Talk:Zofia Kossak-Szczucka

Untitled
This article needs more biographical material. There is a huge amount of online material about her but it is all in Polish and seems mainly to do with her literary career. Adam 05:44, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I don't understand what they don't understand. Normal people, tried alwys to have normal lives. The people of idea, like Zofia Kossak, in addition, convinced on their moral superiority, were the only one that could have risked their lives for rescuing Jews. That doesn't really matter, what kind of idea do you have if you are a men of idea. I think she was consistent Christian in both shes faces.

For example, Milosz is not a men of any idea, I have doubt, how he earned his Yad Vashem tree (I didn't find any info about it). He always underlined his desire to be alive, that overwhelmed him during the war.

AM

I have pulled out Bartoszewski's The Warsaw Ghetto: A Christian's Testimony to see if I can dig up some other material about her. I have the Protest here in English, but I don't know if it belongs on Wikipedia. What is interesting though is that her name is given as Kossak-Szatkowska throughout. Might be worth a check. Danny 10:55, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Her name is Kossak. first husband was Szczucki, second husband is Szatkowski. I thought i mentioned that in article??? szopen

User:Angela has given me the following advice on the text of the Protest:


 * Hi Adam, the work on the translation is great but Wikipedia is not a place for source texts. It really needs to be placed at Wikisource. Are you aware of the discussion of the same article at the Polish Wikipedia? It is at Dyskusja &#378;róde&#322;:Protest Zofii Kossak-Szczuckiej if you are interested. I was not able to understand the whole discussion but it seems to have been decided to implement a &#377;ród&#322;a (Sources) namespace instead of moving the text to Wikisource. I was speaking to Taw about it and it seems the namespace is preferred over ps because the interface of ps is in English. I think the article on the English Wikipedia should be an explanation of what the document is with a link to the full text at the Wikisource address. I appreciate the work that you and AM are putting into the translation, but it is best that this is moved to a proper location. Angela 21:37, Nov 5, 2003 (UTC)

Following this advice, I have put a summary of the Protest into the main article, and deleted the link to the article Protest of Zofia Kossak-Szczucka, which will soon be deleted. If the full English text is placed at Wikisource that can be linked from the main article. Adam 08:26, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I put the protest to the wikisource. Your interpretation of the Protests is very questionable. More power somebody has, he has more responsiblity. America and England are then the main culprits. Have you heard discussion over bombing the Auschwitz? This was a personal decision of Roosevelt not to bomb the death camps. If you think otherwise, please provide an evidence, what America, England did to prevent the holocaust?AM

The reference is not to the Allies but to the "silence of world Jewry", which is not correct. She cannot have known from Warsaw what "world Jewry" was saying or doing. Adam 11:45, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)

My question has not been answered. You are cutting the England and America phrase out and make uppercase Even, that in original is lowercase, because, as Poles(and Jews) saw it, those countries did nothing to prevent, and didn't in fact react. So what, your anglosaxon POV do not let you say, that Americans were also guilty of voidness???AM

The reference is to whole world, including weven national Jewry. --szopen

I really have no idea what you are talking about here. It was Zofia K, not me, who mentioned the US and Britain.
 * When I compared versions, I found that you put Jewry and deleted US, Britain.

Am I wrong? AM

I don't see what the debate about whether the Allies could or should have prevented or stopped the Holocaust has got to do with this article.
 * The silence of the world in the face of crime is one of the most important points of the protest!AM

My point was that there was no way ZK could have known, in Warsaw in 1942, what was going on in Washington or London or what "world Jewry" was doing. But it is a minor point and I am quite happy to have the line deleted. Adam 13:41, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Mrs Kossak didn't hear bombs exploding at the death camps, and this was very important message. "Those who are silent in the face of murder, she wrote, become accomplices the crime" By the way, do you know that recently NYT and Polish newspaper simultanously published the protest? Nevertheless in the english version 1 paragraph was omitted. Your inteligence to find out which. The same, you tried to omit. AM

I did't "try to omit" anything. I edited the text of the Protest to fit into this article. This article, let me remind you, is about a Pole who tried to help the Jews, which was why I wrote it - because I wanted to demonstrate that I do not have a one-sided view about Poland and anti-Semitism. That's also why I wrote Jan Karsky. Now I am accused of censoring the text.

My suspicion is that AM's enthusiam for the allged failure of the Allies to "stop the Holocaust" is an exercise in Polish guilt-displacement. If even the Allies "failed to stop the Holocaust," he thinks, then that takes the heat off Polish anti-Semitism.
 * This exactly other way around, I think. Everybody knows that Poles were powerless in 1942. There is no responsibility without the power. (Any reasonable person understands that it is impossible to hide 3 mil people.) Americans had a power, yet they did nothing. Instead there is an odd discussion about, what Poles could have done, and this is clear guilt-displacement on the side of people that had an influence. AM
 * Other then that, I don't believe in the group responsibility theory, so if somebody is an American 2003 he is not responsible for the voidness of the American government in 1943 in the face of Holocaust.AM

This issue is not relevant to the central point of the article - what ZK said about the Jews and what she did to help them. That's why I omitted it, but I have no objection to putting it back in.

Adam 23:00, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I'm slightly confused as to what is going on now. Why has Protest of Zofia Kossak-Szczucka been created? There is no such namespace on the English Wikipedia, nor should there be one. We have ps.wikipedia.org for source texts, and the Protest text exists there in both English and Polish. . The Protest of Zofia Kossak-Szczucka article is now just a stub linking to the Wikisource version on ps. It may be better to move that information here instead and then redirect Protest of Zofia Kossak-Szczucka here. However, I think the Protest of Zofia Kossak-Szczucka one needs to be deleted as not only is it a duplicate, it is implying we have such a namespace which will only lead to confusion in the future. I intend to list it for VfD soon if there are no reasons given for keeping it. Angela 01:35, Nov 7, 2003 (UTC)

Angela, I think we thought that's where you wanted it put (see quoted Angela text above). Please put it wherever you think it ought to be, and delete the other/s. Adam 02:05, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * Ok, well there's still one at Protest of Zofia Kossak-Szczucka, but I've deleted the strange namespace one. Angela 02:12, Nov 7, 2003 (UTC)

Debate on Zofia Kossak-Szczucka
This section could be clearer. It's hard to tell what is a quote, or a quote with in quote, and what might be something else. Could someone with access to the original fix it up? Thanks. Peter Grey 17:50, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I just want to note that Zofia's Kossak's fictional book with the English title "Blessed Are the Meek" about St. Francis, was not mentioned. (Was this "God's Madmen"?) I read this book as a youth thirty years ago and it changed my life. It basically presented a Christianity that made sense to me. It contrasted those seeking fame and power with St. Francis seeking humility and service to the poor. It portrayed Francis winning the freedom of imprisoned crusaders from the Sultan, in contrast to the folly of the crusades and of the children's crusades.

Thank you for the article. I had never known anything about the author. Knowing what she wrote about St. Francis, it is clear how her faith could have compelled her to overide the social and religious prejudices of her day to act on behalf of other human beings,even human beings she had been raised to despise, and, unfortunately, still did. Rev. Jack Fitzelle-Jones (216.153.223.53 (talk))

This is a WP:biography, is it not?
Please refrain from turning this article into a battle ground for political confrontations. Such was the exchange of personal letters of third party individuals adding nothing particularly revealing to Zofia Kossak-Szczucka's life and work. I removed that runaway train in accordance with the WP:POINT policy guideline. This is a biographical article meant to provide nonpartisan information about the subject. Please respect that. --Poeticbent talk  04:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Citing a third-party letter in its entirety is indeed not a good idea, but you cannot seriously claim that passages written by the woman herself, cited in the letter, and then summarily deleted from the article, such as:


 * Jews are so terribly alien to us, alien and unpleasant, that they are a race apart. They irritate us and all their traits grate against our sensibilities. Their oriental impetuosity, argumentativeness, specific mode of thought, the set of their eyes, the shape of their ears, the winking of their eyelids, the line of their lips, everything. In families of mixed blood we detect the traces of these features to the third or fourth generation and beyond.


 * have nothing to do with her and "add nothing particularly revealing". Anyway, here's the edit, let the editors with an interest in this article decide. GregorB (talk) 13:37, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

B-class review
Quick failed for WP:POLAND due to insufficient inline citations. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 08:10, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

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