Talk:Zuko/Archive 1

Detail
Hi...shouldn't this page include a picture of Zuko as he is seen in the second season???? You know...with HAIR....just a thought....and yes, I'd do it myself but I suck at editing pages...so could someone do it for me please!?!?!?! Thanx! Aelita the Angel June 2, 2006 7:04 pm

His mother
His mother was a Princess. Married to Prince Ozai, therefore Princess by her husband's right! Unlike her daughter, Azula, who is a Princess through birthright/blood.

Question: Do you mean him by chance? I mean, this is Zuko's board.... (Sayasha)

--Yes, I meant his mother.

Also, someone changed her name to Fire Lady Ursa, but she did not ascend the throne with her husband. She left before he became Fire Lord.

Technically if she is still alive they would be married, so I'd say she's still the Fire Lady (???) - H2P

No because she left and wasn't crowned with her husband. So she never ascended to that title.

Okay, STOP IT! Stop changing her name to Fire Lady Ursa! She was never crowned as the Fire Lord's official consort because she left before he was crowned! You're pissing me off!


 * Agreed. Even if she is still alive, which is unknown, she was never crowned as a Fire Lady; the last position she officially held was that of Princess regardless of her currently being alive or dead.  Prototime 22:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I imagine that it totally depends on whether she's still alive or not. Cause, if she's alive, then she's still married to Ozai, which makes her Fire Lady/Queen (whatever you wanna call it). But, she was never actually CROWNED Fire Lady, so...24.154.137.15 20:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

Reasoning for including shipping?
This is as good a page as any for me to ask on, with the "Zutara" mention, I have to say something. I do realize that Wikipedia doesn't have to worry about space constraints when deciding what can and cannot go into it, but to what extent should fan-shipping be included in this articles? If I write a fanfic about Aang and Zuko becoming lovers, and call it "Zukang" shipping, and it picked up in popularity, with more writing such pairing in fanfics, would this be worth mentioning on Zuko's and Aang's pages?

Has this been covered on Wikipedia somewhere I'm unaware of? I checked the shipping (fandom) page and its associated talk page, but didn't catch anything about the inclusion of mention about shipping on fictional character pages.

I wouldn't expect Bill Gates's page to suggest that fanfic writers like to pair him up with Martha Stewart (assuming such fanfics were written and popular).

Lesoria 04:28, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * You people have too much time on your hands...--BorisFromStockdale 04:23, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Ursa didn't leave, she died! She volunteered to be killed in Zuko's stead. Get it RIGHT, you boneheads!
 * First, I’d suggest that you review Wikipedia’s policy regarding personal attacks. I think you’ll find things work better when you don’t call other editors names. Secondly, that Ursa died was never said or shown on screen. It is, admittedly, a popular theory, but it isn’t fact.--Fyre2387 02:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Relationship with Katara
Now look, I know that the Zutara thing sounds pretty farfetched, and its pretty obvious that the people writing this article are biased towards the Kataang thing, but please show a little more respect towards Zutara. I know that there is no solid evidence for Zutara, but the evidence for Kataang is completely coincidental. I will try to explain this, the first time Aang thinks of Katara as a romantic interest was in the Fourtune teller, and then Aunt Wu tells Katara that she will marry a powerful bender, and then at the end of the episode they point to Aang via "Sometimes I forget how powerful a bender Aang is." My point being is that why give such a vauge clue with "powerful bender" and immediatley point to Aang, in the same episode Aang falls in love with Katara ? And they continue this with the cave of two lovers, lets face it, we know they wanted us to think Aang and Katara kissed, but there is no solid evidence that they did, why would they do that? Now I know that all the clues point to Aang, but I remeber the Harry Potter series (Spolier Ahead) that only had a slight mention of Harry/Ginny in the begining when Ginny had a crush on Harry, and it was countinued to make it look like a girlish crush, and then Ginny moved on to more boyfriends, and then BAM!! Harry/Ginny became Cannon. There are other things I could say about this that I wont but let me leave with this, Katara and Sokka were the first two to find Aangs, and they have been friends ever since there meeting, but when Aang and Katara first saw each other, the didnt really think of eachother in that way. They've been through so much, the could practicly be brother and sister. Now Katara and Zuko have been eneimes since day 1, and been bareknuckle fighting since day 2, this kind of relation ship could go many different ways, I dont know who said this, but what they said was "the person you know best, is your enemy." and I know who said this, "People fight, and sometimes get married, and do a much different kind of fighting after that." C.S Lewis. I know that a lot of people will hate me for saying this, some will call me a noob, but hey, its all good. And if it turns out that the Katang thing is for real, Hey no hard feelings.

Answer: How about instead we don't include theorized relationships.


 * Better Answer: WP:DELUSION. Pacific Coast Highway blah • my tracks 16:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Please. It's an unnecessary concession to Zuko/Katara shippers to have Katara listed on Zuko's page at all considering they don't actually have any meaningful connection or relationship in the canon. Raceberry 00:52, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

About every Avatar character article is chockfull of fancruft. Some major cleaning up might be in order. This shipping nonsense is little more than fan fiction. In WP articles, it's embarassing. --Antrophica 23:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Special attention obviously needs to be paid to the bios for Aang, Katara, Zuko, and Toph. Also, I've seen at least one edit war in the Mai bio over whether she likes Zuko that resulted in a parenthetical aside in one sentence to the effect of "SHE STILL LIKES HIM" that specifically contradicted the rest of the sentence which was implying that she doesn't. Embarassing is right. --Raceberry 03:03, 23 May 2006 (UTC) talk
 * Agreed as well. I've cleaned up this page and the Katara page a bit a couple weeks back or so, but much still needs to be done. I'd be interested in doing more.  Who's up for some multi-page ship-burning? Prototime 05:44, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * You don't have to ask me twice. Especially since I checked the Katara page today and someone has readded a bunch of stuff about "Zutara" to the the Prince Zuko part of her "Relationships" section. Honestly, I think that the ship-burning should start with removing people from characters' relationship sections who only have meaningful relationships/connections in fanfiction. For instance, right now, with all of the bias that used to be in it removed, the Katara section of Zuko's bio is just a recap of the few interactions they've had, which are just Zuko-looking-for-Aang stuff. I mean, Sokka and Zuko fight twice notably in the pilot, Sokka insults him in Bato of the Water Tribe and vocally supports leaving him to die in Seige of the North, but Sokka doesn't make an appearance in Zuko's relationship section. Basically, if we're going to put every person that a character has had interactions with on their character page, then fine, but it certainly shouldn't be done selectively just because people happen to ship a pair. I've also been considering doing a clean up of the episode pages which tend to be full of more fancruft and lots of speculation and conjecture under the "Trivia" sections. They're also not that grammatically tight. Raceberry 06:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC) talk
 * Half of the "Relationships" section is too much speculation. If no one else beats me to it, I'll get to taking out the trash. --Antrophica 11:41, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia = Facts

Shipping = Fiction

By this understanding, Zutara should not be even mentioned because we've seen nothing canonical to support something like that. However, the stuff about Aang and Katara should be listed (like the crush, the "kiss", Fortunteller, etc.) because it has happened and contributes to many of the episodes. Nothing between Katara and or Zuko has (and, come on, be serious, ever will) happened therefore it shouldn't be part of their bio. --H2P 2:32, 28 May 2006

Agreed with all statements above. Virtually all the Avatar pages have conjecture of some kind, most notably shipping. Heck, I just removed more shipping crud from this page, the Katara page (Talk:Katara), and the Sokka page (Talk:Sokka). It's almost tempting to start a Wikiproject:Avatar to clean up this huge mess. Prototime 23:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, your all right, when I wrote this it had a million different ships on it, and I am new so I didnt really think about the whole neutrality thing, thank you guys for cleaning this crap up, I'm new, My bad.

Avatar=Fiction, Peace --St.Gameractucs Hulk 19:32, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for stating the glaringly obvious. Eban 23:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Well guys, what I originally intended a passing statement may just become a reality. Check out Talk:Avatar: The Last Airbender for information on a potential WikiProject that, should it get off the ground, will ideally serve as a device to reduce this and many other problems concerning the content and strucutre of pages relating to Avatar: The Last Airbender on Wikipedia. Prototime 23:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The WikiProject is now official; check it out at Wikipedia:WikiProject Avatar: The Last Airbender. I hope to see everyone there! Prototime 16:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I personally saw no romantic feelings between the two however i've noticed that he doesn't taunt or insult her as much as he used to. one of the big things i've noticed about Zuko is his respect for his enemies he might bad mouth them but for some reason i see that he has a sense of sportsmanship about fighting them espicially Aang and Katara
 * This is most likely due to concentration during fighting. Any looking into his character that he hasn't stated himself is speculation.H2P 20:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

My mistake i shall endevour not to put speculation in this acticle. still what i say definantly seems more likely than the idea that Zuko is in love with Katara, still i realize that yes it is speculation.
 * One question, where do you get this "proof" from? It seems like a bunch of coincidences mixed together. Pacific Coast Highway (blah • Closed Captioned) 23:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I usually try no to get involved in these shipping conversations, cause they can get pretty messy (no, I don't thinking shipping should be included in articles), but to build on what a previous user has said regarding Zutara: I think it's a fair-enough theory, and one that I support whole-heartedly. I agree, there have been many...STRAIGHT-FORWARD hints at Kataang, but there have also been many subtle signs for Zutara...most of which a viewer wouldn't usually take in until Zutara actually happens, unless they were looking for it. I'm gonna leave you with that. 24.154.137.15 21:00, 30 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

Zuko's age
Ok, as it stated int eh 1st season, he was 14 when banished. Now, in season 2, he had his 3 year mark of being banished. Check my math, but that equals 17 years old. So stop deleting the part that says he's not 17! ~Sayasha


 * I tend to think that he's 17 by now too, but it would probably resolve the issue if you could reference where it was specifically stated (either on the show or from some other official source) that he was 14 during his Agni Kai. I know it's assumed, but I don't recall where it was explicitly stated. --Raceberry 03:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)talk


 * Well I know Nick.com says Zuko was 16 when they show started and in the episode where Zuko dueled Zhao he said he'd been hunting the Avatar for 2 years now, making him 14 when he was sent into exile. If we add the 3 years Zuko now says he's been exiled to the 14 years old he must've been when he was we can assume he is now 17 years old.--Sam132289 02:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I know that, which is why I generally assume that he is 17, but that entire thing is thrown off if, say, Zuko's birthday is in the summertime. Since summer hasn't come around yet on the show he wouldn't be 17 yet and it doesn't contradict anything that's been stated. Which is why the only way to know for sure if he's 17 now, three years since his banishment, is to know how old he was then. Of course, I don't honestly care either way and I think it's pretty insignificant a detail, but since someone felt it warranted discussion/dispute then it should be acknowledged that there's room for it to be disputed. Raceberry 05:40, 27 May 2006 (UTC)talk


 * Yeah that's true too, but wouldn't he still be 17 years old? Maybe I'm just confused but I mean he'd would have to be 14 no matter what when he got sent into exile if he was 16 when the show started. Nick said that he was so that's all we have to work with. And if that's the case there's no way around it 16 (age) - 2 (banishment) = 14 (age at banishment; A.O.B). Now, if you took that 14 (A.O.B.) + 3 years (banished) = 17 (current age), see what I mean? Maybe my math is just wrong, or the way I'm doing it, but I don't see how it would really matter when his birthday was considering that even if I were to say I myself am 16, the same age as Zuko, I would've been 14 2 years ago. I'll use his age because it's easier to show, but anyways 2 years ago from this date (May 28, 2006) I would have to be 14 years old, even if my birthday was today, tomorrow, or yesterday I'd still be 14. Get it? If it were yesterday I would've just turned 16 then, and would've just turned 14, 2 years ago. If it were today I would've turned 16 today and I would've just became 14, 2 years ago too. Lastly, if it were tomorrow I would be 16 currently and STILL would've been 14 then as well (sure I turn 15 the next day but see what I'm mean?) So wouldn't he HAVE to be 17?? I mean a year is a year and his birthday would've passed like 3 times wouldn't it? Making him 17?--Sam132289 19:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * No, he doesn't HAVE to be 17. Your math isn't wrong. 14 + 2 is 16 and 14 + 3 is 17. You're just not considering it correctly.


 * "I were to say I myself am 16, the same age as Zuko, I would've been 14 2 years ago. I'll use his age because it's easier to show, but anyways 2 years ago from this date (May 28, 2006) I would have to be 14 years old, even if my birthday was today, tomorrow, or yesterday I'd still be 14."


 * No, you wouldn't. Because if your birthday is May 28, two years ago on May 27th or any other date before May 28th, you'd still be 13.


 * Let me put it to you like this: We know for a fact that Zuko was 16 years old when current canon started in the winter. We know for a fact that the third anniversary of his Agni Kai just passed in the beginning of Book Two, which means his Agni Kai was in the spring. That is *all* that we know factually.


 * So, let's say for instance (using the Gregorian calendar for the sake of simplicity), that Zuko's Agni Kai was in March and his birthday is in June and the canon started in December. If Zuko was 13 during his Agni Kai in March, then come December two years later (i.e. the start of the canon), he would be 16 years old because his June birthday would have passed three times since his Agni Kai. But come the third anniversary of his Agni Kai the following March (i.e. the start of Book Two), he would *still* be 16 years old because his birthday wouldn't be until June.


 * Basically, it's stated that he's 16 and his Agni Kai was 2 years ago when the show began, but it is never directly stated that he was 14 during his Agni Kai. And if he wasn't 14 during his Agni Kai, the only thing that we know for a fact was exactly 3 years ago, then he's not necessarily 17 now. Raceberry 10:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * My sentiments exactly. Because of this, it simply cannot be assumed that he is 17, despite anyone's superior math skills.  This is why I changed reverted the age to 16 a while back... sorry it took me a while to respond.Prototime 22:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Equally you cannot assume he's only 16. It hasn't been exactly two years and without further information it's not possible for any of us to know for sure. Therefore I say his age ought be listed as 16 (or 17). At the moment we don't know, and until we see him say his age or celebrate a birthday we're not likely to. Eban 23:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think we should stick with 16 until we're explicitly told otherwise, but I can settle for that. Prototime 05:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Where did the "(Turning 17 in late Book 3 or early beginning of Book 4)" come from? It's amazing how often these things update and some of the things people try to pawn off as fact. Eban 17:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Huh. It hasn't even been confirmed that there is a book 4. Prototime 22:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, this si getting out of hand. Think about it like this. If Azula is 2 years YOUNGER then Zuko, and she's 15, then 15=2=17, not 15+2=16. For tose of you who know math, check it, if you wish. But he is 17, not 16! ~Sayasha


 * Where does it say she's 2 years younger and where does it say she's 15? H2P 22:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Nowhere. The only reference to Azula's age I've ever heard of was the creators reportedly citing her as the same age as Sokka at Comicon last year. Raceberry 13:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The only verifiable information concerning his age that we have is Iroh's mentioning his age being 16 years old in the first episode.  Until we have concrete proof that his age has since changed, his age on this article should reflect what information we do know. Prototime 21:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

But if you put 2 and 2 together, then you know that he's 17! They just about say it in the episode if you listen correctly! Though you dont want to admit it, you know that he is 17! If you can give me logical proof, that he is still 16, then I will drop it. bu ttill then, he is still 17-years-old, and I will keep changing it t say 17-years-old! Nick.com says that he is 16 in the first season. If in the 2nd season, it is known that he was banished 3 years prior, then he has to be 17 now! And think about this. It says Azula is the same age as Sokka. If there is a 2 reay difference in Azula and Zuko's age, then Zuko is 17.~Sayasha


 * They never say any such thing in the episode. The only thing they ever say in any episode regarding Zuko's age is that he was 16 when the show began. It doesn't matter if his Agni Kai was 3 years ago because you have no proof that he was 14 during his Agni Kai. You just assume that he was. Nor has any verifiable source ever said that Zuko is two years older than Azula. We don't have to prove that he's 16. Until they either state that a year has passed since the beginning of the show or Zuko celebrates a birthday then there's nothing to support your conclusion that he's 17 so he keeps the only age that has ever canonically been ascribed to him. Stop changing his age to 17 unless you can provide an actual verifiable source that states that he is 17 years old as of season two, and not just your flawed logic. Raceberry 13:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Please, let's not make an edit war out of this, Saysha. We don't know what his age was at his Agni Kai; we cannot assume he was 14, meaning we cannot assume he turned 17 now.  Until there is actual verifiable information on either of these possibilities, we must stick with the canon.  Otherwise, you're just making assumptions and inserting your point of view, neither of which belong on this page. Prototime 16:40, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well if he was 14 at the agni kai he would be 17 now. In The Avatar State Iroh says it's the third anniversary. Eban 22:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, just finished reading the rest of this nonsense. Don't mind me. Eban 23:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Shay, our entire WikiProject is devoted to keeping these pages clean of all forms of speculation and to clean them up to represent all the information that has been presented to us. I'll be watching all the episodes in order soon to get quotes and a list of animals. Any information I find about Zuko's age I will present. From my current knowledge, however, I have not seen anything that supports the theory that Zuko has had a birthday since the pilot. Know that until we find canonical evidence supporting otherwise, there will be at least 5 people at all times ready to revert your changes. H2P 05:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I can prove that he is 17, using the show. Corect me at any time. Iroh mentions that Zuko is 16. In episode 3, Zuko make that "If my Father thinks the rest of the world will fallow him willingly, the he's a fool" comment to Zhao. Zhao interns, says "TWO YEARS at sea have done little to temper your tounge". Now, fastforward to season 2. The 3 year anaversery HAS to mean that he is, infact 17. Because as you said, "He has not celebrated a BirthDay in the show." For all we know, his BirthDay was during the weeks fallowing the Seige of the North, which only continude with Iroh comment. Now, feel free to go back and check my work. Episode 3, 20, 21, and what ever episode you wish that mentions has age, as there are a few. Now, good night. Oh, it's Sayasha, not Saysha. ^^ ~Sayasha


 * Conversely, for all we know he just turned 16 over the summer before the show started. Just because Zhao says two years does not mean that it was EXACTLY two years at that point, indeed, it would be impossible for it to have been exactly two years and then for the third anniversary to be in the beginning of season two, because seasons one and two take place over the space of a few months. What you've stated is not proof. You're still missing the point. As long as we don't know when Zuko's birthday is and a year hasn't passed since the show began then you cannot know whether he's turned 17 yet because you do not know that he was 14 during his Agni Kai. You know that it was two years before. That does not mean he was 14. He could have been 13 and then turned 14 months AFTER his Agni Kai. Which would mean that he wouldn't turn 17 until three years later months AFTER the anniversary of his Agni Kai, thus meaning that the anniversary of his Agni Kai would mean nothing in relation to how old he is. This has been explained multiple times in multiple ways and it's still true. You cannot verify that he is 17, therefore his age stays listed as 16 until his being 17 can be verified. Raceberry 10:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

When Avatar started, Nick.com said "Sixteen-year-old". In episode 8 for example, Iroh said Zuko was 16. This was also the Winter Sostice episode. Then, season 2, had the first few days of spring. Zuko's birthday doesnt have to fall in the fall or summer just because he's a Fire Bender.~Sayasha


 * You aren't even listening to us anymore. Zhao's comment has nothing to do with Zuko's birthday, only the timeframe of the Agni Kai and we have no idea how old he was then. Hell, he could have turned 16 the day before Boy in the Iceberg.  The fact is, there are 12 months in a year meaning that while the Agni Kai took place in the beginning of Spring, that does not mean his birthday was in the months before that.  At the same time we don't know how old Zuko was during the Agni Kai which also causes problems.  Only until the first year anniversary of Aang's arrival will we know Zuko to have gotten a year older.  Now stop editing the posts, I already told you that there are multiples of us that will just change it right back.  It's not easy to update the Avatar related pages if we keep having to babysit this one.

Ok, tell me. How do we know that the Agni Ki was in Spring? Hm? For all we know, it was in the Summer. And thats going by your facts. Now, do you really think that Iroh would let a 13 year old into the War Room? And on the Zhao comment, ya, it has relavince here. This is the steps to prove Zuko is 17. 1. Go to Nick.com and select Avatar on the bottom menu. 2. Select characters, and choose Zuko. 3. Read the part where it says:"sixteen-year-old Zuko s a big bully". 4. Then got watch episode 3, where Zuko and Zhao are talking in the tent.(It's in the first 10 minutes) 5. Watch episode 8.(It's in the title) 6. minus 16 and 2, to get 14. 7. Now watch episode 21, where Zuko first come in.(I have no idea where it is...) 8. Watch episode 28.(The beggining) Now, you should gather that Zuko is 16 in the first season, banished 2 years prier to episode 3, that the next season that they are in in the first seaon is Winter, once again, that Zuko is 16, 2-16=14, in episode 21 they have been gone, floating for weeks, Zuko has been banished for 3 years, and that Spring is now starting. ~Sayasha


 * It's the shows facts that the Agni Kai was in the Spring or late Winter. The anniversary was in Avatar State which took place between the end of winter and spring. And you are still not listening to facts about months of the year. It's not winter "once again", they are in the NORTH POLE. "Now, do you really think that Iroh would let a 13 year old into the War Room?" Why not, he is future prince and would eventually need experience as a tactician, why would only one year make a difference? And no, the Anniversary of the Agni Kai has NO relevence to Zuko's age because we don't know his birthday.

Amazingly, I'm getting tierd of arguing, but still, I wont admit I'm wrong. Fallow the shows logic. It's all in there. Even my friend who is blind, and hard of hearing can understand that Zuko is 17, just from the show. Just watch the show, and tell me that Zuko cant be 17. The creators of Avatar said that there is a 2 year difference from Azula and Zuko. I don thtink that Azula is 14. And I know it's not winter once again. Thats a "No duh!" part. No one is inplying that it is winter again, but you who is mentioning it. And for my reason behind the War Room part, Zuko, if he hadnt been banished, would never rule during the war. Sences the war was to end soon. And, the current Fire Lord chooses who his/her heir will be. Ozai didnt have to choose Zuko to be the next Fire Lord.~Sayasha

Fuck it. I'm not arguing this anymore if you aren't going to listen. You have no canonical evidence so you might as well stop because every time you change it we'll simply change it back.

It's better to try and fail, then to not try at all. A simple code of my religion. And I'm fallowing the shows info. Even my mom can tell you that he's 17. And she has only seen 5 episodes. All my evidance flows, unlike yours. Mine is logical, fallowing the story's plot. Yours, is all speculational. It's not me that needs to go back, it is you. Even if Zuko's BirthDay was the day before The Boy in the IceBerg, he would still be 17. ~By now, you know who I am

Okay. Let's look at what your argument for his age being 17 is deductively:


 * Argument: Statement #1:
 * Ground 1: Zuko is known to be 16 in the first season, and
 * Ground 2: Zuko is known to be "at sea" for approximately 2 years, and
 * Ground 3: 16 - 2 = 14
 * Claim:  Therefore, Zuko is 14 at the time of his banishment.

Assuming the above claim is true, we can then move on to next statement, which that claim now serving as one of the grounds.


 * Argument: Statement #2:
 * Ground 1: Zuko is 14 at the time of his banishment, and
 * Ground 2: Zuko's 3rd anniversary of when he was banished falls in the first episode of Season 2,
 * Claim: Therefore, Zuko is 17 is Season 2.

Now, the issue that I have and most of the other editors here have is concerning is that the grounds in Statement #1 do not prove its claim; specifically, that more grounds than have been presented are required to make the claim. The following are my counterarguments:


 * Counterargument: Statement #1
 * Ground 1: Zhao stated Zuko has been at sea for 2 years at the beginning of Season 1, and
 * Ground 2: Zuko's 3rd-year anniversary occured a few months later,
 * Claim:   Therefore, Zuko has been banished for longer than 2 exact years at the beginning of Season 1.


 * Counterargument: Statement #2
 * Ground 1: Zuko is over the exact age of 16 during Season 1 (let A represent his true age), and
 * Ground 2: Zuko has been banished for longer than 2 years at the beginning of Season 1 (let T represent the actual amount of time passed), and
 * Ground 3: A - T = Zuko's exact age at time of banishment (X)
 * Claim: X > 14 OR X < 14, with either result being equally plausible.

To illustrate this last claim, assume that his true age (A) at the beginning of Season 1 is 16 years, 6 months (A = 16.5 years), and that the exact time that he's been banished (T) is 2 years, 6 months (T = 2.5). Now, let's do the math:


 * A - T = X
 * 16.5 - 2.5 = 14

In this case, it is shown that he was indeed 14 years old when he banished, and thus would be 17 three years later. However, consider the following equally plausible scenario: assume that his exact age at the beginning of Season 1 (A) is 16 years, 3 months (A = 16.25) and that the exact time that he's been banished (T) is 2 years, 9 months (T = 2.75). Now, let's do the math:


 * A - T = X
 * 16.25 - 2.75 = 13.5

If Zuko is 13 and a half years old at the time of his banishment, then quite obviously, it does not equate that his 3rd year anniversary means that he is 17; it means that he is 16 and a half.

Now, because we do not know A or T, and all we can do is guess, we cannot say for certain what his true age is, being it 16 or 17. However, we do know that Zuko is 16 in season 1, and for the purposes of Wikipedia we cannot assume that he has become 17 (as such is unverifiable information), and as such, the age listed on the page should remain 16 to represent the knowledge we do know, which is that Zuko being 16 years of age in the series is the only verifiable information we have concerning his age.

Peace. Prototime 02:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

(No argument meant this time!) Why, since as you stated, he could 16 or 17, dont we just put "Age: 16/17"? That would settle this argument. I mean, I see the logic you put up there. Which is the FIRST set of logic I've seen. So, since he could be eathor or, why dont we just leave it like it is? (16/17) ~Sayasha
 * I'd prefer to keep it 16 for the sake of strict verifiability, but I can see your reasoning for mentioning that it's possible he's turned 17, since based on the above logic it is at least possible, and I can compromise on that. His age now reads "16 (possibly 17 by Season 2)".  Of course, I can't speak for how the other editors feel, and they may disagree with any inclusion of 17.  At least, though, you now understand my logic of why he isn't definetley 17. :) Prototime 04:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Not tryign to be.. well, I dont know what you'll call it, but I understood your logic. I just didnt really agree with it, like many dont agree with mine. Thats all really. But I do agree with the compermise, though my friend doesnt. But ohwell. Both logics are matched. I think I can get her to rap her head around that. ^_^~Sayasha
 * First? That's what we've been saying the entire time only we havn't been using algebra to explain it. Anyway, as long as it's put out there that the only information known is that he is 16, I'm fine with that. -H2P

^_^ Sorry, I cant understand math unless it's in Algebra. I had to have my friend type up most of my math. I think that could be 1 reason that this took over 2 weeks. ^_Sayasha

Ok, we had an agreemant. 16 (possibly 17 by Season 2). I couldnt have changed it because I was out for surgery, so dont start useing foul lanuage on a website that teachers request students to use for projects! And those who are changing it, until someone says Zuko is 17, IT STAYS LIKE THAT!

I guess that makes sense, but on the other hand, by that logic, shouldn't Sokka's page say (possibly 16 by season 2) and Katara's page say (possibly 15 by season 2) etc.?


 * Bangs head on wall* H2P 23:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * My sentiments exactly... the only reason that Zuko's deserves any "special" attention is because he had a *three year anniversary* of being at sea, and it's uncertain if he's 13 or 14 at the time of his banishment. None of the other characters have such a milestone that suggest it's possible that they aged; the simple change between seasons isn't enough to warrant the possibility of aging for other characters--it just so happens that the beginning of season 2 and Zuko's third-year anniversary happen on the same episode, and that's why it says it's possible by season 2.  Now can we please just let this issue die all ready? Prototime 01:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

OKAY!!!!!!! YOU GUYS ARE DRIVING ME CRAZY!!!!!!! I WANNA KNOW HOW OLD ZUKO IS!!!!!!!! I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE LOGIC!!!!!! JUST ASK THE F**KING AVATAR PRODUCERS!!!!!!!!!!! JEESE!!!!!!! THEY'LL TELL YOU!!!! IN FACT, F**K THIS, I'M GONNA GO ASK THEM MYSELF!!!!!! WHEN I KNOW, YOU'LL KNOW!!!!!! THERE!!!!!! STOP ARGUING!!!!! (sorry...I'll try to control myself next time...) Zutara-Princess


 * Well, really, if you think about it, it's chronologically impossible for Zuko to be 16, based on evidence from the show. In "The Southern Air Temple", Zuko said that he'd been hunting the Avatar for two years, since the day of his banishment. This was later revealed to be the day of the Agni Kai. Iroh later comments that Zuko has "done some foolish things in [his] sixteen years", so we know he was sixteen at the time. Sixteen minus two is fourteen, meaning that he MUST have been fourteen on the day of the Agni Kai. Three years have passed since then, as of "The Avatar State", meaning that he's DEFINATELY 17 now...which may mean that other main characters (Sokka, in particular) may have had a birthday since season one began. Besides, several months have passed since season two began, so either way, he's turned seventeen by now.

Oh, to the user above...I'm not trying to be rude, but the cursing isn't appreciated. 24.154.137.15 21:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven
 * Please read all the notes above. There is still no actual proof that Zuko has aged. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 06:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, wow; that was ALOT of reading. Honestly, I think Zuko would probably be 17 if he was a real person. But he's not, and so we can't really know, because there probably isn't a set day where every character in the story ages like in real life. If it was my desision I would say "16 (perhaps 17)," because this is all we really know, he's been named 16, but could perhaps be 17, simple as that.


 * Hey, H2P. I'm kinda in the middle of moving right now, so I don't really have time to read all of these comments at the moment (I'll try to check it out later, if I have time). But anyway, I admit, I'm no math wiz; I'm SO right-brained it's ridiculous, but I still don't see how Zuko could possibly be sixteen. I mean...the math's right there. I realize you're trying to keep all options open, but I just don't see how it's possible (again, literature is my thing, not math, so...). Yeah, the time of year in which the Agni Kai took place could be taken into consideration, but since several months have passed since season two began, I don't think it really matters at this point.24.154.137.15 00:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

Right, my eyes have officially rolled into the back of my head now. Everyone trying to change his name to seventeen: stop. Just stop. You guys can talk about math all you want (I'm a math guy myself), but flashing some addition's not gonna work here. We don't know how old Zuko was when he was banished, k? We know he WAS sixteen, and haven't gotten any confirmation that his birthday has come around since the beginning of the series. We just know that he's been banished for over three years.

I don't see this huge debate going on in Aang's page. Why not? The kid WAS 112 when the series started, how do we know his birthday hasn't happened? Or Katara's or Sokka's? Heck, WHY DOES THE AGE MATTER SO MUCH!? JUST ACCEPT WHAT NICK.COM TELLS YOU AND STOP MAKING IT LOOK LIKE IT'S SUCH A BIG DEAL! Y BCZ 01:03, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. Personally, I think they've ALL had a birthday, but nobody discusses all that. Why don't they just make it "sixteen (possibly seventeen)"? That would make everybody happy. I guess it's good to know, but it doesn't impact the show, really. The only reason you'd NEED to know about it is if you need the information for your fanfiction/art, in which case, since it's fanfiction, nobody cares if it's a little off because it's YOUR opinion. RIGHT ON, Y BCZ!!! It's REALLY not that big of a deal. We'll live.24.154.137.15 02:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

What??
What the hell is this shit and why does Wikipedia direct me here when I search for "zuzu"? Shouldn't I be directed to the It's a Wonderful Life page rather than some Nick kid's show?? V. embarrassing to Wikipedia. If you guys think this is the place for complex and massively detailed articles about obscure cartoons, that's your right, but please don't make unrelated searches go to your page. 160.39.187.92 (talk) 16:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

if you want to lok up its a wonderful life, then type in its a wonderful life. geez. Zuzu was a nickname a character gave this specific character, if you type it in, youll come here.Dragon queen4ever (talk) 19:38, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Season 3 picture
Anyone else think it's time to update his picture to one more current? It doesn't look as if his hair will change much more, and besides, we're 1/2 way through the season, if you've seen Day of Black Sun by now. GdaMan 03:16, 12 November 2007 (UTC) GdaMan

i agree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnny NovA (talk • contribs) 11:07, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed as well, though of course no one has seen the illegally leaked Day of Black Sun yet >.> 春Harukaze風 19:48, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, now that DoBS has officially aired all over the world, I think now is a very good opportunity, to change Zuko's picture (as well as other characters' pictures). He doesn't look like that anymore, and I'm not referring to the hair, but to the emotion you see on his face. His new look is more calm, mature, and less confused, and that's the kind of picture that should be up. Not to mention, we are half-way through the final season and he is the most dynamic character. GdaMan (talk) 21:04, 15 December 2007 (UTC)GdaMan

i also believe the same he is now a differen person a different look and besides the other is to old, we could move it somewhere else in the article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.157.118.28 (talk) 14:08, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Day of Black Sun spoilers
Will people please bother to check the article for spoilers? There are spoilers that need to be removed on the personality section and the relationship with Ursa section. 68.175.106.168 (talk) 05:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC) There are still spoilers on the personality section. 68.175.106.168 (talk) 17:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Now there are spoilers on the Ursa and Aang sections. Remove them. 68.175.106.168 (talk) 21:48, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

how about no. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.46.59.179 (talk) 23:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Scar
Tears is spelled wrong in the article- it's incorrectly spelled "teers"

His scar may heal someday, as it is said that a scar lingers until the argument between the man who caused it and the man who owns it has been resolved. In other words until Zuko has claimed the throne.


 * Umm...........WHO says this?--Darkling235 03:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It's just speculation and theories, which are not fit for this page H2P 05:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The scar on his face will never heal. If is were going to, it would have already. ~Sayasha


 * Not to mention that scars fade not heal because technically scar tissue is what's left over after a wound has already healed, thus making "healing a scar" an oxymoron. And, as Sayasha already said, if his scar was going to fade it would have long ago. Raceberry 10:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think his scar will ever be healed. It's a part of him now.


 * It depends. Personally, I think Zuko's scar could be used as somthing symbolic in the show, as an example of him healing from the wounds of the past (I wrote an entire multi-chaptered fanfiction about this theory, so I've been working on it for a while). Now scars CAN heal. I've had scars that are there for a few years, but they gradually fade and disappear as the tissue mends. The thing is, Zuko's scar is so large (and likely, more than skin deep), that it wouldn't completely heal on its own. There IS a possibility, however, that if Zuko ever joins the gaang, Katara could heal the scar completely with Waterbending (though I imagine it would likely be on accident). Mind you that's just a theory, completely unconfirmed, but it's still a possibility.24.154.137.15 03:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven
 * sigh* Read Raceberry's post above, he wasn't pulling the scar information out of his ass. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 03:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * In fairness, though, when you have a character with pseudo-magical healing powers, who knows what might happen?--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 04:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * True, but all the "Katara healing Zuko's scar" stuff is just stuff Zutara fans use in their fan-fiction. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 15:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I put a lot of stuff in my fanfiction that I don't actually think will happen (healing scar, Suki is an Earthbender, ect.). It's just for the sake of making the story interesting. Lots of people do that, actually (since you're not really big on pairings, I guess you don't read a lot of fanfiction, so...). I don't think Katara will heal Zuko's scar, but it's a possibility...besides, there ARE places in the show where real-life rules are disregarded. And, as the "Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children" creators once defined the rules for making a good anime show/movie, the only rule was this: "Who cares as long as it looks cool?". Oh, and yeah, I agree, with a character who has magical/Waterbending powers, who KNOWS what could happen. She unblocked a dude's CHI for goodness' sake!208.122.69.38 15:38, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

if you're thinking of it lodgically from the creater's point of view- it would kind of ruin the mystery of zuko... i think so any way. if you're thinking of it lodgically from the real life point of view- it would have healed by now if it was going to- my sister got fire burns (on xmas eve 2, not fun!) and they went away after like a week or two (or more... i forget). if it was going away, it would of by now.


 * Not necessarily. I've had SMALL scars that are there for years before they totally fade (that's, of course, without some kind of treatment). I also know a girl who was severely burned by scolding water, and she STILL has the scars from that, and I belive that's been several years ago. Zuko's scar is HUGE, so there's no way it'd be healed by now, since it's only been three years...but I agree, it DOES ruin his mystery to heal it. I don't really think it'll happen, it's mostly Zutara fluff (YEA ZUTARA!!!), though it's not impossible.24.154.137.15 00:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven


 * In the trailer for the Book 2 Season Finale (Which I absolutely cannot wait two weeks for!), a scene is shown where Katara is holding the amulet Pakku gave her filled with water in from the Oasis in one hand and touching his scar with the other. It's possible it could be healed during the course of the series.
 * I will say this ONCE and only once and after that I will not and should not have to say it again on this talk page. Ahem. THERE WILL NOT BE ANY INFORMATION ABOUT FUTURE SHOWS PUT ON THIS BIOGRAPHY UNTIL IT IS CANON (which means, when it airs). ANY ADDING OF SHIPPING, FANCRUFT, AND SPECULATION WILL BE DELETED. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 06:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * What about Harry Potter's scar. It hasn't healed, so Zuko's scar probably wont heal eather.


 * Did Bryan Konietzko or Michael Dante DiMartino state they would follow all everything that was written in the Harry Potter books, no, therefore you can't use them to point say something can or will happen in a completely different work of fiction. Joeking16 (talk) 21:33, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but I'm saying that scars don't nessesarly fade. Harry's didn't, and Zuko's probably wont. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.108.156.189 (talk) 20:15, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Season Two picture
I put the picture that I originally uploaded back, my reasoning being that it's a better crop without the giant "Nick" logo on it, and whereas the other picture was very heavily shadowed and farther away, this one is clear, closer-up, you can see his scar better, and it's just an all-around better picture, IMO. Not to mention it depicts Zuko looking ornery, but determined which I think is a very good representation of his general character as opposed to the other picture where he's more or less staring forward expressionlessly. Raceberry 05:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Any picture of Zuko is fine with me. :-)

We need a season 3 pic. His hair is different now, the picture sould change. Nice picture you had though —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.108.156.189 (talk) 20:18, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Hair Color
You guys are always going to find something to start an edit war over aren't you. Alright, we'll have a vote to close next Friday. Is it Brown or is it Black? The problem comes in that in Book One, it was easily black. However, since growing his hair it looks lighter. However, I'm going to blame this new light color on his constant shaving of it and/or the dust and dirt he now surrounds himself with. So I vote Black H2P 06:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Black for reasons above. --Crisu 13:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Black; ditto. Prototime 05:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I vote Black aswell --redsparta 05:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I vote black too
 * Black. Raceberry 11:10, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Brown...just kidding...black
 * It's BROWN you idiots —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.187.69.141 (talk) 21:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

No to say much, but when he was younger, his hair was Brown, even before he was banished. Now, it could be coming back to it's normal color..... Just saying. ~Sayasah

I agree with all of you... I vote Black. His hair does look brown when he is younger, but I think it is because of the constant sunlight he was in when he was younger. I mean, he lived in the Fire Nation, if he wasn't in the sun he was around some other constant source of light or fire. And besides, it's always sunny there, save for night time. When he was banished, he spent a lot of his time in his room as well, so the sun couldn't bleach his hair. Now, as in second season, he is outside a lot more, probably due to the fact that he is a traveler and doesn't have a room to hide in. The sun actually has some time to bleach his hair. + the dirt thing, that too. But in secret of the fire nation, you could tell if you looked close enough that his hair was black. Still, please people, don't go pressing your noses against the tv...you know....don't wanna be responsible for any eye-trauma...~Zutara-Princess--Don't forget th rabies! Everything tastes better with rabies!! 05:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed that his hair turns black when he's near large bodies of water. His brown hair might turn black when its et or damp. - Count Mall

Zuko's hair is black. The only reason why it looks brown, is becuase he hasn't taken a bath in a really long time, so there is dirt, dust and grime on his hair. In SOFN, Zuko seems to have at least washed his hair or gotten all the grime out of it. - The Dragon's Daughter.

Another thing to consider about Zuko's hair when he's younger is that the coloring and light used is slightly different. Why? Because it denotes a flashback, just as how sounds echo very slightly in the same sequences.

I'm gonna have to say that it's dark brown. When Zuko was shown at fourteen in "The Storm", his hair was obviously brown, and it looks brown now that it's shorter. Also, Azula obviously has dark brown hair, and since they're siblings, that could be taken into consideration.24.154.137.15 03:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

The only reason his hair looked brown was because Zuko's flashbacks are always in different lighting (more brownish).Momoroxmysoxoff 21:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

While I would say his hair is black- you should also compare it to, like, Toph's hair, which is black.

In relation to the above, this is true. For example, MY hair is VERY dark brown, and people always think it's black. But if compared to my sister, who DOES have black hair, you can see that it's brown. The whole lighting thing, yeah, that could be accredited to the flashback animation changes (everything does seem to take on an odd hue), but that doesn't change the fact that, in current time, both Zuko and Azula have clearly brown hair. This is especially obvious if compared to Toph whose hair is easily black, as defined by the creators.24.154.137.15 00:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven
 * My hair is also very dark brown, it tends to change color slightly with season/sun exposure getting more brown or more black depending. 216.176.105.92 13:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I have black hair and I know, when you have little hair, you can see your skin through the hair, so it won't look dark. As it grows, it becomes thicker and darker.

I looked at the fire nation page on wikipedia and Zuko's hair is black because people in the fire nation usually have dark brown to black hair. And honestly it's almost the same thing. :)

I vote for... black ! -Itachiluvor

It is black, Zuko and Azula have black hair. Zuko's hair just gets lighter because of the sun.

Definetly black. I mean, he only has brown hair in book 2 'cause he's in so much sun. Also, dust could make it look brown

Quick Note
Ok, not to bring this up, after the 1 month chat about it, but there is a slit "Zuko's age problem" to tend to. Not big, dont worry. Just the part, where it says that "..Zuko was about 10-years-old...". Can we really put that in? I mean, with about in there, it kinda flys, but since his age at the time is not known, can it be on there. for all we know, he was only 8-years-old. wich, doesnt pass well with the 10-years-old part. Just saying. ~Sayasha
 * I think it was originally put there because that's about the age he looked. Other than that, I changed it so as to not cause any more... whatever, too much crap for one night. H2P 07:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I put that in there for the purposes of specificity, my source being the official site where it states in Azulon's bio that he died six years ago. Raceberry 07:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I think Zuko was ten when his mother died/vanished/disappeared/went missing. -The Dragon's Daughter. Quick Note - Zuko's mother was actually banished by the Firelord in exchange for sparing Zuko's life as a child. She may or may not still be alive and Zuko plans to find her after he joins the Avatar. - Scotty Boy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.91.195.244 (talk) 03:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The Triva for Zuko... yeah, has anyone noticed it? The two Chinese kanji characters making up his name Zu meaning the ancsetral tomb/ancestors and Kou meaning to rob, pillage/ rob. In that light, his name would mean something like this: Robber of the Ancestral Tomb. Or something along those lines. Just thought I might throw it out there, I always thought Zuko would mean honorable. - The Dragon's Daughter

Has anyone noticed that both forms of his name include a character about something ancestoral?

Bending
Why isn't there a section about Zuko's bending? We have one for Aang, Katara and Toph, so why not Zuko? At least something about his fighting style or sowards. September 26 15:45 Momoroxmysoxoff
 * Wow... I just now noticed that there isn't one. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 19:56, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There still isn't one. What's up? Doesn't anyone want to do it? 202.72.187.152 16:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * What's stopping you? I just haven't had the time. I get on, need to revert 50 some things, then I go do my other stuff outside of Wiki. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 18:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I added one, but I don't think it's up to standards... Zygger 18:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * From there we can atleast edit it. As I proved below, though, there is no blue fire used in City of Walls and Secrets. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 18:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Lengthy
This is getting kind of long guys. I suggest adding more pictures in the relationships section, something like Zuko fighting Jet or talking to Jin or whatever. What we need is distractors that allow you to scroll down and not see a huge body of text. I know how everyone loves an anti-hero, but this body of information is huge compared to Aang and his group. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 06:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm on it. ^_^ -Redsparta 06:39, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Due to size and content I request that we put this page up for re-grading. I have no idea how to do this though. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 19:14, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, this doesn't exactly relate to topic, H2P, but I don't think it's quite fair to call Zuko the "anti-hero". Yes, in season one, he was certainly introduced as a pure antogonist, but we're slowly finding out that he's not evil or bad, just bitter. The only thing (only FACTUAL thing, I should say) that really motivates me to say this is that Zuko has had almost no, if ANY, hostile encounters with the gaang this season, which kinda rules him out as being the anti-hero. He's more like...hero-in-training now.24.154.137.15 03:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven


 * Try making sure you know what a term means before criticizing someone's use of it. Zuko's an anti-hero alright, you just don't know what H2P means by it. Y BCZ 20:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe the definition of "anti-hero" is someone who comes in conflict with the hero or has particularly anti-heroic character traits, or traits that aren't generally associated with the hero. As of season two, Zuko has had virtually no conflict with the gaang, ruling him out as someone who goes against the hero. This season, he has also been presented as a basically honorable person, not someone without a moral code. Yes, I could have taken H2P's meaning the wrong way, but with the use of that word, that's how it came across to me. Just sayin'.

And, once again, I'm REALLY not trying to start something, but I don't appreciate your insulting my intelligence. Contrary to popular belief here, I'm NOT stupid.

I am not insulting your intelligence, I am expressing frustration over your insistence on a subject that you obviously do not possess complete knowledge of. An anti-hero is not one who goes against the hero of a series-that's the villain, or antagonist. An anti-hero is a protagonist or hero of a story that possesses particularly unheroic traits-a bank robber could be the hero of his own story, for example, but he's not a very heroic person. Zuko has certainly expressed unheroic qualities throughout the series but has, of late, been cast in the role of a protagonist. Y BCZ 22:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Like I said, Zuko was introduced as an antogonist. Depending on what qualities you take to be anti-heroic, yes, Zuko could be considered the anti-hero, which is why I say that I could have taken H2P's comment the wrong way. But in MY mind, Zuko isn't the anti-hero (I'm speaking of season two, not season one, by the way), so I don't exactly consider it fair to lable him as such. Think of it this way: Have you ever played Final Fantasy VIII? The main character, Squall Leonhart, was the reluctant leader/protagonist, but that didn't make him the anti-hero, despite his obvious (if few) anti-heroic qualities. If you look up "anti-hero", you'll probably find that the anti-hero is someone who goes against the hero OR has particularly anti-heroic character traits. I've already stated that. And I'm not exactly dumb on the subject of literary terms, so don't say that I don't possess knowledge of them. Please don't think me arrogant, but as an author, I intend to major in literature and creative writing, so I DO have prior knowledge about these things...especially when the elements of fantasy and story and character construction are involoved, such as with the term "anti-hero"...But we've completely gotten off topic anyway. *shrugs* Oh well.24.154.137.15 00:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven


 * Okay, please just look at wiki's article on the anti-hero and explain to me how Zuko doesn't fit it. He's been a protagonist in various instances, right? Okay, so he's been the hero. Now, has he done stuff that's not heroic? Well, he's resorted to robbing and beating people up to get what he wants, so yes. And this happens in season two. Zuko has, indeed, shown that he can be a very honorable person, for instance by defending the town in "Zuko Alone" and refusing to steal from a pregnant woman. An anti-hero is not a scum-bag, okay? Let's not take the term too far. As the wiki states, the anti-hero is basically Batman: working for the greater cause through often unchivalrous ways. Now, Zuko supposedly freed Appa in "Lake Laogai", right? He's a hero for that. But why did he go there in the first place? To try to find a way to capture Aang. An anti-hero is known for achieving heroic ends through non-heroic means or intent, and Zuko has done that on various occasions. Not just in season two, either: remember that he first donned the identity of the Blue Spirit in order to save Aang from Zhao (heroic) so that he could capture him later (anti-heroic). Y BCZ 03:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay. I'll give ya that. I suppose it's partially my fault; I admit to always being biased in Zuko's favor, because he's my favorite character. I just dislike the term "anti-hero". To me, anti-hero, (although it CAN be applied to Zuko in the way in which you've said), though it isn't necessarily the exact meaning, is generally taken to mean something bad. I don't consider Zuko the anti-hero, because he's obviously meant to be taken as a basically honorable person. Actually, if you analyze Zuko's very animation, he has physical traits that are associated with gallantry in anime.208.122.69.38 15:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

The blue streaks...
In the Jet section of Zuko's relationship article, I noticed that there is a sentece that reads like this: "Some believe the light streaks from the tip of his broadswords are lightning--this is not so. When he slashes his swords through the air, the streaks are simply a trail of light from the sword" This is blasphemy. A mere "trail of light" would not be able to slice the toothpick in Jet's mouth clean in half. Also note that the blue streaks had only come from Zuko's blades later on in the fight moments before the police had arrived, and how it was emphasized when first shown cutting Jet's toothpick. The streaks that were shown early in the fight were clear and white, as opposed to the clearly blue-edged lights that eventually began to emit from Zuko's broad-swords. I don't know where anyone comes off saying that these were "simply a trail of light"; the only explanation is that this is either blue flame or lightning. Don't forget that as of recently Zuko's personality hs changed from being arrogant and angered to noticeably more calm and collected as if in control of his emotions better, which is what a firebender requires to bend lightning. Unless of course there is some sort of official material that states otherwise, I suggest the thory of lightning stays a primary possibility, as the light was far too distictive to be just an after-image of some kind.
 * You're an idiot. Jet's weapons did the same thing, go rewatch it and stop speculating your secret fetish of Zuko. It's eye candy, not lightning, not blue fire, eye candy. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 08:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * That's precisely what I did before even typing this article, and I clearly saw that only Zuko's blade's emmitted that blue light. The closest time I saw to Jet's blades making that similar light were when Zuko was slashing on the left and/or right of the screen. I based this article on observation, not fanboyism like your little reply seemed to assume. It is as they say, an assumption will make you an "ass" and the "ump" will "tion" you, and right now, you're that ass.
 * Quite frankly...prove it. You want to add something, the burden of proof is on you, not the other way around. And, anyway, I'd say blue fire seems more likely than lightening, since what we’ve seen of lighting requires a lot of fairly visible hand motions. Also, I'd encourage EVERYBODY (yes, you were both wrong) to cut out the name calling. And no, that somebody did it first doesn’t make it OK.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 19:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe my opening statement was proof enough that there is at least more to the streaks than just special effects. Whether it was either blue flames or lightning in particular isn't what I'm getting at, just that it's more than likely one or the other; perhaps a form of foreshadowing. My goal isn't to add this thought to the actual Wiki, but just to get my point across that, as I said before, it's pretty far-fetched to think that such a disticntive blue light was just an after-effect if it could slice a solid object—as thin as that particular object may have been—in half.
 * I've been told to smile more and be nicer in my corrections so here: Jet creating spark. Twice. The SWORD cutting the toothpick and the blue light never getting close to it can be seen here. As you can see, it's an after image used for eye candy because the scene itself is so dark. What happens on the side view is that the light created moves like a C. but a sideview of a C is just a straight line so it looks like the streak is cutting it but in fact the streak never touches the twig in Jet's mouth. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 23:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, I've looked at the screen caps, and they're right. The tooth pick doesn't break until several seconds AFTER Zuko's sword goes by (I admit, I didn't notice when watching the show, I had to check the captures). I don't think it's lightning though. More likely, it's just blue flames, a hotter form of his usual Firebending.24.154.137.15 03:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven
 * That still ignores the problem that Jet's sword had the same effect. This image, linked by H2P up a bit, shows that pretty clearly. I'd credit any weirdness with the toothpick's falling to the general weirdness of that scene's animation.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 03:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, yeah, but I think the dialogue kinda implies that Zuko was Firebending, because immediately after the sword went by and the toothpick broke, Jet leapt back and said, "Ya see that? The Fire Nation's trying to silence me!", as if he'd seen Zuko bending, and assumed that the onlookers had seen as well. A different shot of the light/sword cutting the toothpick can be seen here. But, again, it CAN be accredited to this scene's odd animation.24.154.137.15 01:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven


 * The reason Jet said that was because Zuko reacted to Jet's comments ("Bet you wish he'd help you out with a little fire blast, huh?" and such) by coming about two inches from slicing his nose off. Note that Jet was looking for some sign, ANY sign, that Zuko was a Firebender, so he could've been referring to anything about him. It wouldn't make sense for him to point out a flash of light from the tip of Zuko's sword if his own weapons produced the same visual effect (especially considering Jet is probably far more familiar with his hook swords than a couple of swords Zuko pulled off a random Earth Kingdom soldier). The fight scene was dark, the animators needed some way to make it look flashier. So they stuck a couple of flashes of light in. Y BCZ 02:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Why are people still arguing this? I clearly proved the theory wrong completely with just 3 pictures. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 04:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * To H2P: I'm not arguing, I'm just saying it could go either or. The odd animation of that scene makes it hard to tell. To Y BCZ: Isn't it odd how no matter WHERE he is, Zuko ALWAYS has access to broadswords...?24.154.137.15 12:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven


 * The most likely reason Zuko keeps broadswords around is because he's good with them, and as long as he's in the Earth Kingdom, he needs a way to fight without firebending. Exhibit A 16:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, Zuko's broadswords weren't his originals-they're the ones he swiped off a random Earth Kingdom man early in Book 2. The swords he uses against Jet belong to an Earth Kingdom soldier (you can see the soldier is about to draw the swords, but Zuko just walks up behind him and snatches them out of the sheath). It's not too odd that two Earth Kingdom men out of the several hundred that Zuko and Iroh have come across happened to own twin broadswords, especially considering the location of the tea shop. A lot of their customers are probably soldiers stationed on the outer-most wall, and the Earth Kingdom's soldiers wield a very wide selection of weapons (as opposed to the Fire Nation's hordes of spearmen). Of course, this point doesn't really matter. What matters is we can't tell for sure (and several think it's doubtful) that Zuko Firebended in that scene. It's all speculation, therefore DON'T put it on the page. If Zuko says something like "Jet forced me to Firebend against him in that fight," then sure, go ahead. But as far as we know, Zuko hasn't learned blue Firebending or lightning yet. Note that the only time he's Firebended since was in Tales of Ba Sing Se, and then his flames were the normal orange. The point is this: you have no proof, stop arguing about it.


 * Once again: Not arguing. I'm keeping all options open. But, agreed, until it's confirmed, keep it off the page.208.122.69.29 15:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven
 * The option shouldn't be kept open! I've proved it wrong above, why won't anyone look at the damn pictures I posted? Here, I'll post them again: Jet creating spark. Twice. The SWORD cutting the toothpick and the blue light never getting close to it can be seen here.
 * This is really quite pointless to argue, H2P pretty much proved that the streaks aren't any type of bending with the pictures of Jet. I'm positive that the streaks are just afterimages of the sword ex. When you swing a sword really fast an afterimage is created when light is reflected of it. That's all it is, light. -Jammity 14:36 18 Nov.

Requested Move
See Talk: Uncle Iroh to discuss. Please do not discuss the move here, follow the link.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 21:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Personality Section
It seems to me that the Personality section is a little... awkward? I don't know if someone wants to try integratting it better with the rest of the article, I was just passing through and noticed it left a little something to be desired grammatically, so I did my best giving it a makeover.Sean Patrick Santos 23:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Sokka
Are the details in the relationship between Sokka and Zuko important enough for there to be a section devoted to it? H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 04:34, 7 October 2006 (UTC)+

I agree. I doubt that Zuko even notices that Sokka even exists. Momoroxmysoxoff


 * Yeah...it isn't that important...but Zuko DOES know that Sokka exists. In "The Waterbending Scroll", Zuko told Katara that he wouldn't hurt her or HER BROTHER if she told him where Aang was. Just throwin' that in there. 24.154.137.15 21:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

Too, in the episode "Crossroads of Destiny" when Aang says he'll help get Zuko and Katara back, Sokka says he isn't going to rescue Zuko at all. Then Iroh says there is good in him, and Sokka remarks tell us when it's outside him too. And Zuko knows who Sokka is because in the episodes, "The boy in the iceburg" he fights Sokka and beats him up.

Personality Section: NPOV
"At first, Zuko lashes out and turns to robbery, even to those who are kind to him. However, over time, Zuko begins to calm himself and act in a better way"

A 'better' way? $$Insert formula here$$

Um...I changed something on the trivia section. Lee/Li (however you want to spell it) also means "Strength" in Chinese. Its a Chinese boy's name. I got this information off of a Chinese baby name websight. -DJZutara and Taang FOREVER 04:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)(PS: My username is Dragon Jadefire, but I go by DJ)

Lake Laogai spoilers
Should there be spoilers for Lake Laogai {and unaired episodes in general} in this article? Although there's a spoiler warning near the beginning, people might not expect unaired episode spoilers. --NoraBlack 04:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Any canonical information that is available can be posted. There's hardly a difference in posting spoilers for episodes that haven't aired in one particular manner or another. Lake Laogai has aired on TurboNick instead of Nickelodeon, but there are quite a few episodes that are in the reverse situation. It's all the same to someone who has or hasn't seen it. -- Y BCZ 22:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC) (UTC)

PICTURE OF ZUKO from Lake Laogai episode: Why doesn't someone update the picture of zuko to one from the Lake Laogai episode after it airs tonight? I would, but don't know how. Besides, he looks A LOT cooler with his hair longer. Sorta gangster-ish.

Sure, lets just update his picture every new episode then! H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 06:11, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea. I mean his hair has grown a lot longer since he firt had it cut. I'd go either way, but what does everyone else think? Momoroxmysoxoff 01:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm hoping H2P's remark was sarcastic. If not, it's ridiculous. Pacific Coast Highway {Gobble Gobble! • Happy Thanksgiving!}  02:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course it was. Apparently people didn't see that. If we start changing his picture every time his hair grows we'll be changing it once a week. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 02:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I knew that. I was just testing you. [[Image:Wink.png|18px]] Pacific Coast Highway {Gobble Gobble! • Happy Thanksgiving!}  03:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, the pic from above looks like it was from "Zuko Alone," which was pretty early in the season. Now we're towards the end of the season, so isn't it time for an update? We don't have to change it every new episode.  GdaMan 03:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC) GdaMan


 * Well, while I agree it IS ridiculous to update pictures EVERY time an episode airs, it WOULD be more practical to post a Lake Laogai picture, taking into consideration that his hair has grown a considerable length with this episode.71.164.44.185 01:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven
 * Yeah but how long will it stay that way? he might cut it then we change it again. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 05:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Would you get a new one if he did cut it? Momoroxmysoxoff 03:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * My personal suggestion: update the picture, but only if we have a more recent picture that is of equal or better quality than the one that's there now.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 03:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * You know, I was just thinking that we might even get a really good pic. from lake laogai (Just the way the camera looked at him), but maybe in some of the newer episodes will be as good as this one (I like it, but I think maybe it might be time for change). Momoroxmysoxoff 20:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Train Aang?
I think that Zuko may be the one to train Aang in book 3. Since it is unlikely that he'll ever be able to return to the fire nation, his hatred of Azula, his slow change into a good guy, and Uncle Iroh helping him, he might decide to help Aang. What do you think?


 * That's nice, but this isn't a forum. You want to discuss speculation, go to a forum. We only do facts on this web site, and this page is meant for changes to the associated page. Good day sir. Y BCZ 22:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I know this isn't a forum and all but I just want to point out Zuko isn't even done with HIS training. Iroh is still teaching him... So even if by some random conicidience he was taught by one of them, it would probably be Iroh.

For all we know, he could be a master, but there could be tecniqes he hasn't mastered yet (blue fire and lightning). It goes back to Ozai and Zhao being masters, yet hasn't been seen bending blue fire and/or lightning. Momoroxmysoxoff 21:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

In regards to the last comment, I wouldn't forget that Iroh, himself, is a master. I'm sure almost everyone can aree on that.Vnarang (talk) 00:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

In the two part "Day of th Black Sun" Chapter, Prince Zuko announces his intentions to join the Avatar. Zuko approaches the Firelord during the Solar Eclipse and tells him that he intends the abandon the Fire Nation to assist the Avatar in defeating the Firelord. The Firelord then distracts Zuko by telling him that his mother may, in fact, be alive, but has been banished many years ago in exchange for sparing Zuko's life as a child. This distraction causes Zuko to stay past the solar eclipse and the Firelord attempts to attack him, but Zuko escapes. The episode ends showing Zuko in a Fire Nation air balloon following the Avatar and his group to the Western Air Temple where they plan to find refuge after the invasion fails. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.91.195.244 (talk) 03:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Eh, I know Zuko has shown interest in finding the Avatar to assist him but I don't recall him saying that he was going to teach Aang firebending. Personally I believe he will but I think the article should say he is likely to teach Aang firebending or just simply state he left to join Aang and his party. 71.247.193.174 (talk) 02:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You're a bit behind. They've already aired "the firebending masters" where he does start to teach Aany firebending (albeit interrupted for reasons in the episode). Derekloffin (talk) 02:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Awesome, thanks. I didn't know that. Feel free to ignore my comment then. 71.247.193.174 (talk) 02:51, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

"Katara"
I've removed the section entirely. I don't care if you like to pretend that Katara and Zuko are meant for each other. It's still not case, and there has been no indication whatsoever. Thus, there's little point to actually have the section and exempt Toph and Sokka beyond the insane delusions of shippers. Interrobamf 10:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know if you noticed or not, but there isn't a single word about any kind of romance in the section, or in the "Zuko" section of Katara's page. They have interacted enough to warrant a section on each others pages, and even if you disagree, that's the kind of thing that should be discussed first. Exhibit A 16:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * We both know well that the only reason those sections exist is due to "Zutara". Their interaction? They fought once over Aang, fought together with a bunch of other people against Azula (where they interacted as much Toph and Sokka did with Zuko), and talked about a necklace once. No, there needs to be far more than that. Interrobamf 22:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm putting it back. Reasons or no, removing that big a hunk of text with no consensus to do so doesn't fly.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 00:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm as adamantly against shipping on wp as anyone, but that chunk of text is not shipping. His relationship to Katara is worth noting if only for their great battle at the North Pole, where both of their improved skills were pitted against each other. As well, I am sure more information will come up later to be added to it. Whether or not they have any future, speculative romantic entaglements, they do have a relationship. That said, at a glance, I suspect the section could be pruned a bit. Just do it with thought, rather than cutting the whole thing off. Erk|Talk|homepage 08:07, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Does he ever even say her name... ever? No, Zuko has never said "Katara, Sokka, Aang, Toph," or any of them in his life probably I am hoping for him to say at least ONE of their names to see how it sounds. haha I'm so obsessed. I've never heard any fire benders (besides like Jeong Jeong) say any of their names, they always say the Avatar and his friends and stuff.


 * Now that I think about it, he never did say her name... weird...


 * He still has a relationship, it's just a hate-hate relationship. The summerary also expresses "The Chase" when she wanted to help him. Also Zuko never says Zhao's name (i think...). Momoroxmysoxoff 02:53, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * He says Captain Zhao in episode 3 H2P

Are we allowed to add information for future episodes which information has been confirmed. For instance could you add that they are trapped in a cave together in the upcoming episode? Or should we wait until it airs?
 * We don't add anything about future episodes to characters biographies. You can add informationg given by the creators (and ONLY the creators) on the page for the future show. However, until it is canon it does not get added. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 06:39, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Mabye someone should add somthing about the Zutara fandom and the fact that Avatar shows that they know of it in the short "Golden Dragon Dance". ~ DSQ

In the two part "Day of th Black Sun" Chapter, Prince Zuko announces his intentions to join the Avatar. Zuko approaches the Firelord during the Solar Eclipse and tells him that he intends the abandon the Fire Nation to assist the Avatar in defeating the Firelord. The Firelord then distracts Zuko by telling him that his mother may, in fact, be alive, but has been banished many years ago in exchange for sparing Zuko's life as a child. This distraction causes Zuko to stay past the solar eclipse and the Firelord attempts to attack him, but Zuko escapes. The episode ends showing Zuko in a Fire Nation air balloon following the Avatar and his group to the Western Air Temple where they plan to find refuge after the invasion fails.

Season Two
I've made some efforts to condense the synopsis of Book Two slightly and make it flow better.. what does everyone think? Wandering Man 07:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it looks better. Not like the list that was there. Momoroxmysoxoff 14:12, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

This reads so much better. I'm going to go ahead and remove the List to Prose statement. Now all we need to do is shorten it to a much more readable length and we'll be done with it. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 19:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Now that the season is over and I'm feeling caught up on everything, I'm going to make an effort to do some major pruning on this section... if I don't have it done by tonight it should be ready in the next day or two. Wandering Man 21:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Finished updating the Book II section. It wound up as more of a trimming than a true pruning, but I got reid of a lot of needless details and tried to make the details of the important events more concise. (I think when I first copied it into Word it ran at more than 5 and a half pages, I managed to cut out about a page of that). If anyone wants to do further work on it, feel free. Wandering Man

Firbending Master
I noticed that someone has made Zuko a firebending master, even though it's just a title. When did that happen? And can we consider him a master?Boywonder18 00:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I think he can be considered master now.. in the invasion during book 3 he faces up to Firelord Ozai during the eclipse.. at the end of the convosation Ozai fires lightning at Zuko but Zuko reverses it and knocks the Firelord down.. so Zuko can obviously manipulate lightning now that he's let go of his shame or something which Iroh said he needs to do before he can successfully create lightning! (sorry to anyone who hasn't seen that episode yet!!) Krazy mickle (talk) 19:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * He redirects the lightning which Iroh says he could do, all he said was Zuko couldn't create it until he let go of his shame. Joeking16 (talk) 22:04, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I took it off and just let it say "Firebender". He's probably close to mastery, but I guess we'll have to see if he's ever refered to in the show as one. Momoroxmysoxoff 01:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

This really needs to stop. "Master" is a title, a rank. You’re formally given that title by another Master (presumably your instructor.) Its not just "learn all these techniques and then you are a master." Think of it like a military promotion: whether or not you deserve to be a Corporal, you're still a Private until somebody promotes you. People need to stop editing this (and other) articles to claim people are masters who have never been given the title.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 21:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Nick Latin America has informed that he is indeed a Firebending Master, so, he in reality is.
 * Thank you finally. Never do that again. Can we have a source please? -Dylan0513 20:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Try to find a spanish avatar clip with Zuko inside, often the word Maestrofuego which means firebending master can be heard, that should be enough proof and, what gives proof of Zhao being a firebending master.
 * That is not a source. A source is needed. -Dylan0513 20:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

There aren't any spanish videos on youtube and my computer can't access turbonick so, try searching yourself but, what gives proof of other firebenders being masters.
 * There is no mention of Zuko being a Fire Bending master in the show. Period. A link to an official site or an interview woukld probably be the only things. -Dylan0513 22:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

See this link, it was edited a long time ago. http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuko#Las_Capacidades
 * As you can see, this is the English Wikipedia meaning we don't use the Spanish form of shows. I highly doubt it said he was even said at all in the Spanish version. -Dylan0513 20:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

That means that Zuko needs to be called Firebending master, Exactly as it is written.Cpzphantom 01:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * ...did you even read what I wrote? No Spanish Avatar as a source! -Dylan0513 01:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, but can a normal firebender beat a Firebending master?


 * Yes. Someone could be kept at a non-master rank for their entire life, no matter how well they bend. Or don't bend. Really, anyone could beat anyone. It's not just a matter of bending skills or lack of them, there are many factors that result in the outcome of a fight. One person or group of people are not always guaranteed to win because of what they are ranked. Bagpipeturtle 03:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Considered adding professional since there must be a way to describe he is quite different from a normal firebender but hasn't received the firebending master title yet. also, when were toph and Katara where called masters and when did azula wasCpzphantom 21:55, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * He's not even close to master. I don't know where you are getting this from. -Dylan0513 23:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

But an expert, normal firebender is quite different from a master, something to say he is inside the requirements of a master but that he isn't, after all almost all characters are reffered as masters.


 * There aren't any ranks that we know of between normal and master, so we can't just make things up willy-nilly. Zuko will stay a normal firebender until he is promoted in the show in canon. And about the Katara/Toph/Azula thing mentioned several posts ago, Katara was promoted during Seige of the North, was it? She was at the North Pole with Master Pakku, and he said something about Aang calling her Master Katara. Which means she's a master. I'm pretty sure it was stated that Toph was a master in the Blind Bandit somewhere, plus the whole 'greatest earthbender in the world' thing. About Azula... there is something about that on her talk page. Bagpipeturtle 00:34, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Reverted out someone's edit calling him a master. If there's no source do not change it folks. Sources, not speculation. Eban 20:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Jin and Song
These two are listed under the realtionships section but are they really large enough characters to be there? They were both only there for one episdoe each. Jin I can inderstand because she was pretty much Zuko's first relationship even if she was only there for one episode. But Song? She hardly had a large enough role to be truly significant and her chances of being seen again are fairly low. I think at least Song's section should be deleted. Anyone agree? 69.141.78.155 21:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I've been wondering about Song for awhile. She seemed to have an effect about Zuko, as he learned about the troubles his people had inflicted upon innocents. However, he also met Lee's family during that time, and they aren't listed in the relationships section. Jin was there for only a few minutes, but the fact that they kissed does kind of play a big factor. I don't think we really need Song there anymore. Y BCZ 22:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

So is it agreed that we should delete Song's paragraph? Or does anyone protest to this? But if you do have a good reason why because once again, Song really isn't a huge part of Zuko's life anymore. 69.141.78.155 22:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't get too far ahead of yourself, the subject only just came up an hour ago. Wait to hear other people's opinions. Y BCZ 22:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I see no reason for either of them, but I forsee Jin playing a role in upcoming episodes so, for now, I say we can leave her. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 06:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I personally don't think Jin or anything or anyone else from Tales of Ba Sing Se will have any impact beyond that episode, but I'd be in favor of leaving her paragraph in the relationship section in, since a date is a notable event for Zuko. I think it might be best to just limit Song to the bit that is mentioned in the Book II section, however. That part seems to cover most of what there is to say between her and Zuko. Wandering Man 06:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't saying we delete just yet. Just seeing if anyone disagreed. Jin yes she might still play a major role. However Song I think is doubtful. 69.141.78.155 20:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

FA
Due to the fact that information on this page won't be updated for a good while, and due to the overall length and style of the article, I suggest that we clean this up just a bit more and then nominate it for FA status. In order to do this, though, we are going to need to cite many of the episodes as sources (similar to what I did to Waterbender a while back). I've cleaned a few unnecessary pictures from the page, the rest need proper citation (I don't think the Jet picture works all that well). I know we're all working real hard to nominate the main Avatar article, but if we get a chance we could easily convert this along with it. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 16:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The biggest problem is that most of the article reads as an list of episode summarys. All of our project shall decend upon this aricle and make it worthy of Featured Articleness. Cnriaczoy42 16:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I just finished pruning through the history section (not sure if I hit the stuff prior to book 1). The problem is that the history is the story section and a story section is nothing more than episode summaries. I think I was able to remove all the very small details. I think his relationship with Jet (atleast, in the story section) is not needed but I did't remove it yet. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 17:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm new here, and would just like to say you might want to update his summary. You could mention the fact he's a tragic hero, and make it sound a bit more... interesting. That's all. 22:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly how is he a tragic hero?-- SU IT  04:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Scroll up the Lengthness. I don't get why people don't see that. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 04:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * By definition. "Tragic hero: a literary character who makes an error of judgment or has a fatal flaw that, combined with fate and external forces, brings on a tragedy." That's a direct quote from a dictionary. 02:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Tragic hero? Hmmm, it seem to fit him, but what about anti-hero? Oooh! I got it! Tragic anti-hero! My cat: You made that up! Me: Hey, it seems to fit. 66.45.175.101 20:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Top Importance?
Why would one main character page be top importance over the others? I know this one may be the most detailed and longest, but tthis is importance. -Dylan0513 01:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Mai?
Should Mai still be in the character relationship. I remember others being taken out because of lack of depth and all it really mentions is Mai's apparent childhood crush on Zuko. Since Mai's appearance, there has been no interaction between the two and seeing how the season has ended, I think it's time it was taken down. -Lionheart08
 * Why? Now that they're both in Ba Sing Se, and (you would think) in th same palace, there should be interaction. And they did interact in "Zuko Alone" (the whole "game" insident). Momoroxmysoxoff 20:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Keeping it up just becase of speculation of what might happen is sort of fandom isn't? From my understanding, Relationships created because the characters had an impact on each other or there was consistent interaction throughtout the series. Aside from the flashback, there has been no interaction between the two, and even then, there wasn't enough substance to warrent a relationship. Lionheart08 20:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed her, considering that they haven't interacted since their childhood and it played no role in who Zuko becomes. People in the relationships section should have some direct meaning to the character's character. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 17:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, and if Mai interacts with him in Book Three, we can always put her back on. Bagpipeturtle 17:43, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * (*cries*) Well...I should have known this would happen after what happened to Haru...Oh well. I don't see how they can't have no intersection in book three anyway...so once agian I admit defeat. Momoroxmysoxoff 22:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Lol, did you guys see the ComicCon trailer? I think Mai deserves a spot in the Character Relationships section now.  74.233.144.186 23:43, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

We should add something about Mai, especially after seeing this:http://youtube.com/watch?v=_yvhgiKK74ADarth G 20:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, we have no idea what the circumstances were, so no. When the episode they kiss in is aired, then we can add it. Bagpipeturtle 02:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Relationships Removal
This is just a personal opinion but I think the relationships aren't really needed for the character pages. It seems since the relationship pages were created, it has only sprouted more controversy on what is considered a relationship, and what is merely fandom. Add on to that, with a future season coming, there's only going to be more increase to that particular section.

The character pages (Mainly Zuko's and Aang's) are far too long and the character relationships is the only reasonable thing to cut out. And I personally think there already enough on the pages without relationships, to give anyone enough insight on the characters. Lionheart08 20:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * ...I disagree. The relationship between characters is one of the show's most prominent and important elements. Just think of how much Katara has affected Aang's actions, or Iroh has unfluenced Zuko. Those are very important aspects of the characters. Deleting those sections would be leaving out some essential information. Besides, I think taking out the relationship sections would cause even MORE controversy than already exists. Y BCZ 22:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Y, but I think we need to reword them so that instead of just showing how they've interacted, show how they influenced the other. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 23:03, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * What I was thinking was to use something along the lines of a Character Analysis. Because when you get right down to it, only a few characters on each list played a vital role in the respective character's evolution. Despite her small role, Jin played a major part in Zuko's season 2 development while Jet didn't really. Lionheart08 21:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Original Research
Almost this is entire page is original research. Please read WP:OR before adding things you have written yourself. Sources are needed to back up all statements on WP. - Ocatecir 19:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I reverted your gutting of the article. The source is the show itself, which is well established practice. If you'd like to cite specific example of what you think are OR, fine, but don't think you're just going to wipe the article clean like that.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 20:05, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * This is what I also told Ocatecir on his user talk page. There is no OR, but it is a way too detailed character synopsis.— Ryūlóng ( 竜  龍 ) 01:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I just left a message on his talkpage. Which he immediately deleted. I think it's banhammer time. Or call one of the commitees. Pacific Coast Highway {talk • contribs} 01:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Until I see some good faith effort to discuss the issue (for example, responding to rather than ignoring and deleting talk page comments) I'll just consider any attempt to remove that much content from the article vandalism and react accordingly. Don't really have much choice, if the other parties won't discuss anything...--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 02:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I see he gave you the backspace treatment too. Pacific Coast Highway {talk • contribs} 02:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I don't really see what can be done, if every effort to discuss the issue is going to be ignored.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 02:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Frankly your responses turned me off to trying to argue with you, especially pacific coast highway's comments about abuse (and then banhammer time and committee? please. I know you're only 16 but please conduct yourself with a little maturity). I'm not going to argue with 15 editors who are obviously fans of a subject I know nothing about and treat your adherence to rules as an attack on them. The problem with arguing with webcomic/anime/podcast editors on wikipedia is they treat wikipedia as an all-inclusive resource instead of a wikipedia. So go ahead and revert this article to a 15 page long fansite, someone else later on down the line should clean it up though. There are plenty of other pages that need to be cleaned up to comply with wikipedia's guidelines that I don't need to be arguing here. I will simply move on. - Ocatecir 02:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * So much for civility. And continuously ignoring/removing messages from your talkpage dosen't look good on your part either. Pacific Coast Highway {talk • contribs} 02:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Is this guy kidding? Didn't we just have Torchic on the main page a few weeks back? H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 06:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

This sorely needs to be written with WP:FAC in mind. And it really needs citations. See List of FoxTrot family members for citing from the source - the page number and book is cited. Surely it can be done for this article? Hbdragon88 09:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the personality section is original resrach. Sentences like While initially the series' main antagonist, over time Zuko's continued development has shown him to be more like a bitter and complex young man are advancing a particular viewpoint, an interpretation, instead of just the facts, and thus require some kind of citation from an outside source. Hbdragon88 09:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The whole article is original research. Nothing is backed up by sources. I seriously hope you aren't serious about submitting this to FA or even GA with 0 references. Saying "the show is the reference itself" isn't good enough. I would fail this as a GA but i'm interested in what another editor thinks. M3tal H3ad 11:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * And I direct you to Padme Amidala who's featured article status is backed up mostly, almost fully, but references to the movie and the books of the Star Wars universe. I see no difference except that we don't have many outside sources like reviews and interviews that we can actually use. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 14:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Alter Ego category?
should we add Zuko to the catagory of Fictional Characters with Alter Egos? Granted, there's no catagory with that name, and while he clearly doesn't have multiple personalities, like Conholio is to Beavis for example, the Blue Spirit is still an aspect of him.

GA review
This article has a lot of flaws and I'm going to fail it. The lead should summarize the entire article and be longer than two paragraphs for an article of this size (see WP:LEAD). The article doens't have any inline citations, which is should have. The article has a "original research" tag. I won't get into whether it is justified, but a good article should have resolves these issues. Articles should not contain trivia sections. Finally, the entire article is in-universe and should have out-of-universe information, such as how was the character created in the real world (see Manual_of_Style_(writing_about_fiction)). --Maitch 15:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * We don't have that information. All the information we have about the character is presented. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 17:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Breath of Flame?
I was watching last nigh, and Iroh mentioned something about Zuko's Breath of Flame (?) not really sure what this is, but should it be included in the abilitis —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.80.121.174 (talk) 03:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

"Breathe of Fire," to be precise, and, like the name implies, it's a talent where be breathes fire. According to the director commentary for the episode it's actually a real Yoga move (Albeit without real fire), and Zuko used it to heat himself up after going through the freezing water and ice during The Siege of the North. JBK405 22:09, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Zuko's age
Zuko's age is listed as "16 (possibly 17 by book 2)" shouldn't the "possibly... " part be removed or is there reason to think this? I'm asking because it's been like that for a few days now. Cherries Jubilee 05:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Its actually been that way for quite a while, after a pretty major discussion on the subject (here.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 17:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Removed it, stop re-adding it. Until he has a birthday we see he's 16 barring any confirmed information from the creators. Eban 15:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, no. Did you even bother reading that discussion I linked?--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 17:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

It was mentioned in the begining of "The Avatar State" XAV 16:56, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I was in that discussion, I'm aware of it's content. There's no point in speculation, until it's known when his birthday is, or an official source opts to disclose his current age he's 16. Eban (talk • contribs) 20:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC).
 * Again, sorry, but no. You don't get to just decide prior consensus is wrong and run with it. If somebody would actually like to talk about it fine, but the status quo stays until there's consensus otherwise.--Fyre2387 (talk • 19:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC) contribs) 04:24, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No source, don't include it, period. You don't have a source. Stop re-adding it, I don't care if the consensus is that Aang is really King Kong, no source, no addition to the article. Eban
 * Yeah....um, no. Doesn't work that way, sorry. You don't get to just decide consensus is wrong. If you want to actually discuss it, fine. I'm all ears. But if you're just going to say you're right and do whatever you want, I honestly don't care what you have to say.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 20:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yay for edit wars! By the way, book two is over, and he never had a birthday. Still no source from you. Stop adding unsourced material.Eban 19:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No, he never celebrated a birthday. Bagpipeturtle 21:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You'd think the heir apparent of an empire would celebrate a birthday if he had one wouldn't you? No source, don't change it. Wikipedia deals in facts, not fan theories. Eban 12:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Look. One person dosn't get to just decide consensus is wrong. That's the bottom line, and no amount of complaining out of you will change it. As I said, you want to actually discuss the issue, fine, but until that happens, the status quo stays. That's just the way it is.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 17:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Consensus is irrelevant. This is wikipedia, not fanficpedia. Use facts, not presumptions or wishful thinking from the fanfic community. Eban 19:37, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * To tell the truth, I don't see why you are bringing up fan fiction at all. There was a consensus decided, and one person can not just go along and decide that it is wrong until we get new information. Bagpipeturtle 19:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

(un-indenting)"Consensus is irrelevant"? Er, no, no its not. Anyway, this has nothing at all to do with fan fiction, so I don't know why you're harping on that. You keep insisting there's no source for him to be anything but 16, but that's simply not true. The show itself does count as a source, you know. Between the website and the show itself, we have bits of information that appear to be in conflict. We reconcile that by compromise. Why do you have such a problem with that?--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 14:26, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * So by your logic the population of elephants tripled in the last ten years? I mean a lot of people said it did at Stephen Colbert's request. Consensus view is that the population tripled. Is that suddenly fact? No it's not. But hey, good for you if you think you can just make up things and slap them in without sources. Policy dictates otherwise. Stop changing it without a source. 24.171.83.198 23:18, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * We weren't making up things. There is evidence that proves Zuko could be 16 (the website), and evidence that proves he could be 17 (the show). So, you know, the consensus was decided to put the 16 (possibly 17 in book two). This has nothing to do with elephants. If you have new information that proves us wrong or right, then we can put that up. But, you know, you can't just decide that this consensus is wrong without any new information. Bagpipeturtle 01:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * When is there ever any indication as to how much time has passed since the start of the show? When is there ever any mention of Zuko's birthday? I would think Iroh would mention it wouldn't you? 24.171.83.109 19:11, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The start of the show? That has nothing to do with it. Did you even read the prior discussions before deciding they were all wrong? We know Zuko was 14 when he was banished, and during the show he had the third anniversary since his banishment. 14+3=17. However, we also have a website saying he's 16. Hence, we avoid taking either extreme.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 19:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Zuko was banished about two years before the start of the show. When the show began, nick.com said Prince Zuko was sixteen years old. The site for Austrilia (nickelodeon.com.au) confirms that Zuko was fourteen when he was banished. At the start of the book of earth, Zuko stated it had been three years since his father banished him from the Fire Nation. Fourteen plus three equals seventeen, therefore, Zuko is more than likely seventeen in the Book of Earth.
 * Well, the thing is that the site hasn't been updated to say that he's 17, if he is. And we don't know whether Zuko was 16, 16.5, 16.75, or what in Book 1. He could have just turned 16, and so he would still be sixteen at the start of Book 2, correct? The thing is, we just don't know when his birthday is and exactly how old he is at any one point in time. This stops us from saying with quite certanty whether he is 16 or 17. That's why the consensus was reached. Bagpipeturtle 21:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Timeline for you. Zuko is banished at fourteen (see nickelodeon.com.au, the source pointed out above, and look up the show and characters). Zuko has been at sea for at least two years before the show began (confirmed by Zhao in episode three, The Southern Air Temple). This confirms what we know from the site nick.com, Zuko is at least sixteen at the start of the first season. At the start of season two, Zuko confirms it has been three years since he was banished. If he were fourteen when he'd been banished and three years had passed, he should, logically, be seventeen at or even before the start of season two. With all this solid evidence, on an official site and on the show, I don't see we're not allowed to assume that Zuko is seventeen (and turned seventeen in the winter, but I'm not going to try and explain that one).


 * If Zuko is sixteen in Book One and three years have passed in Book Two, then technically he'd be nineteen, wouldn't he? That would be kind of nice. ~Souda

Sorry, but not quite. It's three years have passed since Zuko was first exiled, not three years since Book One. JBK405 02:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Does anybody have an actual reason why a compromise is wrong here (beyond the "no source", which, as above, has been proven inaccurate), or has this just turned into a game of "edit till I get my way"? Because dispute tags are there to help discuss an issue, and if the people adding them won't discuss the issue, as far as I'm concerned its vandalism and I'll deal with it accordingly.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 22:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, wait just a minute here. Where's the source saying he's 16? Because I've got the bio on nick.com open now, and it doesn't say anything about an age other than "teenage".--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 13:04, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure it's mentioned he's 16 in Winter Solstice Part 2. Eban 13:23, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * By the way I find it incredibly hilarious that after weeks of insisting that your view "the consensus view" was right, that you're just now bothering to fact check. Eban 16:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * We never said the consensus view was correct (since we don't know which is correct), it's just better than saying either 16 or 17, because people would get angry either way. And they still are... Bagpipeturtle 21:16, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly. He's either 16 or 17. We aren't sure, so we cover all the bases. I still can't see why that's been such a problem.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 21:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I think when the invasion airs somone should change it to 16 as Zuko clearly states that he was 13 when challenged to the Agni Kai and in the episode The Awakning at the fan fair at the palace the two old twins state that it had been three years since he left: 13 + 3 + 16!! ~ DSQ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.61.135 (talk) 22:23, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Except that means he was banished after he was 13, the Agni Kai could of been the day before he was 14 which would most certainly mean he would be 14 when he is banished so he could be 17 by now. Joeking16 (talk) 22:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Guys, c'mon, stop arguing about this. It's not even accomplishing anything, as age has been removed from the infobox. Bagpipeturtle (talk) 00:23, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Making this a featured article discussion
Here's where we can discuss steps to making this a featured article. I'm currently in the process of adding sources to the article. I think that the season 1 and season 2's formats should match. I think we should condense what's in the season 2 section and take away the divisions to make it look like season 1. Thoughts? -Dylan0513 17:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I like the divisions as they are. It would be hard to knock out the data because Zuko became such a main player in season 2. We could shorten it, but it should never be as short as Season 1. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 19:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok. you think we should keep the divisions by certain episodes though? -Dylan0513 19:47, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I like them the way they are, a lot of the episodes focus around one theme. Like the banishment period, the Ba Sing Se period, Alone, etc. I think what they really need is just clean up. Take away a lot of the fluff. I've done this multiple times but it always seems to come back. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 19:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't both seasons have the same format though? I think one way or the other... -Dylan0513 19:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think there's a perfectly logical reason for the differences, as in Season 1 most of the episodes where he's in it's just Zuko is making another attempt to capture Aang, without it having a greater significance to the character, or his role within the show. During Season 2, however, nearly episode has some occurrence or lends to the evolution of Zuko's character, which is a big reason for a slightly different format.Wandering Man

I think the biggest thing the article actually needs is a fairly brief paragraph at the start describing the world of Avatar, it's history and settings somewhat. One of the primary reasons the article didn't make Good Article status is because it was written in an "in universe" style, and it's true. I imagine someone who has never seen an Avatar episode stumbling onto the article and saying "Firebending? What the hell is Firebending?!!" and then leaving to read something else. If no one else wants to, I can get started on a section like that for the article.Wandering Man
 * Well, I've given it a shot with adding that section. What does everyone think? Wandering Man


 * Question: Is it ok what I've been doing with the season 2 episodes and citing the episodes the specific part is on next where it says main article and not in the text? -Dylan0513 18:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, I did it by paragraph. -Dylan0513 23:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


 * New topic, we need to shorten the article. Do Jin and Jet need spots in the relationships? -Dylan0513 23:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Well they were a part of book 2 and they could be removed eventually. It is unlikely they will be seen in any future episodes. XAV 05:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Jin made an impact on him, first thing with person... *goes to pause Yu-Gi-Oh in the other window* Jin appears to be the first person who had a kind of romantic relationship with and a person with whom he acted different to usual. She may not have been around for long but at the least she showed Zuko the kind of life he could have had if he chose to remain in Ba Sing Se as Lee. Cherries Jubilee 05:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I guess so. Perhaps Jet should be removed eventually he doesn't seem to have left a big impact on him. XAV 05:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Jin Is 1st if either. You can see no effects of their date now and she was a one shot character. In my mind those have no place in a relationships section of a main character. -Dylan0513 10:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We also need to take the Zuko and Jin picture out. -Dylan0513 10:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I also propose to take the Katara section out. They haven't interacted enough for it to be there. -Dylan0513 21:13, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah I'm sure she's nice and all, but Jin really was a four-minute character in a considerably detached episode (notice how I didn't use "filler"). The creators have even stated that she's a one-shot and like several others, they'd like to bring her back but its unlikely. And yeah that Katara section was there long before they even had any substantial interaction (no that Zutara catalyst doesn't count, she said like 3 lines). Give ya five guesses why, rhymes with skipping. Though thanks to fanservice in the finale I think its kinda too late for that now. ~Father' Wish 14 March (UTC)
 * Katara really should stay. That whole thing in the caves was a pretty pivotal scene.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 01:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Eh, kinda forced. But like I said, its too late for that now. A relationship should truly be one that is continua and longlasting, not some dude that Mike, Bryan, and the rest thought that it'd be just be super-awesome for him to cross paths with. So ya'know, bye-bye Jet+Jin. ~Father' Wish 14 March (UTC)
 * Fyre, the thing is, look at the size of the article. I think after Jet and Jin, Katara is next. -Dylan0513 10:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We shouldn't be removing stuff just to make it shorter. If something belongs there, it belongs there, no matter how long that means the article will be.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 15:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If only that were true, well for some occassions anyway. Its pretty much the opposite though, or at the very most has a profound effect. ~Father's Wish —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Father's Wish II (talk • contribs) 09:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC).
 * I'm just telling you what people are going to say when we nominate it. "It's too long for an article about a fictional character." They'll probably be right. Back to Jet and Jin. -Dylan0513 19:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think all relationships should be removed and any relevant information worked into the article. This way the personality section can be deleted and then rewritten as well. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 19:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Where would we rework it into though? And why delete the personality section? -Dylan0513 20:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * There isn't a purpose to the personality section. Their actions with the others is usually stated in the History section while how that person changes their personality should be in the personality section. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 20:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We can't just have episode recaps the whole time. We need some other stuff! -Dylan0513 20:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Again I refer you to Queen Amidala who has no relationships section and half the page is just story. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 01:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Characteristics is personality, XD. BTW, we should notice that the page is 44 kb long. Zuko right now is 73. We've got some major cutting to do. -Dylan0513 01:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We've been saying THAT all along. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 07:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, not really. Some people think we don't need to cut. We need to come to a consensus. -Dylan0513 11:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I have a proposition to make. We take out the relationships, family, personality and maybe abilities section and work them into the rest of the article. We put them into the episode recaps making them less recap-y, and more insight into Zuko. -Dylan0513 19:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Note for everybody: we're still discussing this. WP:BOLD isn't a free pass to do whatever you want.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 20:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


 * What contradciting policies was I using. WP:BOLD means that if an improvement can be made, then it doesn't need to be talked about. Also, two other people agreed that tose sections could go. I don't see how I was hurting anyone of anything by being Bold. The Placebo Effect 21:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * All of Wiki's policy's are contradicting. Yes, people agreed, but some didn't. Let's wait and get opinions on getting rid of relationships all together before taking any one out. -Dylan0513 21:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Dylan's opinion's on policies aside (let's not go down that road again, OK?) acting unilaterally in the middle of a discussion is bad form. We have talk pages for a reason. Remember that WP:CONS is policy, too.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 02:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Tragic Hero
Zuko meets most of the requirements of a Tragic Hero. And note that a tragic hero is often a protagonist, but can be an antagonist —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.60.143.195 (talk) 13:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC).
 * He's not a protagonist. And don't make up statistics like that. -Dylan0513 13:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * What do you mean he's not a protagonist? Did you not watch the first season? H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 22:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * He's an antagonist... I really hope you were being sarcastic. -Dylan0513 00:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You know, i think the internet needs a sarcasim symbol :-P. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 05:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, in this situation it's inappropriate though. -Dylan0513 13:41, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, yeah, he is some of the things listed on that page, but just because someone has those characteristics doesn't necessarily mean that they have to die at the end of the series. There aren't rules on how you have to work a storyline. It isn't set into stone anywhere. Just because someone is a king of sorts, and they have flaws, and they suffer more than they deserve, and all the other stuff listed here, doesn't mean they have to die. Anything could happen. Oh, and Zuko is mostly an antagonist. Not a protagonist. Bagpipeturtle 01:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I guess I shouldn't put my speculation on this without enough support behind it, forgot this is discussion not forum. Sorry about that. I'll change the original post to show just the facts.

I'd call him a tragic villain, even though he's hardly a villainus character, espicially compared most of the other character we see in the Fire Nation. FiercedietylinkX —Preceding unsigned comment added by FiercedeitylinkX (talk • contribs) 01:59, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

although, with the western air temple episode over, its not fair to call him a villain anymore...Dragon queen4ever (talk) 19:55, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The Blue Spirit (Character) Article
You must have deleted my Blue Spirit (Character) article because I didn't use the talkpage first. If you added an article like Clark Kent and Superman, you can't add an article like The Blue Spirit (Character) for Zuko? You should have also put up articles for the superhero's alter egos like Bruce Wayne and Peter Parker if you put up Clark Kent and Superman. Sometimes, this site can just get a little weird. But if your reason is that I didn't use the talkpage first, fine. But can I just put up an article for the blue spirit (character) again? Jimblack 23:06, 11 June 2007 (UTC)Jimblack
 * I don't think the Blue Spirit really has enough information to have its own page. I think just being put in Zuko's page is sufficent. Bagpipeturtle 23:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Jim, you're probably talking to me there? You can't just go on an article's talk page and address me as "you". I doubt anyone else understood who you were talking to. Anyway, I didn't delete ANY of the articles you created. I've only notified you of article deletions and kept in touch with you. I suggested you use talk pages to gain consensus for major changes and article creations. If people know what you're up to, they can either help you or talk you out of it. Also, if someone leaves you a message on your talk page, you should respond to it. That's all I said and I see you've been taking my advice to heart. As to your Clark Kent/Superman argument: They are the same person, so creating 2 articles would be redundant. Lastly, I know very little about Avatar, so don't as me.--Atlan (talk) 00:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Mai 2
Okay, I know a lot of people want to add Mai now that she's suppose to kiss Zuko in Season 3, but nothing have changed yet. NOt much is known about their relationship except that they well kiss. Until Season 3 airs, I don't think Mai should be added to the relationship section. Lionheart08 13:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if the comics count as canon or not, but in the new all-Avatar issue of Nick magazine, Zuko and Mai get set up on a date and they reconnect, along with Mai giving Zuko a short kiss. But yeah, I think the article can survive until there's some more visual evidence from the show. There're only five days left until "The Awakening" after all. TakaraLioness 23:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * As stated multiple times in places way too various for me to list (just call it a day and check Avatarspirit), the comics are 100% canon. In itself a collaboration between the show's writers (i.e. Aaron Ehasz, Ethan Spaulding, Josh Hamilton, Katie Mattila, etc) and various comic artists (including Johane Matte aka Rufftoon), serving as a bridge for the lil time jump between 2 and 3. For the record, I'm explainin it like this to serve as reference for if info from the mag starts being put up. Father's Wish II 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah. Alright then. Thanks. :) TakaraLioness 11:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Zuko's Position
First off for Zuko is his position; Exiled Prince, just Prince, or ex-exiled prince(last one was a joke)? Keyblade Mage 02:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)Keyblade Mage
 * He is the Crown Prince. -- Madd the sane (talk) 18:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * No longer is he crown prince, as of "Day of the Black Sun Part 2: The Eclipse"(which has aired,and uploaded to the internet) he chooses to put down his crown and follow/join aang and help him learn firebending, and help him fight against the firelord -- variables1 01:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but have you been reading any of the talk pages. The Day of Black Sun HAS NOT AIRED.  Uploaded to the internet does not equal being aired on television.  Enough already, people, all you have to wait is another 10 days, or three if Canada airs Friday.  Give it a rest already!  春・Harukaze・風 15:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Nickname Zuzu
Does anyone know, what "zuzu" means? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.177.74.165 (talk) 21:37, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Does it have to mean something? TakaraLioness 00:35, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Uh... I'm pretty sure it's just short for "Zuko". Lots of nicknames are like that, using/repeating part of the full name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.46.0.116 (talk) 01:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Zuko's mother...
Call it speculation, but I believe that the series has given sufficient evidence for the argument that Princess Ursa is dead.

In "Zuko Alone", Azula tells Zuko that Azulon ordered to have Ozai's first-born killed so he may learn to respect Iroh. Ursa then visits her son in the middle of the night and tells him that everything she has done has been to protect him, and then she 'goes missing'. The most logical explanation would be that she sacrificed herself to prevent Zuko from being killed. Also, as it states in the article, the dragon in Zuko's dream says to "sleep just like mother", which seems like an obvious reference to her death.

--Marshmello 22:37, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Still, it is speculation. Even though this may seem to be the most logical explanation for these sequences it still can't be added because it's not been confirmed. Unless an official source states she's dead it can't be added. For all we know she could still be out there somewhere or she might've sacrificed herself. But that's just it - 'might have.' There's a ton of possibilities for her current position and no matter the amount of evidence the show adds it can't be considered the truth unless it is deliberately stated or mentioned in the context. But good thoughts, though! I hope that answers it! :) GeneralIroh (Leave a message after the beep if you gotta problem.) 00:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

---Here is what I have to say about Zuko's mother. I wrote this on another wiki article.

In Book 3, Chapter 11, there is a scene with Fire Lord Ozai and Prince Zuko. Prince Zuko goes about to speak his mind during the Solar Eclipse, when all firebenders are powerless for the duration of the eclipse. As soon as Prince Zuko is dont speaking, he approaches the door, then Fire Lord Ozai tells Prince Zuko, "Don't you want to know what happened to your mother?" Prince Zuko responds, "What happened that night?" and Fire Lord Ozai responds, "My father, Fire Lord Azulon, commanded me to do the unthinkable, to you, my own son, and I was going to do it. But your mother found out, and swore she would protect you at any cost. She knew I wanted the throne, and she proposed a plan. A plan in which I would become fire lord, and your life would be spared. Your mother did vicious, treasonous things that night. She knew the consequences, and accepted them. For her treason, she was banished." Prince Zuko responds, "So she's alive" with a tear in his eye. Then Fire Lord Ozai responds, "Perhaps." And this is all that is said about Ursa.

Vnarang (talk) 00:31, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Who's older?
Where has it been said that Zuko is older than Azula, much less by 2 years? I don't recall any statement in the show of their relative ages, and their interpersonal dynamic suggests to me that she's the elder. -- AvatarMN 06:23, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, the official site has their ages, I think. TakaraLioness 18:20, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, in the flashbacks of Zuko Alone, it's pretty clear that he's the elder, IMO. Bagpipeturtle 22:56, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see any character bios on the official site, where is it? And what about "Zuko Alone" suggests he's older?  In it he says he's heir to the throne, but females may not be eligible.  -- AvatarMN 06:09, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, on the little episode info bit for "The Avatar State," in the Character's section, it has a description of Azula that reads, "...Azula is Zuko's 14-year-old younger sister." And in "Avatar Roku," Iroh tells Zuko that sailing into Fire Nation waters was the most foolish thing that Zuko's done in his sixteen years. TakaraLioness 12:43, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I see... But the website isn't necessarily canon.  I wish they'd put it in the show, it's a fairly important detail.  -- AvatarMN 17:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Er.. Since when is the site not canon? Okay... Well, even if Azula is mentally older than Zuko, she's biologically younger. I mean, didn't the creators state at a convention that she was his younger sister? And the Avatar-exclusive magazines say the same, I'm sure... TakaraLioness 21:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you know what canon means? The only website I can think of (I'm sure there are more) that was canon is Donnie Darko's.  And that's maybe only because it debuted after the film was in the can and the creators couldn't touch the film any more, but Avatar is ongoing.  Not even things that creators say in public and print but never put into the source material itself can always be considered canon, because they may change their mind, and instead put something contradictory into canon.  Things J.K. Rowling said, and documents she displayed, later went on to be revised and contradictory information was put by her into the Harry Potter books themselves.  I'm not saying Azula isn't younger, after this discussion I concede that she probably is.  I'm just saying the canon (the show) never says, and it's easy to infer from the canon that Zuko's the younger sibling, and that's something the creators need to fix by putting this fact into the canon.  -- AvatarMN 17:57, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Er...NIck's show, Nick's website, Nick's information...Seems like that's the most reliable source that we can get. And so, it must go on that Azula is fourteen, and the youngest, unless there is a specific contradiction. Keyblade Mage (talk) 21:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)Keyblade Mage

Temporary Semi-Protected Status
Please note that I have requested and received semi-protected status for this page. The protection will stand for 18 days, until the actual airing of The Day of Black Sun episodes. As these two episodes were leaked and have not aired anywhere legally, we should not include content from those episodes on these pages.

I have seen varying release dates for these episodes overseas. The only "official" date I have seen for the UK is the 30th, like the US, but I have heard that the UK and Canada might see these episodes one week earlier, on the 23rd. If this is the case, I will request for these pages to be unlocked - US release, as one user pointed out, is not the original air date.

Until then, please, please do not make edits to these pages regarding the unaired content. They will be reverted. 春Harukaze風 20:12, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * i believe the official air date for the us is the 23 based on the commercials on nick they are to be shown each consecutive week and next friday the 16th will be 309 so 310 will be on the 23rd —Preceding unsigned comment added by Akuzio (talk • contribs) 07:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, Nick has decided to preempt Avatar with a Spongebob marathon. *sighs*  Of all things to delay Avatar, it had to be Spongebob.  I felt greatly insulted when I read that.  春Harukaze</FONT>風 11:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems that some users with accounts are still posting Day of Black Sun spoilers on the pages. You might want to increase the protection level. Just my suggestion. 68.175.106.168 19:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The Powers That Be™ didn't think the problem was bad enough to warrant a full lock. They don't seem to do that very often, sadly.  I'll try to check these pages out tonight.  Especially the secondary character list, someone [was it you I think?] mentioned there're still spoilers we missed, but I shouldn't even be on wiki from work >.>  春<FONT FACE="Maiandra GD" COLOR=#0000FF>Harukaze</FONT>風 20:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed a spoiler on Mai's section of the secondary characters' page. Full protection is indeed very rare, but for good reason; suppose, say, Mike and Bryan publish a new interview with important Zuko information in the next 16 days. Or even just copyediting by established editors and such is enough to warrant less-than-full protection. Vandalism or edit warring needs to be extremely bad before full protection overcomes such considerations. As it is, semi-protection brings the spoilers down to a manageable level, as long as we remain vigilant. --Herald Alberich 20:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Unbelievable. Somebody put a spoiler/speculation on the talk page. Removed. Oh, I though I would mention that according to the wikipedia guidelines, I am allowed to remove comments not relevant to improving the article, such as that one. 68.175.106.168 (talk) 23:48, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Romve Temporary Semi-Protected Status
I think it is time we removed the Temporary Semi-Protected Status it was added and supposed to stay till DoBS aired, both part have aired already (I don't know how or if I can remove it, sorry). Joeking16 (talk) 20:05, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You'd have to go back to Requests for page protection and request the protection be removed. Personally, I think it'd be easier at this point to just let it expire on its own tomorrow. --Herald Alberich (talk) 17:28, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I wasn't sure how it worked so I thought you had to have it removed instead of letting it expire. Joeking16 (talk) 21:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Redirecting lightning
"Zuko has yet to use it in combat." is now incorrect as of episode 11 of book 3 where he demonstrated this ability. --M.A. (talk) 06:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * When the episode airs on TV, then we can say that. Until then, we have to leave it this way. The Placebo Effect (talk) 06:35, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Why does the article say he can redirect lightning? In addition, there is also a spoiler/speculation on the section about Ursa. Please remove immediately.68.175.106.168 (talk) 23:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Generations
Can anyone explain to me how there have only been 2 generations of zuko's family in 100 years? Sozin was old when Aang was born. it's now 112 years after Aang's birth. But there have only been two generations between that and zuko who isn't much older than aang. Unless Azulon was born incredibly late in Sozin's life and Ozai was born when Azulon was an old man (which we can see isn't true since Ozai was full grown with children of his own in Azulon's old age)it doesn't seem possible. Even assuming Azulon was born the same day as Aang he would have had to wait until he was in his 60's or so to have Ozai who doesn't appear old at the time of the series. In the real world a generation averages about 25 years in most countries. On the other hand, Iroh does appear much older. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.203.143.61 (talk) 13:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh God... It's like DragonBall Z... SO MANY PLOTHOLES... AAAHHHHH!!

But really. Does it matter? What relevence will it have to the article?SxeFluff (talk) 05:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)]] :01, 21 November 2007

doesn't matter at all. was just wondering —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.118.21.223 (talk) 00:27, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

no explicit facts are given to explain the generation gap, but a "normal" life span, (60-80 years) is not explicitly stated either. If anything, long life spans are established, such as in King Bumi, Avatar Kyoshi, and Guru Pathik who are at least 100 years old. And according to Azula from "The Avatar and the Firelord, Fire Lord Sozin was 'ancient' at the time of his death".
 * But of course, Azula is a snotty teenager so people like Iroh or any adult past 50 could be ancient to her. 71.247.193.174 (talk) 02:47, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Day of Black Sun info
So some of us know that the episode "The Day of Black Sun" (both parts) have been posted on the internet, even though they haven't aired on television yet. If any of you have seen these episodes you know Zuko's role in the story has changed drastically. I was wondering if everyone was waiting for the actual episodes to air before posting information about Zuko from them or if it's all right to post the information now and it was just that no one has done it yet? Unknown Dragon (talk) 12:43, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The general decision was made to not allow DOBS info until it officially airs. That goes for all avatar pages.  Hopefully, that will be soon, I'm sick of reverting people and I'm sure most the other editors are too. Derekloffin (talk) 18:44, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

One of the reasons that no information from DOBS will be posted is that there is no reliable source and the episode has not aired. The episodes were stolen from Viacom and posted on the internet. However, with the edit messages on the page, can edits that post illegally obtained information be considered bad faith? Vandalism seems to be fairly low right now. I haven't seen the episodes and get annoyed whenever some plot detail is revealed when I'm checking the pages. 68.175.106.168 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 04:58, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

In the two part "Day of th Black Sun" Chapter, Prince Zuko announces his intentions to join the Avatar. Zuko approaches the Firelord during the Solar Eclipse and tells him that he intends the abandon the Fire Nation to assist the Avatar in defeating the Firelord. The Firelord then distracts Zuko by telling him that his mother may, in fact, be alive, but has been banished many years ago in exchange for sparing Zuko's life as a child. This distraction causes Zuko to stay past the solar eclipse and the Firelord attempts to attack him, but Zuko escapes. The episode ends showing Zuko in a Fire Nation air balloon following the Avatar and his group to the Western Air Temple where they plan to find refuge after the invasion fails. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.91.195.244 (talk) 03:22, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Relationships
I see you guys, finally, got rid of Aang's relationship section. I think we should do the same for Zuko. All the information is already presented in the story section anyway. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 16:51, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

So Your the bastard who removed Aang's relationship section. How Dare you. Some people like to read the relationship sections! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.251.54.223 (talk) 00:47, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The relationship section in Aangs article has been removed due to being considered original research, only fair that Zuko and all the other characters have their relationship sections removed as well, as all relationship content seems to be considered original research by Wikipedias standards. [/sarcasm]. Can anyone get the Aang relationship section back? 189.32.153.180 (talk) 23:24, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

......whatever.......................... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiimanwii1 (talk • contribs) 04:14, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Main antagonist
While initially, I think past "The Storm" he is no longer the main antagonist, but has become the Anti-hero of the story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.147.224.185 (talk) 23:19, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Recent Article decimation
For some reason, unregistered user Heimushi decided to remove the subheadings in the article, got rid of the relationship paragraph with Jin, and added a whole bunch of DOBS spoilers. I'm going to go ahead and revert to the article before this person's first edits, but feel free to change back if you'd like. Magaroja 17:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Zuko in Throne81516.jpg
Image:Zuko in Throne81516.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 19:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Does Zuko fit the description of...
An Anti-villain? Xepeyon 02:49, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm changing Zuko's mention of being similar to an anti-hero to being similar to an anti-villain. Anti-heroes refer to the protagonist of a series, which he is not. On the other hand, anti-villain refers to the antagonist who engages in villainous acts, or is simply in opposition to the main character(s), though possesses traits sometimes found in heroes or not found in "evil" villains. Xepeyon (talk) 20:34, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Zuko is an Anti-hero not anti-villain. While originally an antagonist, Book II and III he is clearly not an antagonist in the story any longer but a protagonist. All of Aang's enemies are also in turn Zuko's, so Zhao, Ozai, and Azula are more of the antagonists of the story rather than Zuko. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.66.134.228 (talk) 01:47, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * He's Anti-villain. An anti-villain isn't necessarily a "bad" character, but is one in opposition to the series' antagonist. Until the latest episode, he fit the description of an anti-villain, never anti-hero.--Xepeyon (talk) 02:48, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The thing is, anti-villains know what they're doing is wrong, but they do it anyways because they believe there actions benefit a higher cause. Zuko I think did fit the definition of a anti-villain for a time, but obviously the label doesn't fit him anymore. Perhaps there's a better word or phrase that could be used to describe Zuko.Ktulu84 (talk) 03:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Too long?
This article is way too long. Unless anyone has any reasons against it, I will be trimming the article to a more appropriate size. --Hydrokinetics12 (talk) 18:26, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm all for that, and the first target of trimming should be the relationship section. Most of it is redundant with other characters bio's, and what little is useful should be merged into the rest. Derekloffin (talk) 18:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I've removed the story section, as that was basicaly a play-by-play analysis of every single episode he has appeared in. Also, the details of the scar's eye mucsles was stupid and useless. --Piemanmoo (talk) 23:36, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It would seem that somebody felt the need to change it back to an overly long, overly detailed plot summary. I'll see if I can fix that. SkepticBanner (talk) 21:17, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * the Story Section was edited down far, far too much. I'm all for the relationship section, but much has been left out (Western Air temple for instance). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.66.134.228 (talk) 22:38, 24 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the amount of cutting down was appropriate, for what it's worth. Carl.bunderson (talk) 04:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * There wasn't enough information. For instance, it just says that Zhao decided to kill Zuko by assassinating him. The article provided no rational reason why Zhao would do that (rivals certainly isn't enough). If it mentioned the Blue Spirit incident and seeing the duel swords, then it would make perfect sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.66.134.228 (talk) 06:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * We don't need an overly detailed plot summary. I'm going to do my best but I'm still very annoyed at HappyCamper for undoing my edits. Regardless, it is my opinion that the history section is still too long. As for TWAT, that episode has not aired yet so I have no clue what happens in it. SkepticBanner (talk) 09:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Its not too detailed. If anything, its not detailed enough. Someone has edited it again and deleted 100% essential material (for instance, Zuko and Katara speaking in Ba Sing Se. That is very, very, very relavent to the main plot). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.66.134.228 (talk) 10:29, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I reverted the addition of a lot of information added last night, per this discussion. Carl.bunderson (talk) 16:32, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Zuko and Katara speaking has not had a significant impact on the plot so far and is not important enough. SkepticBanner (talk) 06:19, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You apparently haven't seen the Western Air Temple. It is essential to the main plot. If Katara wasn't imprisoned with Zuko, she would have been far more accepting of him joining the group, but it will take a few episodes to gain her trust due to that episode. Also, why are we editing the main plot and not the relationships? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.66.134.228 (talk) 07:28, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The imprisonment thing was unimportant in season 2 and has no place in its plot summary. I'm removing all but absolutely important information that had an impact when whatever is mentioned occurred. The WAT has not aired, so how do you expect me to see it? SkepticBanner (talk) 22:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter that its unimportant in that particular season, just if its important in the overall plot. The White Lotus was unimportant in the second season, but it certainly seems that it will be far more prominent and important this season. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.66.134.228 (talk) 00:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * "it certainly seems"--that is speculation, which is not what WP is all about. Carl.bunderson (talk) 00:54, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That point may be, but the point of the prison conversation has been shown now. The general point is that unimportant within one season is NOT a valid reason to omit it, as the summary must be able to show treads over the entire length of the series.  For example, Suki was essentially pointless in season 1, but reappeared as a major point for Sokka in 2 and 3.  If you omit her from 1 just because she wasn't important yet, the summary falls apart. Of course, that doesn't mean you need a deep discussion of the point, a simple one liner should cover it, but it should be there. Derekloffin (talk) 01:06, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Relationship with Jin Picture
The segment is about Zuko and his relation to Jin, but the picture doesn't show Jin's face at all. May I recommend the picture in the "Tales of Ba Sing Se" episode? It shows how Zuko feels awkward towards her and how major Jin's crush on him is. --Andrelius, 5:19 am, October 1 (UTC) (UTC means GMT 0 right?)
 * Where is the picture? --Fotte (talk) 13:29, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I think thats from a long time ago, considering that there isn't even a relationship section anymore. Rau's Speak Page 21:42, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Main Picture
I must say that I have a problem with the main picture of Zuko. It depicts him with his hair just growing in, but in the series his hair is now long enough to be pulled back into a topknot. Could someone please change this? Thanks. --24.60.226.175 (talk) 00:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Have a shot in mind? I actually like this current picture. Rau's Speak Page 01:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Parent changed the picture. But I think the old one was better. Rau's Speak Page 01:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, me too. I think we need a cross of the old and the new picture. — Parent5446 ☯ ([ message] email) 02:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * How's that? — Parent5446 ☯ ([ message] email) 02:09, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Better, but it still seems too dark. I think the shot of him on the War Balloon in Western Airtemple would be best. It's light and it shows how he's changed. Rau's Speak Page 23:32, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yea, I like it. Rau's Speak Page 21:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Lightning Bending
In the first paragraph of "Book 2", it's been said "But Zuko is unable to learn because of his mind". The sentence seemed kindda vague to me. In my opinion this version is able to tell the the reader why he couldnt master the lightning at the time : "But Zuko is unable to learn because of his inner conflict". --Fotte (talk) 13:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * That is better. Isn't that what Iroh said? Rau's Speak Page 21:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well if it is Iroh, what can i say :)--Fotte (talk) 15:26, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Season three story
Something that irks me in the section regarding Zuko's story in Season 3 is the sheer length of it compared to the rest of the sections describing Zuko's story (more interesting that the long parts are from episodes that have yet to air in the US). Unfortunately, I for the life of me cannot figure out a way that shortens these to manageable lengths comparable to the previous sections on Seasons 1 and 2 without cutting out what seems to me to be important information. Caterfree10 (talk) 18:26, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Eww, yea, you're right. If I don't get to it, someone else will surely see this (watchlist) and fix the problem. Rau's Speak Page 20:01, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Jin
Where is Jin? I don't see her being mentioned anywhere except in the abilities section. She's very important when it comes to the character's development. Squeeze her in somewhere! Cicaneo


 * She was not very important. She had no more effect on him than Mai. The only characters that help in the characters development are Iroh, Azula and Ozai. Rau's Speak Page 12:14, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Length
Who edited this article putting the template that said that it was "too long"? I think that with the amazing amount of information that was released during the last few episodes of Book 3, the substantial amount of info was needed to explain everything clearly. I vote that we should remove the template on the page, unless someone disagrees? Espilceranul (talk) 10:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree. The article is too long. But only because it lack balance. If you can make the rest of the articles sections about the same length as the plot then it can be removed. But, the sections must be improved not simply longer. I've been meaning to cut down on it, I just keep forgetting. Rau's Speak Page 15:16, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I see your point, I'll try to lengthen the Firebending, Book 1 and Book 2 parts of the article then. Do we have to lengthen all the other articles too (like Aang, Katara, etc.) so that Zuko here isn't too long compared to the others then? Espilceranul (talk) 13:50, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * No... we don't. But, really, if you lengthen them, if we ever try to get it up to GA or FA, long summaries will prevent it from passing. We really just need to shorten the Book 3 section. Rau's Speak Page 18:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Waterbending
I am not sure if this was answered in the article, but in the episode "The Blue Spirit", right before Zuko dispatches the last guard, it is seen that Zuko throws some kind of substance at the last guard. I thought that this was some sort of waterbending at the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.242.88 (talk) 18:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Just watched the scene. I think he just threw the water at the guard. TakaraLioness (talk) 19:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Zuko is not a waterbender. Otherwise, Katara would not have been a challenge, he would not have had the trouble he did at the north pole, and numerous other things. Rau's Speak Page 21:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Other skills
"He is also very strong physically. In The Beach he was able to send Ruon Jian back several meters with a slight push of his palm."

Is it only me who thinks that bolded line isn't valid enough to support the "physically strong" claim? That whole episode was clearly in a different style compared to the other episodes. It felt more comical and much more "anime"-ish with all the visual exagerations and such. Zuko being able to slam Ruon Jian so far away could very likely be just an exageration. There are other examples to support the claim, and I think removing this one wouldn't hurt.--Secretss (talk) 13:58, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Plot
I am redoing the plot section. Unfortuately, because of the way things have been since the finale, I am resorting to doing it in my sandbox. Just a heads up. Rau's Speak Page 07:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I did it. And I intend to focus on other parts. Feel free to help. Rau's Speak Page 07:58, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

So we're getting rid of his relationship with Mai, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.12.156.120 (talk) 02:49, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Personality
Why was the part in his personality about him liking Mai removed? It was just being used as another example of him being able to love deeply, and is just as legitimate as the Iroh and his mother examples. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.168.58.192 (talk) 19:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The knowledge of Mai and Zuko being in a relationship is not critical to the main point, which is defeating the Firelord. Besides having that here would open up the other articles to include "shipping", and would cause too much clutter.  MisterZeppo (talk) 21:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Trivial
Seriously, there is a LOT of trivial information here. When I page down on the other character pages, it's generally 2-3 pages of vague information with few details. Zuko's page is nearly 6 pages long. This NEEDS to get edited down. I understand Zuko-love, he's really a compelling character, but this is ridiculous. You have a bunch of useless information here that is being repeated over and over that don't have anything to do with the overall plot of defeating the Firelord. While the other character pages don't have as many details and spoilers, this one is insanely detailed. I nominate this page be edited down. You don't need all this detail. The "Personality" section is just another character summary and should be cut out. It would be good to get a uniform style between all the character pages. MisterZeppo (talk) 02:39, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Support' I completely agree this article needs major work ,mostly trimming(or may be axing to be more precise). Ziphon (ALLears) 11:38, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It needed trimming, but not that much. Like for instance Western Air Temple, Firebending Masters, the Boiling Rock, and the Southern Raiders each had their own paragraph, and they could be abbreviated to a 1-3 sentences. But Zuko is now the shortest of all the Avatar articles, when he is the most complex of the Avatar characters. He should have a longer article than what it is currently since u are all leaving out very crucial plot elements and making Zuko seem very 1 dimensional. The personality part though is fine since it summarizes it fairly well. I've summarized it down to 5-7 sentences per season instead of like 3. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.227.41.154 (talk) 21:30, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You must remember, only 1 article, Aang's, has a good status. Being the title character you would expect him to have more info out there about him.  Comparisons to the other characters carry no weight as they too need work.  Derekloffin (talk) 21:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Jeez! Who added all the info about Zuko again??  It did need substantial trimming, I just edited it down again (I have it saved so I can keep editing it down if this Zuko wank continues) with a modified version of Derekloffin's last edit.  This isn't about Zuko looking 1 dimensional.  This is about getting the article to the point where it achieves good article standing like Aang's article does.  Aang is the main character, and does not have every tiny detail about him in there.  Yes, Zuko is compelling, but your opinion that he's the most compelling is not good enough.  I know you love Zuko, I love Zuko, but his article can't have every tiny detail about him there because that is considered too "in-universe" and won't allow us to get the page approved as a good article.  Every detail of every episode doesn't need to be spoiled here.  If some new fan comes to this page, they don't need to be spoiled with every tiny detail  If you want to express your Zuko love do that at the Avatar Wiki where you can include every tiny detail.  There is a standard trying to be met on the Wikipedia Avatar Project, and filling Zuko's page with in-universe information won't help reach that goal.  Stop making Zuko's page a book!!!!  MisterZeppo (talk) 04:29, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The article had like 4 sentences per season, so that was definitely bad and you left out alot of important things that happened to Zuko. Minus a few quibbles, this current edit is fine, but the one before was just ridiculous. The only real problem with the article way back in the day was the length of the personality part and that many of the episodes in season 3 that could be summarized in a sentence or two had their own paragraphs, which of course made the article way too long. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.227.41.154 (talk) 18:17, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Age
Why is Zuko's age listed as 16 - 19? Each season of the series spanned a season, not a year, the first season is winter, the second is spring and the third is summer. As of the end of the series, only 9 months have passed, not 3 years. 189.60.129.184 (talk) 18:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

16-19 doesn't imply that he is 16 at the begining of the series and 19 at the end. It means that he is assumed to be between 16 and 19 years of age, given his still youthful appearence. I'm not sure if an official age has ever been given, but he does look to be a teenager.Exilo (talk) 02:10, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

He has been stated both on Nick.com and by several other sources and media, to be sixteen at the beginning of the series. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.242.96.192 (talk) 05:24, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Azula Lying?
I noticed that the article is claiming that Fire Lord Azulon ordered Ozai to kill Zuko. Thing is, I'm not sure if that's ever been confirmed to be true. The only witnesses to Azulon and Ozai's conversation were Azulon, who died shortly thereafter; Ozai, who gained greatly from Azulon's death; and Azula, who often maliciously lies to Zuko for no reason but to cause him pain. The only witness we have that says Azulon made any orders at all is Azula, and she's not really a reliable witness. So is Azulon's order really verifiable enough to be part of the article? -Azathoth117 (talk) 05:03, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Infobox
I'm a visitor, but does the "position" part for the infobox come up as "age" for anyone else? A bug? prank? something else? 203.117.66.237 (talk) 14:56, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Possibly a bug or a prank, but I've fixed it now. Infobox Avatar: The Last Airbender character was wrong, for some reason.  春・<FONT FACE="Maiandra GD" COLOR=#0000FF>Harukaze</FONT>・風 06:30, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Chronology
The last part of Zuko's involvement irks me: "...uncle's tea shop, which marks his last appearance in the series." Is this not the last appearance of everyone (being the end of the series itself)? 203.117.66.237 (talk) 15:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * when he questioned his father to learn whereabouts of his mother, Possibly a hint to a spin-off series for zuko in his quest to searh for his mother, Ursa. The series may have ended but no reason not to continue series with different future storylines --Fotte (talk) 14:28, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Aliases
The whole idea behind Wikipedia is to have as much relevant information on a page as possible. Zuko's alias "Lee" is used in several episodes and he is called such by a variety of characters. His alter ego "The Blue Spirit" is a major part of his character. There is no reason not to have these aliases mentioned. The information takes up little space and is very relevant. Rashu0 (talk) 03:11, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we should centralize this discussion. Feel free to open up a discussion on the talk page of WP:AVATAR. NuclearWarfare  ( Talk ) 03:14, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Season 3 section
I know I talked about this before on this page, but why is the Season 3 section of this article so long compared to the Season 1 and 2 sections of his plot overview? Isn't there some way to clean up that section to make it more comparable in length to the Season 1 and 2 portions? Also, really, no mention of Jin nor Mai anywhere (Jin more in Season 2)? Especially since the latter is his girlfriend in Season 3? What gives? Caterfree10 (talk) 18:12, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

"Agony aunt?"
Guys, hey, what's with the part about Zuko being the gang's "agony aunt?" Just saying, he never struck me as that, at least... Celestialwarden11 (talk) 20:42, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Scar
Why doesn't Zuko have a scar in the movie? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.239.197.157 (talk) 02:00, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * He does have the scar in the movie. It is not quite so obvious, but he definitely has it. Derekloffin (talk) 06:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Ikem
Why isnt Zuko's real father not mentioned at all? Because some fans dont like it?--94.219.199.207 (talk) 20:41, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I just edited zuko's firebending abilities. Does anybody have any questions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.217.220.19 (talk) 03:57, 21 February 2014 (UTC) Maybe that's because Ikem isn't zuko's real father and ozia is! Zuko's mom says that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.217.220.19 (talk) 23:19, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Zuko. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/6CfVPQNOf?url=http://nicktoons.nick.com/shows/avatar/characters/zuko.html to http://nicktoons.nick.com/shows/avatar/characters/zuko.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 04:17, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Zuko
I have just edited my firebending abilities to be more accurate, any questions?

I just made a bunch of great edits and then sine bot deleted them this sucks......

The page makes the silly statement "Zuko has received unanimous acclaim for his character development, with many calling his arc one of the greatest of all time." That's clearly false (heck, I've never acclaimed him, so there's proof right there). It's also making a real-world claim without a citation. However when I edit the page I do not see the text in there... not sure how it slipped in there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:243:1400:310:4197:F222:D9C7:C8A8 (talk) 03:02, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Rewrite
21:47, 27 October 2020 (UTC)Is there content that is missing or content that does not belong? There are contents missing. There needs to be more explanation of Zuko's Firebending abilities, such as his journey with himself, his uncle, and the avatar's group. These are what lead him to his firebending improvements. There's also the need to explain what he chooses to do with his firebending skills. Is it to protect himself? Make other's accept him? Or protect the ones he cares for? How does firebending help him survive in his everyday society? What are his jouney's with using it? What are the benefits and disadvantages of using this ability? Overall, the description of Zuko's firebending abilities is not clear and should be more detailed like to answer the questions above.

This article badly needs to be rewritten and expanded. This article has multiple issues that needs to be improved:


 * Written in-universe.
 * Lacks reliable sources.
 * Lead is a mess.
 * "Abilities" section is unnecessary.
 * The entire article is written like a fanboy's musings rather than an informative, neutral article.

I'll try to remove the unnecessary details for now, but the article still needs a lot of work. <b style="color:green">Da</b><b style="color:red">rk</b><b style="color:gold">Fal</b><b style="color:orange">len</b><b style="color:indigo">Ang</b><b style="color:blue">el</b> (talk) 16:26, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

I'll rewrite this whole article soon. All sections are written in non-encyclopedic style, with no sources or with sources that lacks notability. Zuko is one of the best characters in animation history, so him having a poorly-written article is kind of sad. I plan on removing the "Abilities" section, what's everyone's thoughts on this? <b style="color:green">Da</b><b style="color:red">rk</b><b style="color:gold">Fal</b><b style="color:orange">len</b><b style="color:indigo">Ang</b><b style="color:blue">el</b> (talk) 20:41, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Yep, most character articles kinda seem to need a rewrite. The focus on abilities or weapon seems more fitting in a wiki unless it happens to related to the plot like Cloud Strife's Buster Sword.Tintor2 (talk) 17:01, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 25 January 2021 and 3 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): EvanFG.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 08:52, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Zuko Reunited with his mom.
In the comics, Zuko did find his mom. 24.128.189.166 (talk) 21:29, 30 July 2022 (UTC)