bryan Derksen

Constellations are for astronomers. Zodiac signs are for astrologers. Period. Andrew Homer 21:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the misunderstanding stems from the difference between "Zodiac Signs" and "Zodiacal Constellations". As an astronomer, I believe the concept of "Zodiacal Constellations" is important especially in the field of lunar occultation studies, as these events can only occur within the Zodiac (I mean, the astronomical zodiac, not the astrological zodiac). The fact that a ZC catalog exists (http://www.lunar-occultations.com/iota/zcinfo.htm, http://www.skymap.com/zc.htm) shows that the term Zodiac does exist in astronomy and is used for very scientific purposes.

I've added a complete statement to clarify the fact that the signs of the zodiac are not the same as the constelations. I will look later to reconcile what is in Bryan's first paragraph with this without altering his inclusion of Ophiuchus. I also plan to remove some of the more blatantly gratuitous bias in this article. As Bryan has said, this article is about the zodiac rather than about astrology. This means that this is not the place to either support or criticize the practice of astrology. ---user:Eclecticology


 * I am unsure of whether there is disagreement regarding this or whether it is straightforward; the signs are the little symbols and the attached meaning, you are saying the constellations do not necesarrily correspond to these, right? Did they traditionally or how - we need to be quite clear on this as it is a quite natural assumption that constallations and signs with the same names are coupled directly. Is there any controversy in this? Lundse 10:09, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * If you ever bother to study the topic you're criticizing, you'd find that thouroughout history and different cultures, different stars would be arbitrarily bunched to supposedly make some picture. These "constellations" have always been modified, added, or deleted.  The definition for the 12 ZODIAC SIGNS has always remained the same.  Take an astronomy of astrology class, as I have.  Andrew Homer 10:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * This is the reason I am asking, guys. This character has been making rather odd edits and defamed me whereever our paths cross (and told me I know nothing of the subject when I ask about it, which is rather redundant). Anyway, I would like to know (from someone willing to answer questions, you can relax, Andrew) whether this is incontroversial - it seems reasonable enough that the constallations and signs "parted ways" at some point. Can we have more confirmations of it? Lundse 07:16, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * But there haven't always been 12 zodiac signs. Libra, for example, was a relatively late addition to the Zodiac, added by the Greeks and coming well after the original babylonian origins of the Zodiac (hence why the Arabic names for its two brightest stars refer to them as the Scorpion's claws). I've heard that Aries, as well, was added later, being split off from Taurus (hence why Taurus is now only a head and forelegs), which is why early observers considered themselves to be in the Age of Taurus until nearly the age of Pisces. Furthermore, what is the need for this argument? Isn't it fair that since this article is Zodiac, not Zodiac (Astrology) that it include both astrological and astronomical definitions of the Zodiac--and the astronomical definition would certainly HAVE to include Ophiuchus (who himself may have origins back to Babylon, making him no more arbitrary than any of the rest of the Zodiac). I don't see how it hurts astrologers that Ophiuchus is astronomically part of the zodiac--given the astrological zodiac has so little relation to the actual position, location, size and shape of the constellations anyway. Can't we scientists have our Zodiac and you can have yours and they both get mention in the article? --QuantumDriverX 05:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I am in favour of keeping Ophiuchus in there because of the way that it illustrates the point that the zodiacal signs are not the same thing as the constellations. It seems to be a common misconception amongst the general public that the two are somehow related - I'm in favour of doing as much as possible to clear up that misconception. Chrisobyrne 15:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


 * This is an article about zodiac SIGNS. Any reference to the star constellation Ophiucus is NOT irrelevant.  Andrew Homer 10:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I came across a very useful piece about this interloping serpent Ophiucus and its insinuation into the modern Zodiac from an official observatory source -. It might serve as inspiration for the Zodiac page. -- user:JWJM


 * That article is wrong. The sun passed through Ophiuchus as it was recognised by Ptolemy well before the IAU drew up constellation boundaries. See the Wikipedia article on Ophiuchus for more information. I've emailed Griffith Observatory about it, and have received no response. Chrisobyrne 15:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Constellations have never been an inspiration for zodiac signs. Do your homework. Andrew Homer 21:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I've reworked the articles for individual constellations. I standardized them and made a separate astrology section, which mentions "zodiac signs" as opposed to arbitrary "constellations". The article on Aquarius needs more work though. --- Zocky

-

I reworded slightly "tried to use ... for divinatory purposes" to "used". They actually DID use them for divination. Whether or not the divination actually gave useful results is another question. - Montréalais

'':In astronomy, the zodiac is a certain part of the sky which has no intrinsic physical significance, representing simply the region of the sky close to the circle on which the randomly oriented plane of our solar system intersects the celestial sphere. It includes the ecliptic. It is, however, a useful region of the sky to define, because it has practical implications for observations from the earth's surface. A naked-eye observer knows that a bright object lying outside of the ecliptic cannot be a planet. Antarctic observatories cannot easily observe the planets, because the ecliptic is too close to the horizon.

Astronomers didn't agree to use Zodiac signs until 1980. Do your homework. Andrew Homer 21:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * That is not true. Astronomers never agreed to use zodiac signs. However, astronomers have always been using the term Zodiac as a region of the celestial sphere close to the ecliptic.


 * Dating back to the time when there was no clear distinction between astronomy and astrology, the zodiac is traditionally thought of as comprising an exact division of the ecliptic by 12.

The thirteen constellations through which the ecliptic cuts are Leo, Cancer, Gemini, Taurus, Aries, Pisces, Aquarius, Capricornus, Sagittarius, Ophiuchus, Scorpius, and Virgo. (The exclusion of Ophiuchus from the astrological zodiac is on mystical grounds, due to a numerological preference for the number 12, and a belief that 13 was unlucky.)

Thanks for deliberatately obfuscating the issue. But 12 is 12 and 13 is 13, and Tropical Astrologers have ALWAYS used 12 Zodiac Signs. If you bothered to study the topic of Astrology, you'd find "western" astrologers use zodiac signs, not arbitrary clusters of stars. Now, take your arbitrary constellations and run along. Andrew Homer 21:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Homer, please read about the difference between "constellations" and "asterisms".

In modern astronomy, these constellations are recognized as chance groupings of stars, with no natural significance. In fact, they are not even true groupings of stars in three-dimensional space. We see the sky without any perception of its depth, so two stars that appear to be neighbors in the same constellation may actually be separated by vast distances.''


 * If it has no significance, why even bother with the distinction.
 * I didn't say "no significance," I said "no natural significance." -- [User:Bcrowell]


 * Actually it was "no intrinsic physical significance", but whatever it was if it had no significance why would they bother with it at all. -Ec


 * "randomly oriented" plane! I don't think the astronomers would agree with this.


 * My PhD is in physics, not astronomy, although I did quite a bit of undergraduate coursework in astronomy (one course short of a bachelor's degree). It is certainly random; the plane of rotation of the solar system was randomly determined by turbulence in the cloud of gas from which it condensed.-- User:Bcrowell


 * And what's the source for your "cloud of gas" theory for making the plane of the solar system "random"


 * A bright object outside the zodiac isn't a planet for astrologers either.


 * Antarctic astrologers have the same disadvantage as Antarctic astronomers.


 * The point of these examples is to show why there is an astronomical reason for defining such a thing as the zodiac. Astrologers have their own completely different reasons for defining a zodiac. User:Bcrowell


 * It certainly doesn't accomplish that point very well. The gratuitous reference to superstition is nothing more than an inflammatory allegation.


 * "Astrologers have their own completely different reasons for defining a zodiac." - About 1980, the astronomers adapted the same reasoning Tropical Astrologers have been using for 5,000 years. Now, we both use the Sun's position @ the first second of Spring (Aries 00:00) as a reference point along the ecliptic.  Andrew Homer 22:44, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The listing of twelve astronomical constelations is redundant; it's already in a chart later in the article.


 * Astrologers arbitrarily exclude Ophiuchus, so the two lists are different. -- User:Bcrowell

Astrologers ignore Ophiuchus fore a valid reason: it's NOT a Zodiac Sign. Andrew Homer 21:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Not exactly. Ophiuchus was not a part of the zodiac before the International Astronomical Union added it in 1930.  Perhaps you may want to mention the brief passage that the sun makes in Orion, Sextans and Cetus while your at it. Be that as it may the table does include Ophiuchus.  -Ec

Astronomy uses arbitrary star constellations. Western/tropical Astrologers use Zodiac Signs. Calling a star constellation a Zodiac Sign doesn't make it so. Andrew Homer 21:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The "numerological preference" is complete nonsense. Provide a source if you're going to make such a claim. I've added a link on the topic at the bottom, and removed the statement that it was numerological.


 * The constellations didn't become chance groupings to please the modern astronomer; they already were.


 * I didn't say they did.-- User:Bcrowell


 * The different distances are applicable to all stars, not just the ones in the zodiac.


 * Correct. The point is to explain how the astronomical meaning of the zodiac differs from the astrological meaning.-- User:Bcrowell

What "astronomical meaning"??? Andrew Homer 21:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * You are trying very hard to prove that the term Zodiac has no meaning in astronomy. How can you say that when you are not even an astronomer? You talk about attending a class on "astronomy in astrology" but that does not make you an expert in astronomy nor the terms astronomers use. I am an astronomer (taking up my masters degree in astronomy), and I use the term zodiac to refer to a specific region of the celestial sphere in which lunar occultations can occur. You claim that astronomers never used the zodiac before 1980. How come our observatory has records of occultations of stars referenced by their ZC catalog number way back to the 50s? Of course, an astronomer will tell you that Robertson's Zodiacal Catalog was published in 1940 (as mentioned in http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1978nias.book...36K) which is strange if you claim that astronomers only adopted the term in 1980.

That's not accomplished very well. Eclecticology 19:25 Dec 21, 2002 (UTC)

Is there an article on the Chinese zodiac? Each year being represented by a different animal? -- Zoe


 * See chinese astrology. Eclecticology 02:02 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)

Couldn't we just post the information about Ophiuchus, like for the other Zodiac signs, and put a paragraph on how it's title as a Zodiac is contraversal —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.71.63.228 (talk • contribs).


 * This is an article about Zodiac SIGNS, not star constellations. Any reference to the constellations Ophiuchus, Orion, Sextans or Cetus is NOT relevant.  Andrew Homer 10:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it is absolutely necessary to split this article in two articles, an astronomical one, and an astrological one. Both speaking of zodiac, but from two different points of view. Each one should have an historical section, because also from historical point of view there are two different stories. The astrological one may be segmented depending on different kind of astrology, the atsronomical one will be based only on scientific info. --Dejudicibus 12:21, 11 February 2007 (UTC) -

Historical origin
The following moved here as it is more discussion than article. Original by User:Waterman The origins of the zodiac lay in Sumer., where the twelefold division was established. "The twelvefold division of the zodiac was evidently suggested by the occurrence of twelve full moons in successive parts of it in the course of each year," (Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1911) begs the question, for there are ordinatily thirteen new moons in a solar year. The number twelve had to have overwhelming significance. (further text needed here) Lumos3 19:13, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The significance is that in a lunar calendar (in use at the time of the signs of the zodiac's creation), there are exactly 12 new moons and 12 full moons every year. There may be an additional moon in the leap month, but that's outside the 12 moons of the year. --Cplot 00:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Usefulness of link to `Quality'
In the table, the column heading for Quality is linked to the Wikipedia entry for Quality, which provides no useful information on the contents of this column. I would suggest it be unlinked, something I'll do if there's no objection.

Hamish.MacEwan 07:44, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it needs to be unlinked as there apparently is no article on astrological modality. You can do it yourself if you like; I doubt anyone would mind such a minor and purely technical fix. Sam 15:43, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

months?
it does not say what people are like if i say i am augest 27 it should say what i am like a virgo or a cancer or whatever. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.113.202.242 (talk) 01:02, 29 January 2007 (UTC).
 * Under Table of constellations vs. zodiac signs it has sun sign dates. The Sun would be in tropical Virgo on August 27, and Leo sidereally. Sam 01:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Western Zodiac in Popular Culture
I'm not sure that wikipedia have this article yet? I think it would be interesting if we can make a list of them. For Example - Gold Saints from Saint Seiya each of them represent 12 signs of zodiac. - In Final Fantasy XII, the Espers stand for each signs, including Ophiuchus. Sweeti Tooth 14:32, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Question
Is there an NPOV way to say that astrology is bullshit? RobertAustin 21:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 * That is dealt with already in the astrology article. &mdash; Sam 21:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 * No. 129.97.79.144 19:59, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Proposed change to table
Does anyone object if I remove the last three columns on the table about the different systems? They are not directly relevant to the subject of the zodiac and I feel they are confusing to readers by being there. There is already a lot of info in the table to take in without things which are not necessary like elements, qualities and planetary rulership. The information is easily got in the astrological signs article anyway.Neelmack 13:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

What two systems?
The lead paragraph makes no sense.


 * There are two independently-created zodiacs from which the modern Western world derived its understanding of zodiac systems. Babylonian astrology, inherited by astrology, developed the zodiac of twelve signs familiar in the West.

What was the other one? And why do we have "Babylonian astrology, inherited by astrology"?

The language sounds naive, but I can't really fix it unless I have some idea what this user was trying to say. I guess I can at least remove the hyphen in independently-created.

(ocanter)128.114.133.143 (talk) 23:11, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Astrology
After reading through much of the discussion here I see an irony in it. Many here insist that the zodiac only has an astrological dimension and not an astronomical dimension. Yet reading the article it is basically only about the astronomical side (in terms of the coordinate system and the motion of planets and stars). There is very little in the article about the astrological side of the zodiac. The word horoscope does not even appear in the article (though it is in a spam-like external link). In terms of astrology, horoscopes have to be one of the biggest topics related to the zodiac. I know little about that end of things so I cannot help with that, but I will try to improve the astronomical distinctions. I like the idea of strengthening the distinctions raised earlier in the discussion between constellation and sign and also clarifying tropical and sidereal and what is meant by astronomy and astrology. To me the astronomy / astrology distinction treats astronomy as the position and motion of plants and stars and perhaps even naming those celestial bodies. While astrology is more about the divinatory relation between the celestial bodies and our perception of them and the events on Earth. I could probably locate some references on this, but I notice the debate on this page continued without anyone clearly defining how they use those terms. And in the article it says that astronomy has little to do with the zodiac when the rest of the article is entirely about the astronomical dimension of the zodiac and nothing about its astrological focus. Indexheavy (talk) 12:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevant stone info?
Concerning the "Table of constellations vs. zodiac signs": I didn't want to unilaterally remove them, but are "Stones" really relevant, considering the table is simply comparing astronomical vs astrological interpretations of correct dates? Every other column in the table makes sense to have, I don't see why stones do. --Storkk (talk) 01:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The stone info has been on and off the table. I assume that it was added to balance the "Brightest Star in constellation" column. As some kind of NPOV the "Brightest Star in constellation" is astronomical info and "Stones" is astrological info. Both are not that relevant to the comparison of the dates. They could be removed from the table to somewhere else in the article. Readers might want some funny information regarding Bodily fluids, stones, Greek Classical Elements of zodiac signs at a glance. Regards, Necessary Evil (talk) 10:57, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Dates and duration of the signs
"It just isn't possible to give a single set of dates that will be perfectly correct in every year and every time zone with no overlaps, because the signs are not defined by the calendar date."

That's totally right! But! It is possible to give dates approaching the most to a "logical" thinking! As you say, changings of signs don't happen on midnight. That's why i am favorable to give the changing day to both signs, the one before and the one next! Like I did on my new edit of the diagram in the article. I used the ephemerides of the famous book "Astrology" by Julia & Derek Parker, where at the end of the book you can find a double page on the time of change for each sign for the past 100 years! And by "logical" thinking I mean definitely not thinking that 23rd of june belongs to Gemini! You are just 2 days further away of the correct changing date, which is the 21st of june !!! LOL--Boots6666 (talk) 03:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC) I think the dates are wrong for each sign on the Wikipedia page for the signs.... Aries-March 21-April 19, Taurus-April 20-May 20, Gemini-May 21-June 20, Cancer-June 21-July 22, Leo-July 23-august 22, Virgo-August 23-September 22, Libra-September 23-October 22, Scorpio-October 23-November 21, Sagitarius-November 22-December 21, Capricorn-December 22-January 19, Aquarius-Jaunuary 20-February 18, Pisces-February 19-March 20 From:Astrogirl4ever ^-^  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Astrogirl4ever (talk • contribs) 03:19, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

In religion
Hello. The christian Tetramorph refers four animals which are signs along perpendicular zodiacal axis: Leo-Aquarius, Scorpio (Eagle, Phenix)-Ox. These are also related with the four evangelists in several cathedral tympani: Ox-Luke, Lion-Mark, John-Eagle, Matthew-Human (Aquarius). If you find this interesting, use/add it. --Xyzt1234 (talk) 21:14, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Western Bias
These sections are should not be on the general zodiac page. Theses sections are biased towards only the western zodiacs and should be on a separate page for it. It is also missing section for Egyptian zodiac. Thanks for your time, Marasama (talk) 15:32, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * 3 Table of constellations vs. zodiac signs
 * 4 Precession of the equinoxes
 * 5 Zodiac celestial coordinate systems
 * 5.1 Sidereal versus tropical
 * 5.2 The equinox moving through the sidereal signs
 * 5.3 Comparison to modern systems
 * 6 Mnemonics for the zodiac

"zodiac" is the Greek term for the Babylonian zodiac. I am not aware of any "Egyptian zodiac", but if it exists it would probably need an article unto itself. This is the article about the "Greco-Babylonian" coordinate system, as is clearly indicated by the article's (Greek) title. --dab (𒁳) 18:26, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

"Western zodiac"
it is absolutely ridiculous to speak of the "Western zodiac" when the system originates in Babylonian astronomy, in the classical "East". The term "Western zodiac" would only be appropriate if the Greek zodiac was contrasted with its Babylonian template.

There is only the zodiac, which is the Greek term for the Babylonian system as adopted by the Greeks, and via the Greeks the Romans and the Hindus. Other similar systems (Chinese, Maya etc.) are only called "zodiac" in a much looser sense, equating them with the Greek system by whoever is calling them so. --dab (𒁳) 18:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

article cleanup
this article has long been an eyesore -- I've attempted to clean it up a little bit. Apart from the "precession" section, which I left tagged for cleanup, the article in my opinion now addresses the various points properly and in meaningful order.

What is still needed is attention to the historical origins of the Babylonian zodiac. I could only find bits and pieces regarding this. As far as I can figure, there is --dab (𒁳) 12:45, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
 * a Sumerian "Umma calendar", dating to ca. the 21st century BC (reference?)
 * the MUL.APIN, assumed to date to ca. the 12th century BC, which has a sort of "proto-zodiac" in the form of a list of 17 stars along the Moon's path. Notably, most (but not all) of the names of the later zodiacal signs are already present in this list.
 * the Iron Age "Chaldean" or Babylonian calendar (7th to 6th century BC) equivalent to the later Greek zodiac
 * the Greek zodiac is simply an adoption of the Chaldean one, probably in the 5th or 4th century BC, and the Hindu zodiac is a 2nd century BC adoption of the Greek one.
 * finally, there is Ptolemy, in the 2nd century AD, who fixed the astrological stuff relating to the zodiac in "Western astrology".
 * anything medieval or Early Modern will just be based on Ptolemy, until the discovery of "other zodiacs" (Chinese, Maya etc.) in the 18th to 19th century and the New Age boom in the 20th century.


 * I am resarching the history of the zodiac, but there are some differences of opinion. The first appearance of a zodiac consisting of 12 equal signs was in Babylon either in the 5th-century BC or about 400 BC. Most of the signs were the same as the modern zodiac but there were notable differences. Libra was called the "claws of the scorpion" both by Aratus and by Ptolemy, even though "scales" had appeared in Babylon by the second millennium BC. Before the 5th century BC irregular zodiacal constellations or asterisms gradually developed alongside other constellations. Two forms existed, one based on gods and another based on agriculture. The agricultural form disappeared by the first century AD. The oldest zodiacal constellations were the bull, lion, and scorpion which appeared by 3200 BC in Sumeria. A collection of bibliographies is at Hellenistic astrology. Unfortunately, I have not obtained a copy of what Owen Gingerich calls a "brilliant essay" by B. L. van der Waerden, "History of the zodiac", Archiv für Orientforschung 16 (1953) 216–230. So I'm using a more modern source, John H. Rogers, "Origins of the ancient contellations: I. The Mesopotamian traditions", Journal of the British Astronomical Association 108 (1998) 9–28, among others. Modern astronomy still uses astrological coordinates for predicting the positions the Sun, Moon, and planets, except longitude in the ecliptic coordinate system is numbered from 0° to 360°, not 0° to 30° within each sign. Longitude within individual signs was still being used as late as 1740 by Jacques Cassini in his Tables astronomiques. — Joe Kress (talk) 21:26, 30 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I just left a note about procuring source materials, on your talk page.


 * Also, with reference to your mention of Cassini's tables, you might like to notice that the practice about 'signs' in the eighteenth-century tables was to treat a 'sign' as just a superior unit of 30 degrees: this is shown by the presence of this unit also in the tables of increments corresponding to periods of time, and in the tables of angular differences (such as mean anomaly), these usages show that such a 'sign' did not need to begin at any particular place, it was just any arc of 30 degrees, a practice also mentioned as occasionally occurring in ancient times, I think, by O Neugebauer in 'History of Ancient Mathematical Astronomy'. Terry0051 (talk) 11:07, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Another related modern difference is that the IAU (1976) Astronomical Constants implemented in 1984 required the use of Julian years before and after J2000.0, so 360° of ecliptic longitude now means 365.25 SI days—it no longer means vernal equinox to vernal equinox as it did before 1984 when Besselian years were used. I don't have a good reference on this, but refer to usage by J.L. Simon et al. in "Numerical expressions for precession formulae and mean elements for the Moon and the planets", Astronomy and astrophysics 282 (1994) 663–683. Noting that 1296000000" is the number of arcseconds in one Julian millennium or 360°×1000 Julian years, then if the coefficient of the linear term of Earth's longitude of date λ on page 678 is divided into 365.25×1296000000, the J2000.0 length of the mean tropical year is 365.25d×1296000000"/1296027711.03429" = 365.242190402112 SI days, which appears with slightly reduced precision in IERS Useful Constants. — Joe Kress (talk) 01:03, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

"either in the 5th-century BC or about 400 BC" doesn't sound that incompatible to me. But, there was no "Babylonia" in the 5th century BC. After 539 BC, Mesopotamia was just a province of the Achaemenid Empire. It seems much more credible to me that the zodiac was developed during the Neo-Babylonian renaissance in the 7th to 6th century, as the article attributes to Powell (2004). I am interested in your claim that Ptolemy didn't call Libra "The Scales". Whose term is Ζυγός then?

Your Rogers reference is extremely valuable for Babylonian zodiac, I'll try to work through it.

One of the main problems of Wikipedia's coverage of these topics is treating history of astrology as separate from history of astronomy (Chinese astrology vs. Chinese astronomy, Babylonian astrology vs. Babylonian astronomy etc., which is pointless, since astrologia is simply the pre-modern term for "astronomy". From this stems the constant attempts to portray the zodiac as somehow unscientific, while it is simply a coordinate system. Not an "astrological coordinate system" as opposed to a "real" or "scientific" coordinate system.

Distinction of astrology from astronomy becomes very relevant indeed from the 16th century, or even the 10th century, but not before. --dab (𒁳) 08:56, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I now have more information on the first known use of equal signs: Both "5th century BC" and "about 400 BC" appear to refer to cuneiform tablet Berlin State Museum VAT 4924 copied by Owen Gingerich in "Astronomical scrapbook: The origin of the zodiac", Sky and telescope 67/3 (March 1984) 218–220. He translated the applicable passage as "Jupiter and Venus at the beginning of Gemini, Mars in Leo, Saturn in Pisces. 29th day: Mercury's evening setting in Taurus." which he dates to April 419 BC. These signs are also in the oldest known birth horoscope dated April 29, 410 BC which is translated in Tamsyn Barton, Ancient astrology, p. 15:
 * Month [?], Nisan[?], night[?] of the 14th[?], son of Shumausur, son of Shuma-iddina, descendant of Deke, was born. At that time the Moon was below the horn of the Scorpion, Jupiter in Pisces, Venus in Taurus, Saturn in Cancer, Mars in Gemini, Mercury, which had set [for the last time], was [still] in[visible], Month Nisan, the 1st [day of which followed the 30th day of the preceding month], [the new crescent having been visible for] 28 [US], [the duration of the visiblity of the Moon after sunrise on] the 14th[?] was 4,40 [US]; the 27th was the-day-when-the-moon-appeared-for-the-last time. [Things?] will be good for you. Month Du'uz, year 12, ye[ar]? 8 ... (The term 'US' is a unit of time, 1 = 4 minutes.)
 * But she states that equal signs probably date "to early in the Achaemenid period, after the Persians conquered Babylon in 539 BCE." (p.14), without providing any evidence. Ancient astrology as a common root for science and psuedo-science states "Horoscopic astrology appeared in Mesopotamia during the Persian occupation. ... However, there seems to have been a quite practical reason for the beginning of the making of birth horoscopes - since the Persian conquerers had no need of the services of the Babylonian astrologists, the astrologists had to find another way to earn a living."


 * For Libra/Claws see Claudius Ptolemy: Tetrabiblos book I, chapter 9; and G. J. Toomer, Ptolemy's Almagest, book VIII, chapter I, constellation XXVIII: Libra1, where note 1 on page 371 states: "χηλαί [chelai], literally 'claws' (of Scorpious). Both ζυγός [zygos] ('balance', hence Libra) and χηλαί are found in the Greek texts, but Ptolemy always uses the latter except at IX 7 (H267,14), which is a quotation from an earlier observation [by Dionysius via Hipparchus]. ..." (Text in square brackets is mine.) Also Aratus, Phaenomena, paragraphs starting at lines 88, 225, 436, 511, 544, and especially 607 use "claws" exclusively. — Joe Kress (talk) 01:03, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

cleanup progress
the article seems fine to me now, except for the "precession" section and the question of "other zodiacs".

1. the precession thing:
 * the problem here is that this very simple issue is discussed over and over again in at least six different places,
 * I can only agree that "It is probable that there is no branch of Astrology upon which more nonsense has been poured forth than the doctrine of the precession of the equinoxes'" (Nicholas Campion, "The Book of World Horoscopes", The Wessex Astrologer, 1999, p. 485). The solution here is to keep the discussion to a bare minimum and refer the reader to the numerous articles that already more than exhaustively address the question.

2. "other zodiacs":
 * after the removal of spurious New Age urls, we are left with the "Hindu zodiac", the "Chinese zodiac" and the "Maya zodiac". Now the "Hindu zodiac" is in fact exactly the same as the Hellenistic zodiac, simply with Sanskrit names. This doesn't need discussion as an "other zodiac" but can just be treated under "history". As for the Chinese and Maya "zodiacs", they have nothing whatsoever to do with the topic discussed here and should be delegated to zodiac (disambiguation).

--dab (𒁳) 09:11, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have implemented the above points now, too, and I think I am done with the article for now. --dab (𒁳) 09:47, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

June 23 and other inconsistent dates
Guys, is June 23 Gemini or Cancer? It's there under both!!

Same as on the other page of dates - whats going on? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.198.69.135 (talk) 10:58, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Uhh, also the "Astrological sign" page says that Leo is "23 July - 22 August", but this page says it's "July 23 – August 23". Which one is correct?

The sign changes at a specific moment which usually isn't midnight. For instance, on 20 May 2008 at 16:00:53 UTC it will change from Taurus to Gemini. The sign changes at the same moment everywhere on Earth, but what local date and time that moment actually is will be different in different places due to time zones. So does 20 May 2008 count as Taurus or Gemini? It depends on your definitions, and on your time zone, and what time on that date you're talking about. It could be reasonable to cite 20 May both as the last day for Taurus and the first day for Gemini. The exact time and date of the boundary varies from year to year, among other things because of the leap year cycle. It just isn't possible to give a single set of dates that will be perfectly correct in every year and every time zone with no overlaps, because the signs are not defined by the calendar date. 69.63.57.7 (talk) 03:50, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Boots6666 answer: "It just isn't possible to give a single set of dates that will be perfectly correct in every year and every time zone with no overlaps, because the signs are not defined by the calendar date." That's totally right! But! It is possible to give dates approaching the most to a "logical" thinking! As you say, changings of signs don't happen on midnight. That's why i am favorable to give the changing day to both signs, the one before and the one next! Like I did on my new edit of the diagram in the article. I used the ephemerides of the famous book "Astrology" by Julia & Derek Parker, where at the end of the book you can find a double page on the time of change for each sign for the past 100 years! And by "logical" thinking I mean definitely not thinking that 23rd of june belongs to Gemini! You are just 2 days further away of the correct changing date, which is the 21st of june !!! LOL --Boots6666 (talk) 02:07, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The dates given in the table are often different from the dates in the individual signs' pages. Anyone want these made consistent? Copyeditor42 (talk) 10:44, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * the table of "constellations vs. signs" contains valuable information, but its organization should be reconsidered. For astrological purposes, the precise boundary dates listed by year could be given on the articles on the individual signs. --dab (𒁳) 10:47, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

ok, I think we can do the calculation for the current year, by virtue of. Taking the 2009 equinox time, 20 March 11:44 UTC,, and the length of the tropical year, 365.24219 days = 31556925 seconds we can calculate

+n*365.24219 for the year 2009+n. For 2010:, back to Gregorian gives us: March. For 2044: March. Tada! --dab (𒁳) 12:08, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I have created Zodiac date, this should take care of consistency issues. It can just be transcluded wherever the duration of a sign is required. See also Zodiac date sidereal, which in theory would do the same for sidereal duration, only we lack a reference to pin this down. --dab (𒁳) 13:38, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * there was some trouble because I forgot to account for eccentrity, but I think the template works correctly now. Its accuracy should be better than one hour, but we shouldn't expect it to be accurate to the minute. --dab (𒁳) 12:24, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Table restructuring
I can't comment on Dbachmann's talk page because it's semi-protected, but I'd just like to note that I like his recent restructuring of the zodiac-constellation-sign table, which is a part of the article people have fought over a lot in the past, and I hope this version will survive a while. 69.63.60.29 (talk) 14:04, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I am just experiencing that a lot of people are "contributing" to the astrology topics who do not have the first clue of the celestial mechanics involved. I think such should "objections" be ignored. This isn't rocket science. Anyone wishing to discuss how to best present the material should be expected to first make the effort necessary to understand the material. --dab (𒁳) 14:25, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Capricorn vs Capricornus
We need to either decide which one we are going to use, or differentiate and explain the two usages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.147.7.13 (talk) 02:24, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

table of dates: open questions&improvements
Four questions about the Table of dates: I think this would improve the article. Thanks a lot, best regards, de:User:Thire aka --188.45.151.220 (talk) 20:34, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Can anybody give on (online) source of the dates?
 * 2) Is it possible to update the Tropical zodiac dates to 2010?
 * 3) Are the "lengths" of the signs (almost) constant over time? Ie is Aquarius always 29 days? How long is it exactly? Can anybody add a colums with this information?
 * 4) What is Solar stay (in the Constellation-part)?
 * edit: I found out that probably Template:Zodiac date could help me out in question 2 (soon it will shift to 2010, rite?). (but I could not do it by hand). --188.45.151.220 (talk) 21:36, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

What a pitty that noone could help me :( --62.47.162.170 (talk) 10:12, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Greek transliteration
With the help of Google I have transliterated the Greek Zodiac names.

If someone could add them for me (cuz I don't know how to add it correctly), it would be greatly appreciated.

~Garfield Turtle Anime~ (talk) 17:58, 11 December 2009 (UTC) Hajiru