Talk:Zulu Kingdom

tag
The speedy deletion tag was wrong. I accidentally removed it when I added the infobox. A lot more info has been put since the tag was originally placed here. I'm assuming the tag was put cuz there was very little info in the article after the first save. Within an hour of the tag I had the whole article up so there is no need to delete this page.

On another note, there should definately be separate pages for the Zulu and the Zulu Empire, just as there are different pages for the Ashanti and the Ashanti Empire.

Sorry for any confusion.Scott Free (talk) 21:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Requested move
This article has been renamed from Zulu Empire to Zulu Kingdom as the result of a move request. - unopposed move. Keith D (talk) 13:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

This article was incorrectly styled "empire" by me. A translation of the native name and analysis of the state confirm it as a "kingdom". Problem is, there is already a redirect of by the name of Zulu Kingdom. I request that Zulu Empire become the redirect and Zulu Kingdom become the main article. thank you for your time and keep up the good work. Scott Free (talk) 23:06, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Nomination incomplete, creating discussion area. &mdash; Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 01:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Survey

 * Support as English usage; the translation of the native name is not decisive. If English spoke of it as an Empire, the translation would be Empire, just as certain Chinese words are translated Empire and Emperor. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:33, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Support per nominator's reasoning. WHATaintNOcountryIeverHEARDofDOtheySPEAKenglishINwhat (talk) 05:39, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Good start on the article
Good start. Another good reference is JD Omer-Cooper's The Zulu Aftermath. Donald Morris is of course one of the leading guys in the area. Some areas that could be filled out: just some thoughts. Hit me up email for any more project ideas.
 * the Zululand area before Shaka's rise
 * more on SHaka and his system- military and social
 * effect of the Zulu on others- the Mfecane

Gnarlesbarklay (talk) 07:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Explain that the Voortrekkers are the Boers from the Netherlands. Signed by ME — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.199.121.118 (talk) 15:46, 16 March 2012 (UTC) I disagree with ME - the Boers were descendants of not only Dutch settlers from centuries earlier, but also german settlers and French Huguenots fleeing persecution in France. The vast majority of the Boer's ancestors had been settled in the Cape Colony for a considerable period of time — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarahbasson61 (talk • contribs) 09:40, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Wene wa Zulu
The purported native name of the kingdom is obviously wrong on three counts, one a minor orthographical error, one a less minor phonological error, and the other a serious grammatical error.


 * Firstly, the "wa Zulu" part should be written as one word, which I have already done.


 * However, the stem "-Zulu" could either come from the noun "uZulu" or the noun "iZulu", in which case the rules of Nguni vowel coalescence would result in "woZulu" or "weZulu" respectively. The form "waZulu" would imply a noun *"aZulu", which is a non-existant word.


 * The other error is on the form of the first part of the name, "wene". I'm not sure, but my knowledge tells me that this is not a proper isiZulu word, but even if it is it does not CONCORD with the "wa-" possessive prefix of the second noun. If my theoretical knowledge serves me right, the "wa-" possessive concord is only used for classes 1 and 3, implying that the first noun must begin with "umu-" or perhaps "uny-" (with the second u absorbed into the m) as a class prefix (see Sesotho nouns for a more thorough explanation of noun classes and prefixes from a very closely related language). Class 11 with a prefix written "u-" actually has an original "ulu-" prefix, and would cause the possessive concord to be "lwa-" ("lwe-" or "lo-" after coalescence).

Additionally, all Google hits, save one, for the phrase "wene wa zulu" have something to do with Wikipedia (the one exception is some random one sentence comment on some comedy site, and I have a feeling, especially judging from its date, that the author copied the phrase from this Wikipedia article). I'll try to see if I can find out what this name really is, because what's given here can't possibly be a real isiZulu phrase. Otherwise, I'll remove it.

Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 20:45, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I used a very bad translation of my very limited understanding of bantu. at best, kingdom in zulu is "Zwe" (land, country or kingdom). But I have no clue/source on how to put the phrase together. I have heard the phrase "Wene wa Zulu" several times, even in one popular media (the Shaka Zulu miniseries). But that could be wrong, like many things in that film. let's go with your translation until we find something else. Scott Free (talk) 22:00, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the zulu stem should be umuZulu (people of zulu).Scott Free (talk) 22:03, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

What Scott seems to have heard from the mini-series is "Wena weZulu" (you of heaven), a praise name or honorary title of the king. Certainly not the name of the kingdom. In this case "wena" is a pronoun, thus my concern about noun class prefixes does not apply (the "wa-" possessive concord now agrees with the second person singular).

The mystery is solved. I'll remove the phrase from the article.

Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 22:12, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh. "Nation of amaZulu" would be "iZwe lamaZulu" ("izwe" is class 5, original prefix "ili-"). But this would be a phrase that we invented, not necessarily what the people used to call the kingdom, thus I think it would be inappropriate to claim that it is the correct endonym.

Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 22:19, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Flag
The Zulu Kingdom had no national flag, according to these comments at Flags of the World. In case anybody else was looking for one... -Colfer2 (talk) 17:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

History of the Zulu Kingdom
The history of the Zulu Kingdom in this article begins thusly:


 * The rise of the Zulu Kingdom under Shaka
 * Shaka Zulu was the illegitimate son of Senzangakona, chief of the Zulus.

This suggests there was no kingdom until Shaka. However, based on other factors, it seems that the history should start with what the Zulus were under Senzangakona and perhaps before, but I really don't know their history. At the bottom, the article on Shaka's father, Senzangakona ka-Jama, lists him as "Zulu King 1781-1816" thus suggesting that there was a "Kingdom" before Shaka. Yet the article text calls the Zulu "a small clan" and not a kingdom and calls Senzangakhona "a chief." So which is it? There is no indication of how Senzangakona turned a "clan" into a "kingdom." The article Senzangakona's predecessor, Jama kaNdaba, calls him a "High Chief" of the Zulu clan, yet at the bottom it says he was "Zulu King 1763-1781." His predecessor, Ndaba kaMageba', is referred to as "King of the Zulu" both in the text and in the info box at the bottom of the article. Ileanadu (talk) 03:59, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Zulu Kingdom vs Empire
As per above, is there a difference? Juicebaby (talk) 14:14, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

"Bantustan"
The term "Bantustan" in the article is derogatory. --41.151.123.183 (talk) 21:45, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

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is there no history before 1709?
the article seems to be a bit thin on history 91.47.24.183 (talk) 19:28, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Map - sources
I love maps but I’m wondering where the source of this map is from - maybe I missed something, but should there be some reference material? Maybe the 1904EB? 20040302 (talk) 16:34, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

History
What role did King Shaka play in the formation of Zulu Kingdom — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.13.188.1 (talk) 20:08, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

History
Explain the role played by King Shaka in establishing the Zulu regarding king Shaka? 164.151.16.14 (talk) 08:20, 9 May 2024 (UTC)