Talk:Zuby/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Bilorv (talk · contribs) 17:50, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Alright, let's just say the fourth GA criterion might be more important here than for the average article. Thoughts on a first pass (more to come if these are addressed): Thanks for the nomination and the work so far in aiming for neutrality on some heated topics. — Bilorv ( talk ) 17:50, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The article is using no pronouns to refer to Udezue during the time he claimed to identify as a transgender woman, and "he/him" otherwise, right? But my understanding is that we use the most recent pronoun (here, "he/him" I guess?) retroactively to refer to the person at all times in their life (see e.g. Elliot Page).
 * ✅ Yeah that makes sense.
 * "After Udezue expressed his views transgender people in sports ..." – Sentence is fine but belongs within the subsection "Transgender views" as it's still a comment related to that topic.
 * I moved it to the subsection. To double check this was not referring to the sentence about his podcast appearances as they were very similiar?  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 20:56, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Yep, you got the right sentence, sorry didn't realise there was ambiguity. — Bilorv ( talk ) 01:45, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
 * "known for his views on transgender people in sports" – Doesn't tell you what his views are. He could be strongly for or strongly against but those aren't the same thing. I'd say "known for his opposition to transgender women participating in women's sports".
 * "and a police incident he was involved in, in 2008" – Even worse than the transgender sports, I think, because I don't want to leave a sentence like that without context in case it implies wrongdoing to some people. Maybe "and for being incorrectly stopped by police in 2008".
 * ✅ Used apprehended.
 * "Udezue at 5:24 pm boards a train" – Use past tense throughout for a past event. This is the way we would describe fiction but not fact, I think.
 * "It added to the ongoing controversial issue of transgender people in sports" – Not a fan of "controversial" as you can communicate the idea that there are different views on the topic without that labelling e.g. "It added to the ongoing question of the role of transgender people in sports".
 * I see your point but the transgender people in sports labels the topic controversial in the first sentence.
 * "In 2019, The Times said he was from Southampton" – Either he is from Southampton (no attribution needed) or you can tell from the other sources that it's a mistake (don't include the sentence at all).
 * ✅ Simplfied to just "and is from Southampton"
 * The article needs another copyedit for small grammatical issues top to bottom. Here's some example issues that I know you can spot on another go through:
 * "Shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes" (occurs twice) – "shooting" should be lowercase and in the lead you need a "the" before it.
 * "From southern England, he lived in Saudi Arabia" – I think changing "he" to "Udezue" establishes the subject a bit better, as it's the first sentence of the paragraph.
 * "he graduated at St Edmund Hall, Oxford in computer science" – Graduated from.
 * "developed in interest" – Is this supposed to be "developed an interest for music"?
 * What makes Disrn (not Dirsn as written) reliable? I can't even find an "About Us" page so I'm doubtful of good fact-checking reputation. Other sources are either reliable secondary sources (of which I think there's enough to show notability) or acceptable primary sources. There is some referencing inconsistency (e.g. in the way YouTube videos are cited) but that's not essential to fix for GA.
 * ✅ Removed Disrn source and fixed YouTube ref inconsistency.  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 21:04, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * "he graduated at St Edmund Hall, Oxford in computer science" – Graduated from.
 * "developed in interest" – Is this supposed to be "developed an interest for music"?
 * What makes Disrn (not Dirsn as written) reliable? I can't even find an "About Us" page so I'm doubtful of good fact-checking reputation. Other sources are either reliable secondary sources (of which I think there's enough to show notability) or acceptable primary sources. There is some referencing inconsistency (e.g. in the way YouTube videos are cited) but that's not essential to fix for GA.
 * ✅ Removed Disrn source and fixed YouTube ref inconsistency.  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 21:04, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * What makes Disrn (not Dirsn as written) reliable? I can't even find an "About Us" page so I'm doubtful of good fact-checking reputation. Other sources are either reliable secondary sources (of which I think there's enough to show notability) or acceptable primary sources. There is some referencing inconsistency (e.g. in the way YouTube videos are cited) but that's not essential to fix for GA.
 * ✅ Removed Disrn source and fixed YouTube ref inconsistency.  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 21:04, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review I've addressed your comments above, the only thing I did not change was controversial label regarding transgender sports. Hopefully its neutral, its tricky dealing with a musician who is not noted in RSs for his music.  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 23:25, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The "controversial" label I'm not too adamant about, so that's fine. But I said "The article needs another copyedit for small grammatical issues top to bottom", so solving the individual examples I pointed out is not enough. Looking again I see within a few seconds: "Emmanuel and Chika are his father and mother; He is a respected doctor" ("he" shouldn't be capitalised); and "After promoting his music and selling his CDs in Southampton, Udezue at 5:24 pm boarded a train destined to Bournemouth (30 miles away from Basingstoke) and shortly thereafter British Transport Police (BLP), after being notified by Hampshire Police, believed he is a suspect possibly involved in the Basingstoke incident." (should be "believed he was", but also hard to follow the sentence as it's too long). These two issues need solving but you also need to re-read the rest of the content and find and address any other prose issues. Thank you for the work so far. — Bilorv ( talk ) 01:45, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I have fixed those two issues and have re-read the article myself and fixed these issues, if it is still poor I could always request a WP:GOCE request.  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 07:53, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I think we're still substantially below GA-quality prose, with phrases like "he graduated from St Edmund Hall, Oxford, in computer science" (rather than e.g. "with a degree in computer science") and "pursuing it full-time in 2011" (rather than "from 2011") and "he moved to live in Saudi Arabia where he attended an international school and his parents worked there for two decades" ("where ... his parents worked there" reads oddly) and "Aged 11, he attended a boarding school in the UK and frequently travelled" ("frequently travelled" is presumably about when he was at boarding school in general, but the sentence means "he frequently travelled while aged 11").
 * I think the standard GOCE waiting time is currently between weeks and months, so I can either put this on hold and give you a week (but you might not get a GOCE in that time) or I can close this as unsuccessful, you can do the GOCE out of process and then nominate for GA again. Let me know what you think. — Bilorv ( talk ) 20:23, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
 * In regards to those specific points you brought up I did not think it was worth specifying in the lead he recieved a degree from university since as I believe it is ubiquitous across universities but I can change it if deemed necessary. I changed "pursuing it full-time in 2011", to from and "Aged one, he moved to live in Saudi Arabia where he attended an international school and his parents worked there for two decades." to "Aged one, he and his parents moved to live in Saudi Arabia where he attended an international school. His parents worked there for two decades." I am not sure what you mean in regards to the meaning of the "frequently travelled" sentence. The sentence concludes with "frequently travelled between the two countries" i.e. flying back and forth between the UK ) and Saudi Arabia (presumably whilst 11 up until he left boarding school) so I am not sure how the meaning can be misconstrued. I have done another read over and copyedit and I am not sure how it does not meet 1.a.
 * If you still strongly believe it does not meet 1.a. I will request a GOCE request but you could wait until the request is fulfilled before closing the review. Regards  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 15:28, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Some examples of prose concerns I have in the current version:
 * "He started his rapping career in 2006, pursuing it full-time from 2011 and has since released six albums throughout his career" – Missing comma after "2011", right? Other I'm not sure what "has since" is attached to.
 * Added a comma after 2011.
 * "Aged 11, he attended a boarding school in the UK and frequently travelled between the two countries" – You ask about the issue with this. It says "Aged 11, he... frequently travelled between the two countries". But this is talking about several years, right? (Maybe 11 to 18, even.) The source given doesn't say "I frequently travelled between Saudi Arabia and the UK when I was 11", but (in essence) "I frequently travelled when I was at boarding school". I guess maybe the confusion is that I didn't say I took issue with "Aged 11, he attended a boarding school in the UK" – an issue with my skim-reading. This has the same issue. I think "From the age of 11, he attended a boarding school in the UK and frequently travelled between the two countries" (or however you want to say it) would be what is needed here.
 * Ah I think I see what you mean now. For reference the source said "when I was 11 I went boarding school at the age of 11. So I was back and forth between the two countries for a long time". So I changed it to "From the age of 11, he attended a boarding school in the UK and frequently travelled between the two countries".
 * "As a child he played the piano and the trombone, the latter he played in a band ..." – Looks like a comma splice, as the two clauses in this sentence are independent.
 * Changed "As a child he played the piano and the trombone, the latter he played in a band and during his teenage years became interested in hip-hop music." to "As a child he played the piano and the trombone; the latter of which he played in a band. Later, during his teenage years he became interested in hip-hop music."
 * "In 2008, he lived in Bournemouth with his parents, and is from Southampton" – Last clause doesn't make sense in this context ("In 2008, he... is from Southampton"? The sentence just doesn't track).
 * Okay I will explain this since the sources are tricky to follow as to where Udezue is from. We know he was born in Luton. In a 2008, The Times (high quality RS) article states: "Mr Udezue lives in Bournemouth [...]". In a 2019, The Times article he it states: "Zuby, who is from Southampton [...]". I did orginally have it as In 2008, he lived in Bournemouth with his parents. In 2019, The Times said he was from Southampton. but I know you mentioned before we should not attributing this fact. Without using WP:OR like the subject moved from Bournemouth to Southampton between 2008 and 2019 or the possiblity that either one of these articles could have been mistaken (for reference the two areas are 30 miles away from each other) how is the best way to deal with this?  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 13:34, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure my geography is good enough to answer this question: do you think someone might say a person is "from Southampton" if they were from Bournemouth, like you might say you were "from London" even if you're a bit outside it but it's the nearest well-known place? I would be tempted to ignore The Times unless they're giving a specific time he lived in a specific place, as it sounds like they're just giving broad context to where in the country Zuby is from. But my original issue was simply that the grammar of the sentence is wrong. The implied meaning is, "In 2008, he... is from Southampton", which doesn't make sense. Someone can't be "from [a place] [originally]" with respect to a particular year. You just mean "He is from Southampton", so the concern I raised (which I see now is not the full picture) would have been fixed by separating that out into two sentences: "In 2008, he lived in Bournemouth with his parents. He is from Southampton." — Bilorv ( talk ) 15:10, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
 * In regards to your question: (do you think someone might say a person is "from Southampton" if they were from Bournemouth, like you might say you were "from London" even if you're a bit outside it but it's the nearest well-known place?) It is it entirely possible, but it would be strange to do that since it is a UK newspaper, I believe Bournemouth is a reasonably known place (but could be biased since I know a reasonably bit of that part of England). Though Southampton is certainly more well-known of the two (big port). For reference we do know he arrived Bournemouth station during the police incident. In addition he lists where is from on Twitter as Southampton. But I believe it would WP:OR to conclude to dismiss one article in favour of another. Thoughts on how to process whilst avoiding OR?  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 14:34, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
 * WP:OR is often quoted in situations like this, but the text of the policy refers only to text in articles, not to editorial decisions about what to include or exclude. In this case, I would still be inclined to omit the Times source as the information's provenance and scope is unclear ("he is from Southampton" is not really the sort of sentence we have in bios—much better are "he lived in X from Y to Z"). We're not bound to include every sentence from every source: there has to be some process by which you decide what information to select. I think it would be reasonable for you to disagree with my opinion, though, and just include it as a standalone sentence, perhaps at the start of the section. — Bilorv ( talk ) 19:06, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah I see where your coming from. Would help to tell you Zuby unequivocally said he lived in Southampton through his Twitter page (a primary source). User: Where do you live now out of interest? Zuby: Southampton (21 May 2020) .   Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 20:40, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure, still your choice about what to do. — Bilorv ( talk ) 09:21, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
 * This isn't supposed to be an exhaustive list, but illustrative examples of not meeting 1a from the initial sections of the article. As I didn't get to the stage in the review of doing a search for more sources (for broadness), source spotchecks or doing more than a first pass on content issues, I don't feel like it's worth waiting (potentially) several weeks for a GOCE in the way it could be if it was the last thing to check off the list. I don't like leaving GANs hanging indefinitely, particularly as in this case it could hit me with bad timing in this case, contingent on real life factors. However, if you want to ping me after the GOCE is done I will tell you if I could pick this up for a GA2 and then we'd be able to continue where we left off; if not then hopefully the article has benefitted from the suggestions so far and would be in a good place to sail through another reviewer's process. I'll default to putting this on hold for a week in 24 hours (some GOCEs might get done within a week) but tell me if you'd rather I fail it sooner. — Bilorv ( talk ) 21:40, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I have requested a GOCE copy edit.
 * Formally for seven days. — Bilorv ( talk ) 12:55, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Alright, it's a fail for GA at this time, but a second nomination is welcome once copyediting concerns have been fixed. — Bilorv ( talk ) 23:20, 8 April 2021 (UTC)