Talk:Zueignung

Lyrics
Blimey, exactly how dire is this translation? Don't bother wondering, it's 100% shite. MinorProphet (talk) 18:32, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * And you can do better? (Anon)
 * Yup, but I'm busy atm. MinorProphet (talk) 18:32, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It's from the 19th century, so out of copyright, and singable. Provide something literal in addition, perhaps? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:20, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's singable, but that's about it. He renders 'die Seele' as 'sweet', inserts plenty of rhyming padding which just isn't there in the original, and completely fails to mention the 'Amethysten-Becher' which for me is the ultra-romantic essence of the whole lyric. Mind you, there aren't many English rhymes for amethyst or goblet... BTW, this word instantly put me in mind of Hoffmansthal's Die Beiden from 1896:

Sie trug den Becher in der Hand — Ihr Kinn und Mund glich seinem Rand —, So leicht und sicher war ihr Gang, Kein Tropfen aus dem Becher sprang.

So leicht und fest war seine Hand: Er ritt auf einem jungen Pferde, Und mit nachlässiger Gebärde Erzwang er, daß es zitternd stand.

Jedoch, wenn er aus ihrer Hand Den leichten Becher nehmen sollte, So war es beiden allzuschwer; Denn beide bebten sie so sehr, Daß keine Hand die andre fand Und dunkler Wein am Boden rollte.


 * I wholly acknowledge the immense difficulty of translating German lyrical poetry into English: although Bernhoff catches the essence of the poem, much is lost. I came across Lauritz Melchior singing it (starts around 4:50), which sparked my interest in the article. So, ✅ - after a fashion. MinorProphet (talk) 03:48, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. I can't judge the English, but have some concerns regarding the meaning looking at the German:
 * "dass ich fern von dir mich quäle" should begin with "that ..." - that's what he knows she knows: that when away from her he torments himself.
 * "die Herzen" is plural - a factual general sentence, not just his heart
 * "Einst", alluding to his past vs. the presence, should come first, and "Once" is almost too weak for a distant past
 * Zecher = someone drinking spirits heavily (borderline to too much, "boozer"?) seems to be missing, "reveler" sounds too harmless. It relates to the "Becher" which is a rather ordinary "cup", not a fancy "goblet" (but perhaps just to rhyme), drinking too much freedom - is there any word?
 * "du segnetest" is just "you blessed", not "you gave ... a blessing"
 * "Trank" is rather a poetic word, not simply a "Getränk", so drink is a bit to common for a match (Liebestrank in Tristan und Isolde, probably no coincidence, would be "love potion")


 * "die Bösen" are "the evil", people in plural, not a concept - my translator suggests "conjured up the wicked"
 * "ans Herz" is not "ins Herz", - it's just a poetic phrase for embracing ("komm an mein Herz" come to my heart)
 * "heilig, heilig" is the climax in text and music, and alluding to the Sanctus: that should be "Holy, holy" in the same position or would miss the key point that a "sinner" (libertarian) thanks someone who made him holy against all probability. The composer gave it when he married her, - no idea how much biographic understanding for the position of the "lyrisches Ich". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:57, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

And how, MinorProphet, would you render the title which says that the singer gives himself to the person addressed? Literally Dedication, and perhaps best because carrying the same ambiguity. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:02, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , thank you so much (Habe Dank?) for your helpful insights. As to the last point, I would definitely go with 'Dedication' for the title, which also has overtones of Beethoven's Die Weihe des Hauses. Some of my English phrasing (eg "du segnetest"), is an attempt to reproduce the original rhythm, but as you make clear, 'literal' has to be just that, and not an attempt at 'poetry in English'. I wasn't sure about "heilig, heilig", but you make the religious meaning more obvious. Would you make an ordinary 'cup' out of amethyst? Leo Online gives 'Becher' for goblet, but also 'Kelch', which is the word used in in the Gospels. Maybe it's a Sangraal in disguise? I agree that the rhyming pair Zecher-Becher is almost too easy, but we mustn't distort what Gilm wrote. I keep on thinking of the hilarious Der zerbrochener Krug and the Emil Jannings film, but that is obviously wrong.


 * In many ways the whole lyric takes on a much more sanctified atmosphere then Bernhoff allows. I'll have another go soon. MinorProphet (talk) 18:53, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi, Gerda, many many thoughts and few conclusions. I've updated the "heilig, heilig" line in the article.

1. You may have come across Mark Twain's humorous and affectionate The Awful German Language in which he uses 'Schlag' and 'Zug' as examples of German words capable of multiple interpretations, often depending on the context. 'Becher' is a bit like that: For Becher, Leo Online has beaker, cup, goblet, mug, tumbler, can, bowl, Crater (astron.) = Greek krater, (which I had also been wondering about), chalice (goblet, poet., hist.) and the Bell Beaker culture. There is also the verb 'bechern', to booze.

2. I thought that Amethyst was green-ish, like emerald, (now I know it's violet-purple): but interestingly in the lede of that article I read that "The ancient Greeks wore amethyst, and carved drinking vessels from it in the belief that it would prevent intoxication." And later in the article, "Anglican bishops wear an episcopal ring often set with an amethyst, an allusion to the description of the Apostles as "not drunk" at Pentecost in Acts 2:15.[19]" Amethyst is indeed derived from the Greek (Eytmonline) for "not drunk", ie "sober". Learn something every day, eh?

3 Taking the above two points together, I personally incline towards one of the more poetical or archaic meanings such as goblet or even chalice, if we were to cautiously move towards the more religious aspects of Gilm's lyric, ("heilg, heilig"): but I feel that an ordinary 'cup' doesn't quite match up with the extended mythical/esoteric implications of amethyst discussed above. I would possibly go for 'vessel', Gefäß, as a somewhat poetical but indeterminate receptacle, but sadly it doesn't come within any meaning of 'Becher' if we are being literal.

3. As far as I can see, 'Zecher' is reveller, carouser, wassailer (mostly deliberately archaic these days, obsolete, usually only used at Christmas time in the UK) and toper (a bit unusual, but definitely a habitual and heavy drinker). Which tends to indicate that the "Amethysten-Becher" is the exact opposite of whatever 'Zecher' implies. By drinking from it, the poet is showing that he is not drunk at all, but sober and clear-headed about what is happening. And in fact, by drinking this Tristan-like potion, he positively abjures freedom, and throws it away in exchange for amorous (married?) bliss. This is what happened to Strauss, but the song was written in 1885, and he only met Pauline in 1887 according the WP article.

If you don't like reveller, then "der Freiheit Zecher" could be rendered as "freedom's toper", if we incline towards the farther end of the drunken scale, but 'toper' just seems completely wrong here, and it just doesn't have the connotations of merry-making at a Wiener heuriger, (a bit like the opening of The Student of Prague) neither do I feel that it applies to a pissed-up staggering lout barely capable of speech. Personally I would go with something like "drunk with freedom" as a rhythmical 'language-mediation' rendering, but if we are going to be literal we ought to use two nouns as in the original.

4.And then "die Bösen", which can also mean "the bad guys", or "evil fairies" or "wicked spirits", which I tend towards. I don't think that any sense of 'evil' is intended here, otherwise how does the "lyrisches Ich" sink holy, holy, into her embrace? In fact, what do these two lines actually mean? What could she have conjured that made him sink etc. And - grammatically - does "darin" actually refer to the drink/cup?

5. "Habe Dank" is probably best rendered as a straightforward "Have thanks" - again, my own "Have my thanks" is an attempt to reproduce the original rhythm, and not simply the words alone.

6. I wondered where Gilm's original poem appeared, and the fabulous LiederNet Archive tells us: It's in Volume I of the collected works (NB simply appalling scan), and shows that isn't in the Last Songs at all, but from Im Frühling. Here's the original:

Ja, du weißt es, theure Seele, Daß ich fern von dir mich quäle, Liebe macht die Herzen krank, Habe Dank.

Hielt ich nicht, der Freiheit Zecher, Hoch den Amethisten-Becher Und du segnetest den Trank, Habe Dank.

Und beschworst darin die Bösen, Bis ich, was ich nie gewesen, Heilig an das Herz dir sank, Habe Dank.

The LeiderNet article points out that Strauss made two alterations to the poem "Einst hielt ich" is substituted for "Hielt ich nicht", and  "Heilig, heilig an's Herz" replaces "Heilig an das Herz".

I suspect that Gilm's original "Hielt ich nicht" has connotations of "Did I not hold", with a missing question mark, otherwise it doesn't seem to make any sense. Perhaps you could enlighten me further. The original single "Heilig" can be translated as 'holy', but also 'sacred', and even 'saintly', and Strauss' repetition at least blurs whatever Gilm actually intended.

7. A research paper for someone's M. Mus [https://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi? Scholarly Program Notes on the Graduate Voice Recital of Clinton Keith Wark] p. 27 says it was originally written in the key of E. (for the infobox).

8. Off-topic: I watched the film of Der zerbrochener Krug last night again (have you ever seen it?), and it's even funnier than the first time. In it the Ratsherr slices some bread sideways in his hands with an ordinary cooking knife as easily as if it were cheese. Would you happen to know what sort of bread this might be? There's no way you can do that with any sort of English bread I have ever come across. Mit herzlichen Grüßen, MinorProphet (talk) 19:28, 21 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you, - before getting lost in many good thoughts I gave myself a few urgent tasks (get rid of side navbox for Donizetti's operas, finish a PR, give precious). - Independently, I wondered about "sank" and Isolde's "ertrinken, versinken" at almost the very end, pictured. - "an das Herz" is awful German, - Strauss seems almost better than Gilm ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:52, 21 November 2020 (UTC)


 * I've tried quite hard with both Tristan and Parsifal, but these are the only Wagner operas I just don't seem to appreciate. Anyway, from 1891, |An Etymological Dictionary of the German Language/Annotated/Becher has ‘beaker, goblet’. I imagine that Zeche (noun) related to our Zecher? It also gives MHG zëchen ‘to run up a score [or tab] at an inn.’ At Leo Online, 'Zecher' can also be carouse, quaff, tipple, roister (beware of roisterers, they are probably going to become rowdy). And anyway, how drunk is the poet? I liked "die Zeche prellen", "to dine and dash" [coll.] Actually, "quaffer" (poet., arch.) is not too bad in some ways - a quaffer can drink deeply, and avoids the sense of inebriation - if that is indeed what Gilm intended. 'Tipple' in English these days is rather humorous, like "kneipen", "Kneipe" can be a 'boozer' or a 'drinking hole'. BTW Did you ever come across de:Ludlamshöhle, named after a play by Adam Oehlenschläger (see also Busoni's Piano Concerto). At least ten members were torch-bearers at Beethoven's funeral, and the poet Castelli read a poem at his graveside. MinorProphet (talk) 22:01, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I finished the Donizetti and the review. Will do precious and then sleep ;) - Tomorrow Britten's birthday and St. Cecilia's Day - pictured hook! Patience please. - Habe Dank! That's a poetic unusual phrase, and your three syllables match it well! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:51, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

3 December
Just looking as if from scratch, without reading the above again, but assuming (as said elsewhere) the by "he" I mean the singer (who could also be a woman) and by "she" the one addressed (who could also be a man):
 * I gave it "our" title.
 * "die Herzen" is plural, makes the hearts of both lovers sick he assumes. (Not sure he's right. She may be completely indifferent.)
 * second stanza lovely!
 * third a problem
 * "Und beschworst darin die Bösen" - that's not bad times, - I guess "beschwören" means something like drive bad spirits away, - "exorcism" is too strong, but the direction.
 * "Bis ich, was ich nie gewesen, heilig, heilig an's Herz dir sank" - "was" is not "where", in plain prose: "Until I, which I had never been, holy sank to your heart" - while "into your embrace" is not bad either. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:13, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Not "Devotion"
"Devotion" seems to be an erroneous translation. It would be a good translation for "Zuneigung", but not "Zueignung". Ds77 (talk) 21:20, 16 February 2021 (UTC)